So, a person has a Counterspell scroll on their person. While the casting time is a reaction, does that include pulling out scroll or would one have to already have it in hand?
I figured it was similar to needing a weapon drawn in order to use it during an Opportunity Attack, but then the rules on that aren't clear either and one could easily interpret is as "you draw it as part of the attack".
Previous threads on this matter mostly dealt with the casting of the spell, not the action of retrieving the scroll itself. The ones that did discuss it didnt go into any detail about why they thought one way or the other, implying the answer was obvious yet not quoting a source.
That's how I read it, but my party mate seemed to think "free is free", stating you could speak when it was not your turn (RAW seems to say otherwise, but I think this is mostly ignored.)
He also showed a screenshot of tweet "Does that mean you can use some scrolls as a reaction?" to which Jeremy Crawford replied "Yes."
Tried to explain that this did not resolve the need to produce the scroll itself.
I am a fellow party member, so the issue is mostly for my own understanding.
The DM has yet to weigh in, but he did question how the player was using a scroll as a reaction. It then turned out he couldn't do it either way, so the matter never really got resolved.
I am a fellow party member, so the issue is mostly for my own understanding.
The DM has yet to weigh in, but he did question how the player was using a scroll as a reaction. It then turned out he couldn't do it either way, so the matter never really got resolved.
DxJxC is correct. There are several ways to walk around with the scroll out, like being a Loxodon, but you can't pull the scroll out as part of the cast. You could ready an action to pull the scroll out and cast it.
The only real use for a counterspell scroll is for a wizard to copy it into their spellbook. Either that or you walk around with it in your hand.
Nothing stops you from taking the scroll out ahead of the enemy wizard in anticipation of using it to counter spell though, they have their uses but yeah they require some thought rather than some other scrolls
He also showed a screenshot of tweet "Does that mean you can use some scrolls as a reaction?" to which Jeremy Crawford replied "Yes."
This gets to one of my points of friction about these tweets that I hear about so much ...
The tweet is not exactly an answer to the question you are asking. So often I see a question, usually here, and someone will throw in a quote or tween from Jeremy C. but the question he specifically answered is not the question on the table. But the folks that present the quote wish to represent it as if it is. In this case, your question is:
May a PC retrieve a scroll and cast Counterspell as a reaction? I think the question Jeremy C. answered does not include the "retrieve a scroll and ..." part so his answer does not apply to this situation.
But there are many other examples of this happening and I feel it results in hard feelings on both sides.
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Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
Yes using a reaction scroll spell can be use as a reaction here are the facts.
1rst the player handbook errata reads the action use a scroll spell as follow:
A spell scroll bears the words of a single spell, written in a mystical cipher. If the spell is on your class’s spell list, you can read the scroll and cast its spell without providing any material components. Otherwise, the scroll is unintelligible. Casting the spell by reading the scroll requires the spell’s normal casting time. Once the spell is cast, the words on the scroll fade, and it crumbles to dust. If the casting is interrupted, the scroll is not lost.
As you can read using the scroll, requires the exact same time as casting the spell.
Its also backed up with a sentence we see on p7 of the player handbook:
This book contains rules, especially in part 2 and 3, that govern how the game plays. That said, many racial traits, class features, spells, MAGIC ITEMS, monster abilities, and other game elements break the general rules in some way, creating an exception to how the rest of the game works. Remember this: If a specific rule contradicts à general rule, the specific rule wins.
In this case the scroll is a MAGIC ITEM, which is use to cast a spell and like said earlier the use a scroll takes the same time as the spell itself.
Another example for this is featherfall which is a reaction spell needing a feather as component of the spell. The component is fetch in the component pouch as part of casting the spell.
Reactions
Some spells can be cast as reactions. These spells take a fraction of a second to bring about and are cast in response to some event. If a spell can be cast as a reaction, the spell description tells you exactly when you can do so.
Again if a spell is to be use as a reaction you follow is description that's all and no the material doesn't need to be in hand before casting you just need to have it accessible as the spell rule says it.
Material (M)
Casting some spells requires particular objects, specified in parentheses in the component entry. A character can use a component pouch or a spellcasting focus (found in “Equipment”) in place of the components specified for a spell. But if a cost is indicated for a component, a character must have that specific component before he or she can cast the spell.
If a spell states that a material component is consumed by the spell, the caster must provide this component for each casting of the spell. A spellcaster must have a hand free to access a spell's material components -- or to hold a spellcasting focus -- but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components.
As confirmed with the player handbook rules on spell with material you just need to have the material prior to casting the spell and it never mention that it needs to be in hands. You do need a free hand to use it.
Yes using a reaction scroll spell can be use as a reaction here are the facts.
1rst the player handbook errata reads the action use a scroll spell as follow:
A spell scroll bears the words of a single spell, written in a mystical cipher. If the spell is on your class’s spell list, you can read the scroll and cast its spell without providing any material components. Otherwise, the scroll is unintelligible. Casting the spell by reading the scroll requires the spell’s normal casting time. Once the spell is cast, the words on the scroll fade, and it crumbles to dust. If the casting is interrupted, the scroll is not lost.
As you can read using the scroll, requires the exact same time as casting the spell.
Its also backed up with a sentence we see on p7 of the player handbook:
This book contains rules, especially in part 2 and 3, that govern how the game plays. That said, many racial traits, class features, spells, MAGIC ITEMS, monster abilities, and other game elements break the general rules in some way, creating an exception to how the rest of the game works. Remember this: If a specific rule contradicts à general rule, the specific rule wins.
In this case the scroll is a MAGIC ITEM, which is use to cast a spell and like said earlier the use a scroll takes the same time as the spell itself.
Another example for this is featherfall which is a reaction spell needing a feather as component of the spell. The component is fetch in the component pouch as part of casting the spell.
Reactions
Some spells can be cast as reactions. These spells take a fraction of a second to bring about and are cast in response to some event. If a spell can be cast as a reaction, the spell description tells you exactly when you can do so.
Again if a spell is to be use as a reaction you follow is description that's all and no the material doesn't need to be in hand before casting you just need to have it accessible as the spell rule says it.
Material (M)
Casting some spells requires particular objects, specified in parentheses in the component entry. A character can use a component pouch or a spellcasting focus (found in “Equipment”) in place of the components specified for a spell. But if a cost is indicated for a component, a character must have that specific component before he or she can cast the spell.
If a spell states that a material component is consumed by the spell, the caster must provide this component for each casting of the spell. A spellcaster must have a hand free to access a spell's material components -- or to hold a spellcasting focus -- but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components.
As confirmed with the player handbook rules on spell with material you just need to have the material prior to casting the spell and it never mention that it needs to be in hands. You do need a free hand to use it.
Maybe I missed it in your very long wall of text, but did you address the main problem of only being able to take out the item on your turn?
We all agreed that you can use an item you are holding a year ago.
The Item like you said is a spell scroll, witch is a magic item. So far I guess there is non confusion...
Since the use a spell scroll rule clearly states that it takes the SAME time tu use the spell scroll as casting the spell. Yes you can cast it as a reaction, as long as the scroll is within reach like a component pouch!
Since the use a spell scroll rule clearly states that it takes the SAME time tu use the spell scroll as casting the spell
The rule, that you just posted, actually says
Casting the spell by reading the scroll requires the spell’s normal casting time.
You can't read something that isn't already in your hand
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
The Item like you said is a spell scroll, witch is a magic item. So far I guess there is non confusion...
Since the use a spell scroll rule clearly states that it takes the SAME time tu use the spell scroll as casting the spell. Yes you can cast it as a reaction, as long as the scroll is within reach like a component pouch!
Base on the specific beats general rule.
Hope it is clearer for you.
At least the point of confusion is clearer.
Where in the rules does it say using a magic item only needs to be within reach like a component pouch?
The Item like you said is a spell scroll, witch is a magic item. So far I guess there is non confusion...
Since the use a spell scroll rule clearly states that it takes the SAME time tu use the spell scroll as casting the spell. Yes you can cast it as a reaction, as long as the scroll is within reach like a component pouch!
Base on the specific beats general rule.
Hope it is clearer for you.
There are a few points here that are debatable.
1) The description for how a Spell Scroll is used does not state that retrieving the scroll from where it is stored is part of the action of casting the spell from it.
2) The rules governing Material Components and Object Interactions are different rules and it isn't obvious which applies here.
3) Counterspell specifically only has a Somatic component, though Feather Fall has Material and Verbal components.
Another example to think about is can an Eldritch Knight cast Counterspell as a reaction if they are holding a sword and shield? Many people consider dropping a held object like a sword as taking no appreciable effort but this is its own topic of debate.
The Material Component rule does establish a precedent that retrieving items can be part of the action to cast a spell and Feather Fall is an example of this happening in the specific context of retrieving spell components as part of a reaction.
Ultimately what sells me on allowing spell scrolls with reaction spells on them to be drawn and cast as a reaction is that otherwise the magic item is effectively useless for its intended purpose. For games that don't allow it then the only use for such scrolls is to try to copy them into a spellbook. In this case the magic item spell scroll is strictly worse than a mundane scroll with the spell fully transcribed on it as the mundane scroll doesn't have the risk of failure when copying it.
The Item like you said is a spell scroll, witch is a magic item. So far I guess there is non confusion...
Since the use a spell scroll rule clearly states that it takes the SAME time tu use the spell scroll as casting the spell. Yes you can cast it as a reaction, as long as the scroll is within reach like a component pouch!
Base on the specific beats general rule.
Hope it is clearer for you.
At least the point of confusion is clearer.
Where in the rules does it say using a magic item only needs to be within reach like a component pouch?
I'll ask you the same question, where does the rules says it needs to be in hand prior to using it??! As mentionned by Fangeye, the best example of that is featherfall which uses a material component in the reaction which is obtained in the motion of casting the spell.
Same thing goes for the scroll, since the ruling is that using the scroll only take the casting time of that spell.
To quote famous Jeremy crawford :
Feather fall, like many things in D&D, creates an exception: it lets you cast a spell as a reaction to slow someone's fall. If a spell or other exceptional thing in the game says it does something, that's what it does.
Another example to think about is can an Eldritch Knight cast Counterspell as a reaction if they are holding a sword and shield?
That example gives a perfect illustration of the exact opposite point from the one you're trying to make.
If an Eldritch Knight has counterspell in their known spells (with only a V component), then sure, they can cast it while their hands are full, since they just need to be able to speak.
If they don't know it and have to cast it from a scroll... how the heck are they reading the scroll while holding a sword and shield?
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
The Item like you said is a spell scroll, witch is a magic item. So far I guess there is non confusion...
Since the use a spell scroll rule clearly states that it takes the SAME time tu use the spell scroll as casting the spell. Yes you can cast it as a reaction, as long as the scroll is within reach like a component pouch!
Base on the specific beats general rule.
Hope it is clearer for you.
At least the point of confusion is clearer.
Where in the rules does it say using a magic item only needs to be within reach like a component pouch?
I'll ask you the same question, where does the rules says it needs to be in hand prior to using it??! As mentionned by Fangeye, the best example of that is featherfall which uses a material component in the reaction which is obtained in the motion of casting the spell.
Same thing goes for the scroll, since the ruling is that using the scroll only take the casting time of that spell.
But in order to cast the spell from the scroll, you need to read it (according to scroll's rules). To read it, it needs to not be stored on your person (no rule, just very basic logic). To move an object from storage to where it can be handled/read requires an item interaction that can only be done on your turn not as part of a reaction.
And there are no specific rules that change this (no, casting time does not change object interaction rules. Material component rules do, but that is not applicable to scrolls).
The Item like you said is a spell scroll, witch is a magic item. So far I guess there is non confusion...
Since the use a spell scroll rule clearly states that it takes the SAME time tu use the spell scroll as casting the spell. Yes you can cast it as a reaction, as long as the scroll is within reach like a component pouch!
Base on the specific beats general rule.
Hope it is clearer for you.
At least the point of confusion is clearer.
Where in the rules does it say using a magic item only needs to be within reach like a component pouch?
I'll ask you the same question, where does the rules says it needs to be in hand prior to using it??! As mentionned by Fangeye, the best example of that is featherfall which uses a material component in the reaction which is obtained in the motion of casting the spell.
Same thing goes for the scroll, since the ruling is that using the scroll only take the casting time of that spell.
To quote famous Jeremy crawford :
Feather fall, like many things in D&D, creates an exception: it lets you cast a spell as a reaction to slow someone's fall. If a spell or other exceptional thing in the game says it does something, that's what it does.
Ok, so the scroll is on a table between two people equidistant from it. Does this mean that they can both use it simultaneously, since it is an interrupt and thus, in theory, both could? It is not unreasonable for using something to require it being readily available to manipulate. If you are carrying scrolls on your gear externally, unprotected by any sealed scroll tubes, good luck on them surviving much at all.
You keep quoting spell descriptions, completely glossing over that scrolls are actual physical objects that let you cast spells. So are wands. So are staves. It is not a question of whether you could use such a thing when it is in convenient reach to be appropriately wielded, but how you are arranging your gear to facilitate this reasonably.
There is no scroll equivalent to a component pouch. There simply isn't.
No they can't both use it, here is why as stated in the use a scroll description :
Once the spell is cast, the words on the scroll fade, and it crumbles to dust. If the casting is interrupted, the scroll is not lost.
That's for 1, for 2 player initiave, one plays before the other also for 3 the rules for scroll is a specific rule! which wins over general rules p.7 of player handbook
Again here is the spell scroll use description :
A spell scroll bears the words of a single spell, written in a mystical cipher. If the spell is on your class’s spell list, you can read the scroll and cast its spell without providing any material components. Otherwise, the scroll is unintelligible. Casting the spell by reading the scroll requires the spell’s normal casting time.
So, a person has a Counterspell scroll on their person. While the casting time is a reaction, does that include pulling out scroll or would one have to already have it in hand?
I figured it was similar to needing a weapon drawn in order to use it during an Opportunity Attack, but then the rules on that aren't clear either and one could easily interpret is as "you draw it as part of the attack".
Previous threads on this matter mostly dealt with the casting of the spell, not the action of retrieving the scroll itself. The ones that did discuss it didnt go into any detail about why they thought one way or the other, implying the answer was obvious yet not quoting a source.
Requiring you to retrieve it in advance would certainly limit its usefulness.
You can't use an item you are not holding. You can only take out items during your turn. It does seem pretty straightforward.
If you want a specific rules quote have this one:
That's how I read it, but my party mate seemed to think "free is free", stating you could speak when it was not your turn (RAW seems to say otherwise, but I think this is mostly ignored.)
He also showed a screenshot of tweet "Does that mean you can use some scrolls as a reaction?" to which Jeremy Crawford replied "Yes."
Tried to explain that this did not resolve the need to produce the scroll itself.
The only real use for a counterspell scroll is for a wizard to copy it into their spellbook. Either that or you walk around with it in your hand.
I am a fellow party member, so the issue is mostly for my own understanding.
The DM has yet to weigh in, but he did question how the player was using a scroll as a reaction. It then turned out he couldn't do it either way, so the matter never really got resolved.
DxJxC is correct. There are several ways to walk around with the scroll out, like being a Loxodon, but you can't pull the scroll out as part of the cast. You could ready an action to pull the scroll out and cast it.
Nothing stops you from taking the scroll out ahead of the enemy wizard in anticipation of using it to counter spell though, they have their uses but yeah they require some thought rather than some other scrolls
Tweet:
He also showed a screenshot of tweet "Does that mean you can use some scrolls as a reaction?" to which Jeremy Crawford replied "Yes."
This gets to one of my points of friction about these tweets that I hear about so much ...
The tweet is not exactly an answer to the question you are asking. So often I see a question, usually here, and someone will throw in a quote or tween from Jeremy C. but the question he specifically answered is not the question on the table. But the folks that present the quote wish to represent it as if it is. In this case, your question is:
May a PC retrieve a scroll and cast Counterspell as a reaction? I think the question Jeremy C. answered does not include the "retrieve a scroll and ..." part so his answer does not apply to this situation.
But there are many other examples of this happening and I feel it results in hard feelings on both sides.
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
Yes using a reaction scroll spell can be use as a reaction here are the facts.
1rst the player handbook errata reads the action use a scroll spell as follow:
A spell scroll bears the words of a single spell, written in a mystical cipher. If the spell is on your class’s spell list, you can read the scroll and cast its spell without providing any material components. Otherwise, the scroll is unintelligible. Casting the spell by reading the scroll requires the spell’s normal casting time. Once the spell is cast, the words on the scroll fade, and it crumbles to dust. If the casting is interrupted, the scroll is not lost.
As you can read using the scroll, requires the exact same time as casting the spell.
Its also backed up with a sentence we see on p7 of the player handbook:
This book contains rules, especially in part 2 and 3, that govern how the game plays. That said, many racial traits, class features, spells, MAGIC ITEMS, monster abilities, and other game elements break the general rules in some way, creating an exception to how the rest of the game works. Remember this: If a specific rule contradicts à general rule, the specific rule wins.
In this case the scroll is a MAGIC ITEM, which is use to cast a spell and like said earlier the use a scroll takes the same time as the spell itself.
Another example for this is featherfall which is a reaction spell needing a feather as component of the spell. The component is fetch in the component pouch as part of casting the spell.
Reactions
Some spells can be cast as reactions. These spells take a fraction of a second to bring about and are cast in response to some event. If a spell can be cast as a reaction, the spell description tells you exactly when you can do so.
Again if a spell is to be use as a reaction you follow is description that's all and no the material doesn't need to be in hand before casting you just need to have it accessible as the spell rule says it.
Material (M)
Casting some spells requires particular objects, specified in parentheses in the component entry. A character can use a component pouch or a spellcasting focus (found in “Equipment”) in place of the components specified for a spell. But if a cost is indicated for a component, a character must have that specific component before he or she can cast the spell.
If a spell states that a material component is consumed by the spell, the caster must provide this component for each casting of the spell. A spellcaster must have a hand free to access a spell's material components -- or to hold a spellcasting focus -- but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components.
As confirmed with the player handbook rules on spell with material you just need to have the material prior to casting the spell and it never mention that it needs to be in hands. You do need a free hand to use it.
Maybe I missed it in your very long wall of text, but did you address the main problem of only being able to take out the item on your turn?
We all agreed that you can use an item you are holding a year ago.
Yes I did!
The Item like you said is a spell scroll, witch is a magic item. So far I guess there is non confusion...
Since the use a spell scroll rule clearly states that it takes the SAME time tu use the spell scroll as casting the spell. Yes you can cast it as a reaction, as long as the scroll is within reach like a component pouch!
Base on the specific beats general rule.
Hope it is clearer for you.
The spell scroll is not a material component to the spell appearing on it.
The rule, that you just posted, actually says
You can't read something that isn't already in your hand
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
At least the point of confusion is clearer.
Where in the rules does it say using a magic item only needs to be within reach like a component pouch?
There are a few points here that are debatable.
1) The description for how a Spell Scroll is used does not state that retrieving the scroll from where it is stored is part of the action of casting the spell from it.
2) The rules governing Material Components and Object Interactions are different rules and it isn't obvious which applies here.
3) Counterspell specifically only has a Somatic component, though Feather Fall has Material and Verbal components.
Another example to think about is can an Eldritch Knight cast Counterspell as a reaction if they are holding a sword and shield? Many people consider dropping a held object like a sword as taking no appreciable effort but this is its own topic of debate.
The Material Component rule does establish a precedent that retrieving items can be part of the action to cast a spell and Feather Fall is an example of this happening in the specific context of retrieving spell components as part of a reaction.
Ultimately what sells me on allowing spell scrolls with reaction spells on them to be drawn and cast as a reaction is that otherwise the magic item is effectively useless for its intended purpose. For games that don't allow it then the only use for such scrolls is to try to copy them into a spellbook. In this case the magic item spell scroll is strictly worse than a mundane scroll with the spell fully transcribed on it as the mundane scroll doesn't have the risk of failure when copying it.
I'll ask you the same question, where does the rules says it needs to be in hand prior to using it??! As mentionned by Fangeye, the best example of that is featherfall which uses a material component in the reaction which is obtained in the motion of casting the spell.
Same thing goes for the scroll, since the ruling is that using the scroll only take the casting time of that spell.
To quote famous Jeremy crawford :
Feather fall, like many things in D&D, creates an exception: it lets you cast a spell as a reaction to slow someone's fall. If a spell or other exceptional thing in the game says it does something, that's what it does.
https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/1128447267466240000?t=qXqQkI08_oN7BNs_rybSEQ&s=19
I've added the tweet link in case
That example gives a perfect illustration of the exact opposite point from the one you're trying to make.
If an Eldritch Knight has counterspell in their known spells (with only a V component), then sure, they can cast it while their hands are full, since they just need to be able to speak.
If they don't know it and have to cast it from a scroll... how the heck are they reading the scroll while holding a sword and shield?
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
But in order to cast the spell from the scroll, you need to read it (according to scroll's rules). To read it, it needs to not be stored on your person (no rule, just very basic logic). To move an object from storage to where it can be handled/read requires an item interaction that can only be done on your turn not as part of a reaction.
And there are no specific rules that change this (no, casting time does not change object interaction rules. Material component rules do, but that is not applicable to scrolls).
No they can't both use it, here is why as stated in the use a scroll description :
Once the spell is cast, the words on the scroll fade, and it crumbles to dust. If the casting is interrupted, the scroll is not lost.
That's for 1, for 2 player initiave, one plays before the other also for 3 the rules for scroll is a specific rule! which wins over general rules p.7 of player handbook
Again here is the spell scroll use description :
A spell scroll bears the words of a single spell, written in a mystical cipher. If the spell is on your class’s spell list, you can read the scroll and cast its spell without providing any material components. Otherwise, the scroll is unintelligible. Casting the spell by reading the scroll requires the spell’s normal casting time.
Again Jeremy Crawford did clarify it:
The DMG errata clarifies that casting a spell from a spell scroll requires the spell's normal casting time: https://t.co/7cBE3UUIDe #DnD https://t.co/6V6JFb9XkC
Here is the link :
https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/790606333112299520?t=hdJ0NP0ls2-1Y6QLzi5Rpw&s=19
Also in the same post someone ask if a shield on a scroll could be cast in reaction and the answer is YES.