Hi everyone, got a potential issue with a super-fast monk. High-level campaign, level 16, movement speed 55ft. Just to give you a beginner understanding.
Now listen to this.
As a BA, he can expend a ki point to dash, bringing the movement up to 110ft. It gets worse! He can also cast haste, which DOUBLES his movement. 220ft. Literally faster than Gods. He can also weaponize that speed using velocity strike. Seriously messed up.
Now I as a DM am able to deal with this in many ways and it creates serious power-fantasy moments. however I have banned him from gaining abilities that grant extra speed xD. He is a good sport and admits he burns through ki fast.
But I want to bring it to the community and ask your opinion, does this seem right? What are your takes?
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Starting at 6th level, you can use the speed you build up to unleash a devastating blow against your foe. Once on each of your turns when you hit a creature with a unarmed strike, you can cause the Attack to deal extra thunder damage equal to one roll of your Martial Arts die for every 10 feet of movement you took in a straight line before making the attack.
There have been cases where he's used movement, or simply forgotten to retreat because players are allergic to enemy opportunity attacks. In thses cases the really big Umber Hult has chewed through him xD
Starting at 6th level, you can use the speed you build up to unleash a devastating blow against your foe. Once on each of your turns when you hit a creature with a unarmed strike, you can cause the Attack to deal extra thunder damage equal to one roll of your Martial Arts die for every 10 feet of movement you took in a straight line before making the attack.
Volcity Strick: (No Action
Well, there's your issue. Wildly unbalanced homebrew.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Did your player present it to you as if it were an official subclass? If so, that's definitely worrying and you should definitely have a talk with them.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Monks can get very fast. Some folks have had fun theory crafting the fastest they can get if you stack movement boosts like the mobile feat, haste, boots of speed, tabaxi movement doubling (if you happen to be a tabaxi) and others. It gets VERY fast.
As mentioned, the problem here isn't how fast the monk can move, it is the unbalanced homebrew subclass feature. It is OP but ends up getting a bit limited by the geography and the fact that after the first turn, the character has to both run in then run away again so they can use the attack the next turn. However, the feature has no limit and will likely add on the order of 6d10 once/turn which is excessive. (The feature also scales with martial arts die size so it could be 11d10 or 22d10 if they get their speed up to 220' and have enough room to run that fast straight at an opponent).
Anyway, time to have a chat with the player and see if they can be interested in some other kind of monk ...
For perspective let's take a look at how the damage of the homebrew compares to some examples using official classes.
Let's assume a 3 round combat, 20 in the primary stat, and the recommended AC for a CR16 monster (which is 18). If you want to skip over the details I bolded the final number for each.
Way of the Storm Monk: Round 1: Haste(4 ki), Step of the Wind to position 220ft away from our target if needed(1 ki). Average damage: 0 Round 2: Step of the Wind(1 ki), move 220ft in a straight line to the target and attack with Fist of Lightning(1 ki), attack with Fist of Thunder(1 ki), enemy pushed back 10ft. Average damage: 22d8 + 3d8 + 5 + 2d8 + 5 = 27d8 + 10 Round 3 Step of the Wind(1 ki), move back 100ft then straight at target 110ft and attack with Fist of Lightning(1 ki), attack with Fist of Thunder(1 ki), enemy pushed back 10ft. Average damage: 11d8 + 3d8 + 5 + 2d8 + 5 = 16d8 + 10
That's 43d8 + 20 before factoring in hit and crit chance. After factoring them in the expected damage for the encounter is 148.45 at the cost of 11 ki.
Way of Mercy Monk(I am assuming all ASI's for a 20 Dex and Wis): Round 1: Attack action for 2 weapon attacks, Flurry of Blows for 1 unarmed strikes and one Hands of Harm(1 ki). Average damage: 5d8 + 25 Round 2: Attack action for 2 weapon attacks, Flurry of Blows for 1 unarmed strikes and one Hands of Harm(1 ki). Average damage: 5d8 + 25 Round 3: Attack action for 2 weapon attacks, Flurry of Blows for 1 unarmed strikes and one Hands of Harm(1 ki). Average damage: 5d8 + 25
That's 15d8 + 75 before hit and crit, with them factored in that is an expected damage of 96 at the cost of 3 ki. So for a monk that is a huge uplift.
Monks however are somewhat infamous as poor martial damage dealers, so how does the homebrew compare to a different class? I have analyzed the Path of the Zealot Barbarian before so lets go with that.
Path of the Zealot Barbarian with 20 Strength, Polearm Master, and Great Weapon Master: Round 1: Rage, Reckless Attack, attack twice with GWM: 2d10 + 38 + 1d6 + 8 Round 2: Reckless Attack, Attack twice with GWM and once with PAM+GWM: 2d10 + 38 + 1d6 + 8 + 1d4 + 19 Round 3: Reckless Attack, Attack twice with GWM and once with PAM+GWM: 2d10 + 38 + 1d6 + 8 + 1d4 + 19
That makes for a total of 6d10 + 3d6 + 2d4 + 176. Factoring in hit and crit is a bit more complicated here due to Divine Fury only needing one hit in a turn to proc and this post already has enough numbers, but the naïve way of summing the dice and flat bonuses separately and then treating it like one big hit gets you close enough. The naïve tells us the expected damage is ~155.82, doing it properly though it increases to ~164.65.
So yeah, the homebrew is strong, especially by monk standards. But it burns a LOT of resources doing it and requires a nice open battlefield for all the straight line movements it wants to take. And there are straight class builds that can do better essentially just walking up and swinging.
*Edit* I couldn't help myself and ran the numbers for the updated Way of the Storm and TLDR it is much more practical in terms of the space needed to do its thing but achieves slightly lower damage compared to its earlier version without being as ki intensive. Now, the numbers.
Way of the Storm Monk 1.2: Round 1: Haste(3 ki), Step of the Wind to position 30ft away from our target if needed. Average damage: 0 Round 2: Move 30ft straight towards target for Voltaic Strike(1 use) attack with Fist of Thunder(1ki), enemy pushed back 10ft, back up 20ft and move 30ft straight toward target for another Voltaic Strike(1 use), Flurry of Blows(1 ki) for two more unarmed strikes: 7d8 + 5 + 4d8 + 5 + 2d8 + 10 Round 3: Back up 30ft and then move 30ft straight towards target for Voltaic Strike(1 use) attack with Fist of Thunder(1 ki), enemy pushed back 10ft, back up 20ft and move 30ft straight toward target for another Voltaic Strike(1 use), Flurry of Blows(1 ki) for two more unarmed strikes: 7d8 + 5 + 4d8 + 5 + 2d8 + 10
This totals to 26d8 + 40 and after accounting for hit and crit (remember this versions Voltaic Strike gives the attack advantage as well as bonus damage) we get an expected damage of 139.675. So less than before, but still much better than a straight Way of Mercy Monk. However Voltaic Strike is now long rest limited and this one combat used 4 of our 5 uses on top of 7 ki.
Also note that for Way of Mercy and the original Way of the Storm Monk's math I am assuming no advantage since they don't have a feature to give it to them. If they had advantage from something like Greater Invisibility or Faerie Fire then the Way of Mercy's damage goes up to 131.625 and the original Way of the Storm goes up to 206.2125.
TLDR: Pray your player doesn't take a 2 level dip into Tempest Domain Cleric.
Hi everyone, got a potential issue with a super-fast monk. High-level campaign, level 16, movement speed 55ft. Just to give you a beginner understanding.
Now listen to this.
As a BA, he can expend a ki point to dash, bringing the movement up to 110ft. It gets worse! He can also cast haste, which DOUBLES his movement. 220ft. Literally faster than Gods. He can also weaponize that speed using velocity strike. Seriously messed up.
Now I as a DM am able to deal with this in many ways and it creates serious power-fantasy moments. however I have banned him from gaining abilities that grant extra speed xD. He is a good sport and admits he burns through ki fast.
But I want to bring it to the community and ask your opinion, does this seem right? What are your takes?
What's "velocity strike?"
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
6th-Level Way of the On coming storm.
VOLTAIC STRIKE
Starting at 6th level, you can use the speed you build up to unleash a devastating blow against your foe. Once on each of your turns when you hit a creature with a unarmed strike, you can cause the Attack to deal extra thunder damage equal to one roll of your Martial Arts die for every 10 feet of movement you took in a straight line before making the attack.
Volcity Strick: (No Action
Huge speed builds are usually set up to let you charge in, attack, then retreat out of range.
Without cover, this method is ALMOST as effective as.... using a longbow.
With cover, this method is better than popping out from behind cover and firing a longbow.
Most of the time it is easily defeated by other ranged attacks/casters.
But if it really becomes an issue, you can use:
There have been cases where he's used movement, or simply forgotten to retreat because players are allergic to enemy opportunity attacks. In thses cases the really big Umber Hult has chewed through him xD
Well, there's your issue. Wildly unbalanced homebrew.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Ok I won't lie, I had no idea it was a homebrew, but I'm after searching everywhere and cannot find ANYTHING on it...this could be a problem....
Did your player present it to you as if it were an official subclass? If so, that's definitely worrying and you should definitely have a talk with them.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
It's not like him to lie. If I were to guess he either meant to say it was homebrew and mis-commincated, or he simply overlooked it himself. I'll
Monks can get very fast. Some folks have had fun theory crafting the fastest they can get if you stack movement boosts like the mobile feat, haste, boots of speed, tabaxi movement doubling (if you happen to be a tabaxi) and others. It gets VERY fast.
As mentioned, the problem here isn't how fast the monk can move, it is the unbalanced homebrew subclass feature. It is OP but ends up getting a bit limited by the geography and the fact that after the first turn, the character has to both run in then run away again so they can use the attack the next turn. However, the feature has no limit and will likely add on the order of 6d10 once/turn which is excessive. (The feature also scales with martial arts die size so it could be 11d10 or 22d10 if they get their speed up to 220' and have enough room to run that fast straight at an opponent).
Anyway, time to have a chat with the player and see if they can be interested in some other kind of monk ...
So I found the source of the subclass. From the description and names of the features it looks like your player is using a homebrewed Monk subclass called Way of the Storm. There are two versions posted on reddit I found and it looks like they are using the original here: https://www.reddit.com/r/DnDHomebrew/comments/o75o8w/way_of_the_storm_monk_subclass_strike_like/?rdt=52006
This subclass has since had a newer version posted that seems much better tuned: https://www.reddit.com/r/DnDHomebrew/comments/oahzbb/way_of_the_storm_monk_v_12_ride_the_lightning/
For perspective let's take a look at how the damage of the homebrew compares to some examples using official classes.
Let's assume a 3 round combat, 20 in the primary stat, and the recommended AC for a CR16 monster (which is 18). If you want to skip over the details I bolded the final number for each.
Way of the Storm Monk:
Round 1: Haste(4 ki), Step of the Wind to position 220ft away from our target if needed(1 ki). Average damage: 0
Round 2: Step of the Wind(1 ki), move 220ft in a straight line to the target and attack with Fist of Lightning(1 ki), attack with Fist of Thunder(1 ki), enemy pushed back 10ft. Average damage: 22d8 + 3d8 + 5 + 2d8 + 5 = 27d8 + 10
Round 3 Step of the Wind(1 ki), move back 100ft then straight at target 110ft and attack with Fist of Lightning(1 ki), attack with Fist of Thunder(1 ki), enemy pushed back 10ft. Average damage: 11d8 + 3d8 + 5 + 2d8 + 5 = 16d8 + 10
That's 43d8 + 20 before factoring in hit and crit chance. After factoring them in the expected damage for the encounter is 148.45 at the cost of 11 ki.
Way of Mercy Monk(I am assuming all ASI's for a 20 Dex and Wis):
Round 1: Attack action for 2 weapon attacks, Flurry of Blows for 1 unarmed strikes and one Hands of Harm(1 ki). Average damage: 5d8 + 25
Round 2: Attack action for 2 weapon attacks, Flurry of Blows for 1 unarmed strikes and one Hands of Harm(1 ki). Average damage: 5d8 + 25
Round 3: Attack action for 2 weapon attacks, Flurry of Blows for 1 unarmed strikes and one Hands of Harm(1 ki). Average damage: 5d8 + 25
That's 15d8 + 75 before hit and crit, with them factored in that is an expected damage of 96 at the cost of 3 ki. So for a monk that is a huge uplift.
Monks however are somewhat infamous as poor martial damage dealers, so how does the homebrew compare to a different class? I have analyzed the Path of the Zealot Barbarian before so lets go with that.
Path of the Zealot Barbarian with 20 Strength, Polearm Master, and Great Weapon Master:
Round 1: Rage, Reckless Attack, attack twice with GWM: 2d10 + 38 + 1d6 + 8
Round 2: Reckless Attack, Attack twice with GWM and once with PAM+GWM: 2d10 + 38 + 1d6 + 8 + 1d4 + 19
Round 3: Reckless Attack, Attack twice with GWM and once with PAM+GWM: 2d10 + 38 + 1d6 + 8 + 1d4 + 19
That makes for a total of 6d10 + 3d6 + 2d4 + 176. Factoring in hit and crit is a bit more complicated here due to Divine Fury only needing one hit in a turn to proc and this post already has enough numbers, but the naïve way of summing the dice and flat bonuses separately and then treating it like one big hit gets you close enough. The naïve tells us the expected damage is ~155.82, doing it properly though it increases to ~164.65.
So yeah, the homebrew is strong, especially by monk standards. But it burns a LOT of resources doing it and requires a nice open battlefield for all the straight line movements it wants to take. And there are straight class builds that can do better essentially just walking up and swinging.
*Edit* I couldn't help myself and ran the numbers for the updated Way of the Storm and TLDR it is much more practical in terms of the space needed to do its thing but achieves slightly lower damage compared to its earlier version without being as ki intensive. Now, the numbers.
Way of the Storm Monk 1.2:
Round 1: Haste(3 ki), Step of the Wind to position 30ft away from our target if needed. Average damage: 0
Round 2: Move 30ft straight towards target for Voltaic Strike(1 use) attack with Fist of Thunder(1ki), enemy pushed back 10ft, back up 20ft and move 30ft straight toward target for another Voltaic Strike(1 use), Flurry of Blows(1 ki) for two more unarmed strikes: 7d8 + 5 + 4d8 + 5 + 2d8 + 10
Round 3: Back up 30ft and then move 30ft straight towards target for Voltaic Strike(1 use) attack with Fist of Thunder(1 ki), enemy pushed back 10ft, back up 20ft and move 30ft straight toward target for another Voltaic Strike(1 use), Flurry of Blows(1 ki) for two more unarmed strikes: 7d8 + 5 + 4d8 + 5 + 2d8 + 10
This totals to 26d8 + 40 and after accounting for hit and crit (remember this versions Voltaic Strike gives the attack advantage as well as bonus damage) we get an expected damage of 139.675. So less than before, but still much better than a straight Way of Mercy Monk. However Voltaic Strike is now long rest limited and this one combat used 4 of our 5 uses on top of 7 ki.
Also note that for Way of Mercy and the original Way of the Storm Monk's math I am assuming no advantage since they don't have a feature to give it to them. If they had advantage from something like Greater Invisibility or Faerie Fire then the Way of Mercy's damage goes up to 131.625 and the original Way of the Storm goes up to 206.2125.
TLDR: Pray your player doesn't take a 2 level dip into Tempest Domain Cleric.