I have a party approaching an Ettercap lair in the forest. The ranger is casting Pass without trace.
Under Ettercap it states: Web Sense. While in contact with a web, the Ettercap knows the exact location of any other creature in contact with the same web.
However, since you're not leaving a trace would you alert the Ettercap to the party's approach and location, same for giant spiders etc? And to expand on that, would snares and other traps/ tripwires in a forest be circumvented.
...hm. I think this would fall into Specific Beats General.
To clarify: Pass Without Trace is more specific than the Ettercap's general ability of Web Sense.
So, because no trace or tracks of their passage is left, unless the Ettercap sees them or otherwise manages to overcome their Stealth check, their Web Sense will not work.
And since the breaking of a tripwire would be a "trace" of their passage, I think that the tripwires would be ineffective too, maybe. but that's idle musing on my part.
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Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
Not leaving trace or track makes me think pass without trace stops creatures knowing where you WERE. To help prevent them knowing where you ARE you get a +10 to stealth.
The Ettercap need to be in contact with the Web so I would view this as something like tremor sense, no matter how stealthy you are the Ettercap knows your position.
Not leaving trace or track makes me think pass without trace stops creatures knowing where you WERE. To help prevent them knowing where you ARE you get a +10 to stealth.
The Ettercap need to be in contact with the Web so I would view this as something like tremor sense, no matter how stealthy you are the Ettercap knows your position.
I can see that, and I don't disagree. It really is coming down to DM fiat here.
That said, you raise a REALLY good argument and it's kinda swaying me a bit too. lol
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Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
I'd agree with Jegpeg. Mechanically, all Pass without Trace does is add +10 to your stealth checks and prevents you from leaving tracks or trace of your passage.
"A veil of shadows and silence radiates from you, masking you and your companions from detection. For the duration, each creature you choose within 30 feet of you (including you) has a +10 bonus to Dexterity (Stealth) checks and can't be tracked except by magical means. A creature that receives this bonus leaves behind no tracks or other traces of its passage."
Pass without trace does not prevent your feet from touching the webs or the ground. It doesn't help if someone just LOOKS at you since if you can be seen clearly you can't hide and a stealth check is irrelevant.
There is nothing in Pass without Trace that would interfere with Web Sense:
"Web Sense. While in contact with a web, the Ettercap knows the exact location of any other creature in contact with the same web."
So, the ettercap would be completely aware of the location of the ranger and others affected by Pass without Trace if they are in contact with the same web.
I was in agreement until you pointed something out, and I think there is a counter argument to your point after you stated the spell description.
A veil of shadows and silence radiates from you, masking you and your companions from detection.
Detection being the point here. Sound is just vibrations in air so it's not much of a stretch that the spider webs are "muted" in the same sense, especially if they also leave no trace in it's passing.
On a side note: I'd also argue your point about it not helping someone just looking at you since it states the "A veil of shadows and silence radiates from you". Unless someone says "I want to look at that shadow over there" I think it might help a bit. There are instances where people in an open area is missed because your eyes expect to see nothing so will browse over them.
I'd rule that Pass without Trace trumps Web Sense because it can't be tracked except by magical means, which it isn't.
The target leaves behind no tracks or other traces of its passage for the ettercap to know the exact location of any other creature in contact with its web.
I'd rule that Pass without Trace trumps Web Sense because it can't be tracked except by magical means, which it isn't.
The target leaves behind no tracks or other traces of its passage for the ettercap to know the exact location of any other creature in contact with its web.
Ultimately it is a DM call but I tend to disagree.
The target "leaves behind" no tracks or traces of its passage. This does not mean its passage is not noticeable as the tracks are being made. Leaving something behind is not the same as making them. In addition, this refers to making tracks/traces of its passage and tracking .. not immediately sensing the presence of the creature.
For example, Pass without Trace provides no benefit at all if a creature is in an open field or can be seen clearly. The fluff text describes a veil of shadows and silence that masks the creatures from detection. However, nothing in the spell changes the basic requirements for a hide check. If a creature can be seen, it can't hide and pass without trace does nothing. In addition, even the name of the spell states what it does - you don't leave behind traces of your passage - it does not say that such passage is utterly silent, that your feet don't touch the ground, that there is no pressure exerted on anything you step on.
Basically, pass without trace does nothing to prevent the vibrations/weight of a creature passing across a web from being transmitted to the ettercap. Shadows or silence would not prevent it. A +10 to stealth doesn't prevent it.
So, I'd stick by my ruling if I was running the game, pass without trace does nothing to affect the ettercap ability to sense when a creature is in contact with the same web.
My DM call would be that leaving behind no traces of its passage includes vibration contact in a web, heavy foliage toss, dust lifting, water waves, etc. It would be ''masking you and your companions from detection'' such as this.
You keep going back to this example of an open field. Snipers can hide in an open field. Things can be easily passed over if you are not looking for them in an open field. Most "fields" have long grass or are... well fields with vegetables etc. Unless you are talking about barren earth which depending on the terrain can provide places to hide from untrained eye (note untrained). The colour of clothing etc can make you blend into your environment to be overlooked. I've been on plenty of drives where my daughter will point out something that I have missed that was in plain sight and only noticed when pointed out.
I think a safe ruling would be roll for disadvantage or have the Ettercap roll for perception as opposed to automatically knowing.
I would ask it this way: does stealth prevent you from noticing if you are touched? Maybe only if you're really really careful and moving very slowly.
Websense is touch, not sight or sound. If the party member touches a web, the ettercap knows where it is.
If the party doesn't know there are ettercaps, I doubt they'd be doing anything to avoid webs. If they do, maybe they can avoid the webs, maybe using disadvantage or using additional dexterity and perception checks. Essentially these are tripwires, and pass without trace/stealth does nothing to save you from tripwires.
You keep going back to this example of an open field. Snipers can hide in an open field. Things can be easily passed over if you are not looking for them in an open field. Most "fields" have long grass or are... well fields with vegetables etc. Unless you are talking about barren earth which depending on the terrain can provide places to hide from untrained eye (note untrained). The colour of clothing etc can make you blend into your environment to be overlooked. I've been on plenty of drives where my daughter will point out something that I have missed that was in plain sight and only noticed when pointed out.
I think a safe ruling would be roll for disadvantage or have the Ettercap roll for perception as opposed to automatically knowing.
I keep mentioning an open field because in 5e D&D a creature can NOT hide if they can be seen clearly. If they are standing in an open field, they can be seen clearly, they can not hide and Pass Without Trace does nothing. Pass Without Trace gives a +10 circumstance bonus to stealth checks BUT only when stealth is possible. The spell does NOT change the circumstances required to make a stealth check in the first place. The spell contains a description indicating the effects it may use to make the creature harder to notice ... it makes them quieter and harder to see when obscured by existing cover by using shadows. That's it. Pass Without Trace is not invisibility. It doesn't provide ANY cover itself. It just makes whatever cover a creature can find to hide behind more effective.
A field with long grass, trees, bushes is NOT open. A creature using these objects to hide will likely be allowed to make a stealth check by the DM and Pass Without Trace will make them harder to notice.
As far as what you may or may not notice while driving .. I'm glad that you pay attention to the road rather than what might be hiding in fields :) .. it is not at all surprising that someone needs to point out things while you are driving because (in theory) your attention is specifically on the road/traffic etc even when the road is quiet (you never know when an animal or person might run out from the side of the road). If someone is pointing out that the car in front of you has suddenly applied its brakes then that is a different issue.
Finally, from the perspective of D&D again, characters are adventurers and ARE generally assumed to be trained observers. I would expect a D&D character to notice someone in a field unless they had cover and made an effort to hide. That is the nature of characters in this game. Comparisons to the real world really don't apply. In addition, things in D&D do what they say they do but are open to interpretation by the DM. In this case, Pass Without Trace doesn't specifically say anything about blocking the sense of touch, the weight of the creature upon the ground or in its environment. All it does is indicate that the creature doesn't leave signs of its passage. This could be anything from not leaving any marks in the first place to a magical wind that lightly blows along the ground removing any traces of passage of the creature affected by Pass Without Trace.
Since the spell only indicates that the affected creature doesn't leave behind traces of its passage, requires magic to be tracked and gets a +10 to stealth rolls - that is all it does. Whether a DM decides that not leaving behind any traces means that they levitate above the ground and don't leave any traces because they don't interact with the ground or whether the DM decides that they just don't leave any footprints behind is entirely up to the DM. The spell just says they don't leave traces behind, not how that is accomplished. Since the spell says nothing about blocking all iteractions between the character and the environment then I'd rule that web sense, or tremor sense, would be unaffected by Pass Without Trace.
A different DM can easily decide that "leave behind" refers to the present tense as well as the past tense and that the creature "not leaving behind" any traces can't be making any traces as they walk but that isn't the interpretation I'd pick. In my opinion, leaving behind specifically refers to what happens after the creature has moved not what is happening as it moves. The writer could have chosen to use the wording "leaves no traces" as opposed to "leaves behind no traces" .. if they intended there to be no traces of its passage as it would have made the tracks.
I would argue that the "A veil of shadows and silence radiates from you, masking you and your companions from detection." is obviously flavor text. The rules of the spell come behind that passage, as none of the portion you cited appears to have any mechanical significance. The spell does exactly what it says it does: gives a +10 bonus to stealth checks and eliminates tracks/traces of your progress. If you were going to follow the flavor text, one could argue that if you were sneaking through medium grass through a field in broad daylight that the shadows emanating from your party could be a giveaway of their position.
I would tend to consider the Ettercap's Web almost like a trap. Does Pass Without a Trace mean that you cannot set off a tripwire trap? Would it repair the wire as you passed over it to eliminate signs of your passage? That seems pretty strong for this spell. Same with the web. If you touch the web, the ettercap knows where you are. No perception check listed, similar to a tremorsense. It isn't "tracking" the party, it simply knows where they are.
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I have a party approaching an Ettercap lair in the forest. The ranger is casting Pass without trace.
Under Ettercap it states: Web Sense. While in contact with a web, the Ettercap knows the exact location of any other creature in contact with the same web.
However, since you're not leaving a trace would you alert the Ettercap to the party's approach and location, same for giant spiders etc? And to expand on that, would snares and other traps/ tripwires in a forest be circumvented.
...hm. I think this would fall into Specific Beats General.
To clarify: Pass Without Trace is more specific than the Ettercap's general ability of Web Sense.
So, because no trace or tracks of their passage is left, unless the Ettercap sees them or otherwise manages to overcome their Stealth check, their Web Sense will not work.
And since the breaking of a tripwire would be a "trace" of their passage, I think that the tripwires would be ineffective too, maybe. but that's idle musing on my part.
Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
I would go the other way.
Not leaving trace or track makes me think pass without trace stops creatures knowing where you WERE. To help prevent them knowing where you ARE you get a +10 to stealth.
The Ettercap need to be in contact with the Web so I would view this as something like tremor sense, no matter how stealthy you are the Ettercap knows your position.
I can see that, and I don't disagree. It really is coming down to DM fiat here.
That said, you raise a REALLY good argument and it's kinda swaying me a bit too. lol
Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
I'd agree with Jegpeg. Mechanically, all Pass without Trace does is add +10 to your stealth checks and prevents you from leaving tracks or trace of your passage.
"A veil of shadows and silence radiates from you, masking you and your companions from detection. For the duration, each creature you choose within 30 feet of you (including you) has a +10![]()
bonus to Dexterity (Stealth) checks and can't be tracked except by magical means. A creature that receives this bonus leaves behind no tracks or other traces of its passage."
Pass without trace does not prevent your feet from touching the webs or the ground. It doesn't help if someone just LOOKS at you since if you can be seen clearly you can't hide and a stealth check is irrelevant.
There is nothing in Pass without Trace that would interfere with Web Sense:
"Web Sense. While in contact with a web, the Ettercap knows the exact location of any other creature in contact with the same web."
So, the ettercap would be completely aware of the location of the ranger and others affected by Pass without Trace if they are in contact with the same web.
I was in agreement until you pointed something out, and I think there is a counter argument to your point after you stated the spell description.
A veil of shadows and silence radiates from you, masking you and your companions from detection.
Detection being the point here. Sound is just vibrations in air so it's not much of a stretch that the spider webs are "muted" in the same sense, especially if they also leave no trace in it's passing.
On a side note: I'd also argue your point about it not helping someone just looking at you since it states the "A veil of shadows and silence radiates from you". Unless someone says "I want to look at that shadow over there" I think it might help a bit. There are instances where people in an open area is missed because your eyes expect to see nothing so will browse over them.
I would say both applies. Give the +10, but let them roll with disadvantage. If everyone beats the spiders passiv perception, then they succeeded.
Attack: [roll]3d20dl2+6[/roll] Damage: [roll](if([roll:-1:critical], =0, 1d8, 2{1d8}.expand()))+4[/roll] Sneakattack: [roll](if([roll:-2:critical], =0, 2d6, 2{2d6}.expand()))[/roll]I'd rule that Pass without Trace trumps Web Sense because it can't be tracked except by magical means, which it isn't.
The target leaves behind no tracks or other traces of its passage for the ettercap to know the exact location of any other creature in contact with its web.
Ultimately it is a DM call but I tend to disagree.
The target "leaves behind" no tracks or traces of its passage. This does not mean its passage is not noticeable as the tracks are being made. Leaving something behind is not the same as making them. In addition, this refers to making tracks/traces of its passage and tracking .. not immediately sensing the presence of the creature.
For example, Pass without Trace provides no benefit at all if a creature is in an open field or can be seen clearly. The fluff text describes a veil of shadows and silence that masks the creatures from detection. However, nothing in the spell changes the basic requirements for a hide check. If a creature can be seen, it can't hide and pass without trace does nothing. In addition, even the name of the spell states what it does - you don't leave behind traces of your passage - it does not say that such passage is utterly silent, that your feet don't touch the ground, that there is no pressure exerted on anything you step on.
Basically, pass without trace does nothing to prevent the vibrations/weight of a creature passing across a web from being transmitted to the ettercap. Shadows or silence would not prevent it. A +10 to stealth doesn't prevent it.
So, I'd stick by my ruling if I was running the game, pass without trace does nothing to affect the ettercap ability to sense when a creature is in contact with the same web.
You keep going back to this example of an open field. Snipers can hide in an open field. Things can be easily passed over if you are not looking for them in an open field. Most "fields" have long grass or are... well fields with vegetables etc. Unless you are talking about barren earth which depending on the terrain can provide places to hide from untrained eye (note untrained). The colour of clothing etc can make you blend into your environment to be overlooked. I've been on plenty of drives where my daughter will point out something that I have missed that was in plain sight and only noticed when pointed out.
I think a safe ruling would be roll for disadvantage or have the Ettercap roll for perception as opposed to automatically knowing.
I would ask it this way: does stealth prevent you from noticing if you are touched? Maybe only if you're really really careful and moving very slowly.
Websense is touch, not sight or sound. If the party member touches a web, the ettercap knows where it is.
If the party doesn't know there are ettercaps, I doubt they'd be doing anything to avoid webs. If they do, maybe they can avoid the webs, maybe using disadvantage or using additional dexterity and perception checks. Essentially these are tripwires, and pass without trace/stealth does nothing to save you from tripwires.
I keep mentioning an open field because in 5e D&D a creature can NOT hide if they can be seen clearly. If they are standing in an open field, they can be seen clearly, they can not hide and Pass Without Trace does nothing. Pass Without Trace gives a +10 circumstance bonus to stealth checks BUT only when stealth is possible. The spell does NOT change the circumstances required to make a stealth check in the first place. The spell contains a description indicating the effects it may use to make the creature harder to notice ... it makes them quieter and harder to see when obscured by existing cover by using shadows. That's it. Pass Without Trace is not invisibility. It doesn't provide ANY cover itself. It just makes whatever cover a creature can find to hide behind more effective.
A field with long grass, trees, bushes is NOT open. A creature using these objects to hide will likely be allowed to make a stealth check by the DM and Pass Without Trace will make them harder to notice.
As far as what you may or may not notice while driving .. I'm glad that you pay attention to the road rather than what might be hiding in fields :) .. it is not at all surprising that someone needs to point out things while you are driving because (in theory) your attention is specifically on the road/traffic etc even when the road is quiet (you never know when an animal or person might run out from the side of the road). If someone is pointing out that the car in front of you has suddenly applied its brakes then that is a different issue.
Finally, from the perspective of D&D again, characters are adventurers and ARE generally assumed to be trained observers. I would expect a D&D character to notice someone in a field unless they had cover and made an effort to hide. That is the nature of characters in this game. Comparisons to the real world really don't apply. In addition, things in D&D do what they say they do but are open to interpretation by the DM. In this case, Pass Without Trace doesn't specifically say anything about blocking the sense of touch, the weight of the creature upon the ground or in its environment. All it does is indicate that the creature doesn't leave signs of its passage. This could be anything from not leaving any marks in the first place to a magical wind that lightly blows along the ground removing any traces of passage of the creature affected by Pass Without Trace.
Since the spell only indicates that the affected creature doesn't leave behind traces of its passage, requires magic to be tracked and gets a +10 to stealth rolls - that is all it does. Whether a DM decides that not leaving behind any traces means that they levitate above the ground and don't leave any traces because they don't interact with the ground or whether the DM decides that they just don't leave any footprints behind is entirely up to the DM. The spell just says they don't leave traces behind, not how that is accomplished. Since the spell says nothing about blocking all iteractions between the character and the environment then I'd rule that web sense, or tremor sense, would be unaffected by Pass Without Trace.
A different DM can easily decide that "leave behind" refers to the present tense as well as the past tense and that the creature "not leaving behind" any traces can't be making any traces as they walk but that isn't the interpretation I'd pick. In my opinion, leaving behind specifically refers to what happens after the creature has moved not what is happening as it moves. The writer could have chosen to use the wording "leaves no traces" as opposed to "leaves behind no traces" .. if they intended there to be no traces of its passage as it would have made the tracks.
I would argue that the "A veil of shadows and silence radiates from you, masking you and your companions from detection." is obviously flavor text. The rules of the spell come behind that passage, as none of the portion you cited appears to have any mechanical significance. The spell does exactly what it says it does: gives a +10 bonus to stealth checks and eliminates tracks/traces of your progress. If you were going to follow the flavor text, one could argue that if you were sneaking through medium grass through a field in broad daylight that the shadows emanating from your party could be a giveaway of their position.
I would tend to consider the Ettercap's Web almost like a trap. Does Pass Without a Trace mean that you cannot set off a tripwire trap? Would it repair the wire as you passed over it to eliminate signs of your passage? That seems pretty strong for this spell. Same with the web. If you touch the web, the ettercap knows where you are. No perception check listed, similar to a tremorsense. It isn't "tracking" the party, it simply knows where they are.