As the title asks. If someone sticks their arm through the wall, do I add up the total damage of the wall as one instance? Or if the red layer downs a player, would the orange, yellow and green layer kill the player as separate instances of damage as "a creature attempts to reach into or pass through the wall, it does so one layer at a time through all the wall's layers"?
I would appreciate a RAW answer and your opinions for if a RAI answer would support or go against the RAW answer.
Basically, that answer is yes, forced movement triggers the wall's effects.
However, there's an argument that could be made that forced movement makes it act like an actual wall instead due to the vague wording of the spell.
Basically, ask your DM how it's going to be handled and be consistent.
As for the damage and how it's applied, the best way I can see to handle it (since it's also vague) is: -Forced movement: All applied in sequence, and additional damage after going down is deadly -Willing movement: Can stop at any point if still conscious after taking damage from a layer, but if knocked unconscious, is falling in place and finishing the path through
What possible argument is there about it acting like a wall? Nothing in what I read indicates any of that. It does the damage, it does not stop you. You are not a ranged attack.
It's based on some of the wording in the spell ("attempts") being interpreted as the subject having to be willing in order to pass through and take the damage. Basically it's a scenario test.
Scenario: Character A pushes Character B through the wall.
Results:
1. If the wall doesn't require willingness, B makes 7 Dex saves and goes through the effects.
2. If the wall does require willingness, one of two things happen:
-2a. B gets pushed to the other side harmlessly.
-2b. B remains on their side of the wall.
Being able to push each other through harmlessly is laughably wrong, so 2b is the only option under the willingness interpretation.
So here's the relevant language from the spell description:
When a creature attempts to reach into or pass through the wall, it does so one layer at a time through all the wall's layers. As it passes or reaches through each layer, the creature must make a Dexterity saving throw or be affected by that layer's properties as described below.
So, there is the use of the word "attempts", but I think that's more a reflection of how you need to weather the effects of the wall before, say, a melee attack from one side can hit a target on the other. As a rule, forced movement triggers entry effects, so barring explicit language to the contrary here, I'd say it works the same way.
I'd agree. I'm off the mindset that you take the full effects if forced through the wall. I'm only relaying other opinions I've seen and the reasoning given for them.
I see. My biggest logic that made it seem weird is someone stopping themselves 1/7th of an inch and accurately being able to back off to avoid further damage from the other layers but I suppose that's how it'll be. I appreciate the help.
(Also I am the dm so I was looking for outside help to decide how the spell should act and I will have it do separate instances of damage but one can stop themselves between layers if they willing move towards it.)
I see. My biggest logic that made it seem weird is someone stopping themselves 1/7th of an inch and accurately being able to back off to avoid further damage from the other layers but I suppose that's how it'll be. I appreciate the help.
(Also I am the dm so I was looking for outside help to decide how the spell should act and I will have it do separate instances of damage but one can stop themselves between layers if they willing move towards it.)
It's more that a character could, hypothetically, move in slowly (hence the Dex save) and pull away when injured, like placing your hand on a hot surface and pulling away quickly.
The major effect of it being multiple layers is that you can't use the 50d6 damage to trigger death from major damage (and 10d6 is grossly unlikely to trigger that rule on any character that might encounter a prismatic wall), but if a character gets reduced to 0 hp by the first few layers of the wall the additional layers will add death saves (so if the first two levels drop the character to 0, the remaining three will pile on three death saves for instant death).
The way death checks interact with multiple damage instances is poorly addressed in the rules, though.
In my head, the Prismatic wall describes each different colour of the wall as a wall the width of a single strand of hair. So all seven elements combine to make something that is really thin. That's 0.35mm (or for those in the US, 0.00001378 of an inch!). So effectively it's all going to happen at once.
[Rules as Written the wall is actually a single inch thick]
Even if we say however that each of the seven elements of the wall are a single Centimetre that's still only 7cm thickness which is less than the length of a hand. Basically to my mind, by the time someone has put any part of their body inside the wall they're not getting the reaction time to stop because by the time they feel the pain they are already either through the wall or may as well be. They get their saving throws but they aren't failing the first one and then deciding to pull back - the wall is too thin for that to work.
That's how I rule it anyhow. You touch it, you're going to take damage and you're going to roll the saving throws for each and every single element of the wall. No ifs, no buts. Practically speaking by the time a character is able to cast such a spell (remember that this is a 9th level spell here), they've got the deck thoroughly stacked in their favour and really don't have an excuse to try and come up with solutions around it. They'll likely survive it and any enemies they force to push through the wall are going to die. No ifs, no buts, that spell is as much a menace as wish can be in my opinion (in a good way though).
The way the spell is written however, I think it's basically meant to be that you roll each element of the wall separately. As Pantagruel points out, this prevents death by massive damage - there's multiple chances to survive this thing.
9th Level spells should be scary, they should be difficult to get around. They are the gift to the player who has levelled that high and earnt them. They should be really powerful and to me that means that nope, you aren't choosing to back out after the first 1/7th of an inch. If that doesn't work for your table, so be it...I just thought I'd chime in on how I tend to use it.
As the title asks. If someone sticks their arm through the wall, do I add up the total damage of the wall as one instance? Or if the red layer downs a player, would the orange, yellow and green layer kill the player as separate instances of damage as "a creature attempts to reach into or pass through the wall, it does so one layer at a time through all the wall's layers"?
I would appreciate a RAW answer and your opinions for if a RAI answer would support or go against the RAW answer.
The closest I see to a RAW or RAI answer from Wizards is this tweet from former designer Dan Dillon, along with this one. For what it's worth, he was hired after the PHB came out.
Basically, that answer is yes, forced movement triggers the wall's effects.
However, there's an argument that could be made that forced movement makes it act like an actual wall instead due to the vague wording of the spell.
Basically, ask your DM how it's going to be handled and be consistent.
As for the damage and how it's applied, the best way I can see to handle it (since it's also vague) is:
-Forced movement: All applied in sequence, and additional damage after going down is deadly
-Willing movement: Can stop at any point if still conscious after taking damage from a layer, but if knocked unconscious, is falling in place and finishing the path through
What possible argument is there about it acting like a wall? Nothing in what I read indicates any of that. It does the damage, it does not stop you. You are not a ranged attack.
It's based on some of the wording in the spell ("attempts") being interpreted as the subject having to be willing in order to pass through and take the damage. Basically it's a scenario test.
Scenario: Character A pushes Character B through the wall.
Results:
1. If the wall doesn't require willingness, B makes 7 Dex saves and goes through the effects.
2. If the wall does require willingness, one of two things happen:
-2a. B gets pushed to the other side harmlessly.
-2b. B remains on their side of the wall.
Being able to push each other through harmlessly is laughably wrong, so 2b is the only option under the willingness interpretation.
So here's the relevant language from the spell description:
So, there is the use of the word "attempts", but I think that's more a reflection of how you need to weather the effects of the wall before, say, a melee attack from one side can hit a target on the other. As a rule, forced movement triggers entry effects, so barring explicit language to the contrary here, I'd say it works the same way.
I'd agree. I'm off the mindset that you take the full effects if forced through the wall. I'm only relaying other opinions I've seen and the reasoning given for them.
I see. My biggest logic that made it seem weird is someone stopping themselves 1/7th of an inch and accurately being able to back off to avoid further damage from the other layers but I suppose that's how it'll be. I appreciate the help.
(Also I am the dm so I was looking for outside help to decide how the spell should act and I will have it do separate instances of damage but one can stop themselves between layers if they willing move towards it.)
It's more that a character could, hypothetically, move in slowly (hence the Dex save) and pull away when injured, like placing your hand on a hot surface and pulling away quickly.
The major effect of it being multiple layers is that you can't use the 50d6 damage to trigger death from major damage (and 10d6 is grossly unlikely to trigger that rule on any character that might encounter a prismatic wall), but if a character gets reduced to 0 hp by the first few layers of the wall the additional layers will add death saves (so if the first two levels drop the character to 0, the remaining three will pile on three death saves for instant death).
The way death checks interact with multiple damage instances is poorly addressed in the rules, though.
In my head, the Prismatic wall describes each different colour of the wall as a wall the width of a single strand of hair. So all seven elements combine to make something that is really thin. That's 0.35mm (or for those in the US, 0.00001378 of an inch!). So effectively it's all going to happen at once.
[Rules as Written the wall is actually a single inch thick]
Even if we say however that each of the seven elements of the wall are a single Centimetre that's still only 7cm thickness which is less than the length of a hand. Basically to my mind, by the time someone has put any part of their body inside the wall they're not getting the reaction time to stop because by the time they feel the pain they are already either through the wall or may as well be. They get their saving throws but they aren't failing the first one and then deciding to pull back - the wall is too thin for that to work.
That's how I rule it anyhow. You touch it, you're going to take damage and you're going to roll the saving throws for each and every single element of the wall. No ifs, no buts. Practically speaking by the time a character is able to cast such a spell (remember that this is a 9th level spell here), they've got the deck thoroughly stacked in their favour and really don't have an excuse to try and come up with solutions around it. They'll likely survive it and any enemies they force to push through the wall are going to die. No ifs, no buts, that spell is as much a menace as wish can be in my opinion (in a good way though).
The way the spell is written however, I think it's basically meant to be that you roll each element of the wall separately. As Pantagruel points out, this prevents death by massive damage - there's multiple chances to survive this thing.
9th Level spells should be scary, they should be difficult to get around. They are the gift to the player who has levelled that high and earnt them. They should be really powerful and to me that means that nope, you aren't choosing to back out after the first 1/7th of an inch. If that doesn't work for your table, so be it...I just thought I'd chime in on how I tend to use it.
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