Hi! I've been playing 5e for a while but I recently joined a group with a DM who has very specific rules about the surprised condition, and I wanted to double-check with people how they feel about it.
Their rules are:
1. A PC is surprised if the enemies' stealth check beats their passive perception. This has led to some hinky scenarios, most memorably when we (the party) walked into a cave that we knew was filled with enemies, but the DM ruled that we were still "surprised" when we rolled initiative because the enemies rolled high stealth. (Personally, I find this a bit weird - it's like playing hide-and-seek with a small child in the living room. Yes, you don't have line of sight to them, but you can still probably guess that they're under the sofa, and you wouldn't exactly be surprised if you found them there. I obviously agree with giving the enemies advantage on their attack, and granting them sneak attack if they hit.) But would you say that a PC who is expecting an attack is still surprised for the first round of combat?
2. If one PC has high enough passive perception to see the stealthed enemies, the surprise round doesn't apply to them, but it still applies to everyone else in the party. (Again, a bit weird for me, because surely you have time to point and say "They're over there!" to your fellow party members?) This also becomes even weirder because the rogue in our party has the Alert feat, and therefore can't be surprised, and my character (monk/rogue multiclass with the Observant feat) has a 23 passive perception at level 4.
What would you say is the RAW ruling? And how would you apply it in these scenarios? Also, what do you think would be the most fun to play with? The surprised condition just confuses me in general - sometime I feel like the implication is that PCs don't have object permanence. "The goblin was next to a big rock, then disappeared - where could he be?!"
The RAW rules for surprise (and hiding for that matter) are pretty bad.
I have had the exact situation happen to me. We chased goblins I to a room and they got surprise on us.
According to RAW the only requirement for surprise is "trying to be stealthy" not anything about the enemy being unaware. This is something I'd discuss with the DM about amending.
As for warning allies about enemies, the rules actually make a little more sense if you consider how fast and simultaneous combat actually is narratively compared to the slow turn based nature of the game mechanics. Saying "there over there" at the same time as a bolt hits someone does not negate the surprise to everyone who didn't see the enemy at the same time you did.
The RAW on surprise is pretty much the same as what the DM describes, with one caveat: "The DM determines who might be surprised" includes the possibility of deciding that surprise is not reasonable, and your DM seems to be being pretty generous in his definition of reasonable (I would not have used surprise in your first example, unless the cave is quite large and complicated and you'll have to take a while searching it).
Case 1 - was it a single large cave, or a network of connected caves. Just because you are wary of enemies, if you can't see them you might not react fast enough if they suddenly pop up from behind a rock when you are looking elsewhere and they fire an arrow in your back (that is what the surprise rules is trying to simulate, since D&D only has optional rules for facing). If it was a single cave, then maybe the DM could let you all roll your Perception instead of relying only on passive perception, in order for you to notice the hidden enemies.
Case 2 - the party would need to be far enough away for the high perception folks to warn the rest of the party with plenty of time to utter the words (i.e .before they are close enough for initiative to be rolled).
Player characters frequently enter caves and dungeons they know are filled with enemies sometimes hiding from them. Surprise only means you didn't detect a hidden threat in time to react, knowing it was there somewhere isn't enought to cancel surprise in itself, you need to perceive it somehow, hence the Stealth vs Perception contest.
So you're right about the "Object Permanence" part. If a goblin is next to a rock, and then goes behind the rock, they are in cover, but they are not "hidden". They can try to use the "hide" action, but at the point where you saw the goblin, even if it disappears your character will not be "surprised" by it.
"Surprise" is a condition that individual creatures can have. It is not a "round" ('Surprise Round' I think comes from older editions or other TTRPG rules, but is not RAW in 5e). So yes, the Alert Rogue can be unsurprised, but the rest of the party could be. Unless they are scouting an area and call back to the party some distance away, as long as the party is pretty much together in the same battle space, one can be unsurprised and the others surprised, even with calling out "Enemies everywhere!"
The examples in the PHB for Surprise condition tend to be about a group that is unaware that there is a specific danger in a specific area. "A band of adventurers sneaks up on a bandit camp, springing from the trees to attack them. A gelatinous cube glides down a dungeon passage, unnoticed by the adventurers until the cube engulfs one of them. In these situations, one side of the battle gains surprise over the other."
In the case of the bandit camp, sure they might be on the lookout for possible danger, but that does not mean they are specifically aware that your band of adventurers are close by and looking to attack. In the case of the gelatinous cube, while the adventurers might be on the lookout because they are in a dangerous dungeon, if they are not aware of the presence of a hungry cube in the area, they can be surprised.
However, walking in to an area that you SAW enemies go into? I would rule that you the adventurers would not be surprised, although you can be attacked from "unseen attackers". You are aware there are enemies in that cave and what kind of enemies to be on the lookout for, so you are fully on guard. However, RAW the DM gets to decide who might be surprised, so ultimately it is up to them.
Personally what is fun for me is basically how I understand the rules to apply. If an character is unaware that an attack might occur, they can be Surprised. They don't even have to be hidden. If you are talking to a trusted companion NPC, one you've shared adventures with, stories, secrets, etc, and you decide to suddenly and without warning stab them with your dagger? Yeah, they will be Surprised. In a room with the king and you have expertly disguised yourself as one of his trusted companions and decide to attack? The king would be Surprised. In your situation with the cave, unless it's a huge cave system and there's ample opportunity for your party to get in to a false sense of security? Sure, they can be Surprised. But if they just walk in to a singular large open cave fully expecting an ambush? No.
A character is Surprised if they fail to perceive all enemies. So every enemy has to roll higher than their Passive Perception. It doesn't matter if you are expecting enemies or not, if they beat your Passive Perception, you do not sense their presence and are thus Surprised. If even a single enemy fails to beat your Perception, however, you are not Surprised for any of them.
Surprise can only happen at the beginning of combat. Creatures can Hide in the middle of combat, but they cannot Surprise anyone after that first round of Initiative. Being Hidden has its own benefits separate from Surprise.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
I find out that your DM didn't rule it correctly or logicly you could say, you are right and I rule it as you first thought. If you have that info needed, (that the place would be and not could be swarmed by a gang of some sort then he should not give you the surpised condition, but let you play normal. The advantage from unseen attackers would still uplly of course. Yes the Surpised condition in %e is a bit confusing... Could say unrealistic. It has to do with rounds and turns.
As for warning allies about enemies, the rules actually make a little more sense if you consider how fast and simultaneous combat actually is narratively compared to the slow turn based nature of the game mechanics. Saying "there over there" at the same time as a bolt hits someone does not negate the surprise to everyone who didn't see the enemy at the same time you did.
Our friend DxJxCexplained it very good, I would say exactly the same. Warning someone may be an interaction, a reaction if done outside your turn, or an action if you take some time to explain that one goblin is behind the barrigate and another goblin riding a worg is hiding on an elevated spot behind the big rock. I also let my players or my monsters do these things among many more but in a more realistic way.
And not all DMs make calls you, or I, would agree with. You can either just deal with it, talk with them about it, or find a DM more suited to your play preferences.
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
As far as I can tell, everything you describe in terms of the surprise your DM ruled is RAW.
Just because you know there is a threat somewhere doesn't mean you will notice it in time to immediately react to the threat (ie. not be surprised).
For example, the party enters a dungeon. They KNOW there are monsters there. Should they be immune to being surprised just because they know there is something there? They don't know where the threat might be, they don't know which room it is in, they may not know what sort of creature it is or how many there might be, but they KNOW there MUST be something. That is not enough to prevent surprise.
Surprise in 5e does NOT mean "GEE, I had NO idea there was a bad guy anywhere around" ... Surprise in 5e is "There was a specific threat nearby that I did not notice in the seconds before they were going to release their attack so I can't react right away (loses reactions until after first turn and can not take actions on their first turn)".
Knowing there is a general risk of danger is not enough to prevent a party from being "surprised" when something happens. On the other hand, noticing ANY specific danger (you don't have to notice everything) IS enough to prevent a character being surprised.
For example, there could be six hidden enemies around the next cave you are going to enter. If you notice ANY one of them then you aren't surprised. The ones that are hidden will still have advantage on their first attack due to the unseen attackers rules but your character can still take reactions and can act on their first turn.
So, it sounds to me that the OP and DM in this case have a different view of what "surprise" in 5e means. In this case, the DM is correct.
Hi! I've been playing 5e for a while but I recently joined a group with a DM who has very specific rules about the surprised condition, and I wanted to double-check with people how they feel about it.
Their rules are:
1. A PC is surprised if the enemies' stealth check beats their passive perception. This has led to some hinky scenarios, most memorably when we (the party) walked into a cave that we knew was filled with enemies, but the DM ruled that we were still "surprised" when we rolled initiative because the enemies rolled high stealth. (Personally, I find this a bit weird - it's like playing hide-and-seek with a small child in the living room. Yes, you don't have line of sight to them, but you can still probably guess that they're under the sofa, and you wouldn't exactly be surprised if you found them there. I obviously agree with giving the enemies advantage on their attack, and granting them sneak attack if they hit.) But would you say that a PC who is expecting an attack is still surprised for the first round of combat?
2. If one PC has high enough passive perception to see the stealthed enemies, the surprise round doesn't apply to them, but it still applies to everyone else in the party. (Again, a bit weird for me, because surely you have time to point and say "They're over there!" to your fellow party members?) This also becomes even weirder because the rogue in our party has the Alert feat, and therefore can't be surprised, and my character (monk/rogue multiclass with the Observant feat) has a 23 passive perception at level 4.
What would you say is the RAW ruling? And how would you apply it in these scenarios? Also, what do you think would be the most fun to play with? The surprised condition just confuses me in general - sometime I feel like the implication is that PCs don't have object permanence. "The goblin was next to a big rock, then disappeared - where could he be?!"
Anyway, cheers and hope to hear from ya <3
The RAW rules for surprise (and hiding for that matter) are pretty bad.
I have had the exact situation happen to me. We chased goblins I to a room and they got surprise on us.
According to RAW the only requirement for surprise is "trying to be stealthy" not anything about the enemy being unaware. This is something I'd discuss with the DM about amending.
As for warning allies about enemies, the rules actually make a little more sense if you consider how fast and simultaneous combat actually is narratively compared to the slow turn based nature of the game mechanics. Saying "there over there" at the same time as a bolt hits someone does not negate the surprise to everyone who didn't see the enemy at the same time you did.
The RAW on surprise is pretty much the same as what the DM describes, with one caveat: "The DM determines who might be surprised" includes the possibility of deciding that surprise is not reasonable, and your DM seems to be being pretty generous in his definition of reasonable (I would not have used surprise in your first example, unless the cave is quite large and complicated and you'll have to take a while searching it).
Case 1 - was it a single large cave, or a network of connected caves. Just because you are wary of enemies, if you can't see them you might not react fast enough if they suddenly pop up from behind a rock when you are looking elsewhere and they fire an arrow in your back (that is what the surprise rules is trying to simulate, since D&D only has optional rules for facing). If it was a single cave, then maybe the DM could let you all roll your Perception instead of relying only on passive perception, in order for you to notice the hidden enemies.
Case 2 - the party would need to be far enough away for the high perception folks to warn the rest of the party with plenty of time to utter the words (i.e .before they are close enough for initiative to be rolled).
Player characters frequently enter caves and dungeons they know are filled with enemies sometimes hiding from them. Surprise only means you didn't detect a hidden threat in time to react, knowing it was there somewhere isn't enought to cancel surprise in itself, you need to perceive it somehow, hence the Stealth vs Perception contest.
So you're right about the "Object Permanence" part. If a goblin is next to a rock, and then goes behind the rock, they are in cover, but they are not "hidden". They can try to use the "hide" action, but at the point where you saw the goblin, even if it disappears your character will not be "surprised" by it.
"Surprise" is a condition that individual creatures can have. It is not a "round" ('Surprise Round' I think comes from older editions or other TTRPG rules, but is not RAW in 5e). So yes, the Alert Rogue can be unsurprised, but the rest of the party could be. Unless they are scouting an area and call back to the party some distance away, as long as the party is pretty much together in the same battle space, one can be unsurprised and the others surprised, even with calling out "Enemies everywhere!"
The examples in the PHB for Surprise condition tend to be about a group that is unaware that there is a specific danger in a specific area. "A band of adventurers sneaks up on a bandit camp, springing from the trees to attack them. A gelatinous cube glides down a dungeon passage, unnoticed by the adventurers until the cube engulfs one of them. In these situations, one side of the battle gains surprise over the other."
In the case of the bandit camp, sure they might be on the lookout for possible danger, but that does not mean they are specifically aware that your band of adventurers are close by and looking to attack. In the case of the gelatinous cube, while the adventurers might be on the lookout because they are in a dangerous dungeon, if they are not aware of the presence of a hungry cube in the area, they can be surprised.
However, walking in to an area that you SAW enemies go into? I would rule that you the adventurers would not be surprised, although you can be attacked from "unseen attackers". You are aware there are enemies in that cave and what kind of enemies to be on the lookout for, so you are fully on guard. However, RAW the DM gets to decide who might be surprised, so ultimately it is up to them.
Personally what is fun for me is basically how I understand the rules to apply. If an character is unaware that an attack might occur, they can be Surprised. They don't even have to be hidden. If you are talking to a trusted companion NPC, one you've shared adventures with, stories, secrets, etc, and you decide to suddenly and without warning stab them with your dagger? Yeah, they will be Surprised. In a room with the king and you have expertly disguised yourself as one of his trusted companions and decide to attack? The king would be Surprised. In your situation with the cave, unless it's a huge cave system and there's ample opportunity for your party to get in to a false sense of security? Sure, they can be Surprised. But if they just walk in to a singular large open cave fully expecting an ambush? No.
A character is Surprised if they fail to perceive all enemies. So every enemy has to roll higher than their Passive Perception. It doesn't matter if you are expecting enemies or not, if they beat your Passive Perception, you do not sense their presence and are thus Surprised. If even a single enemy fails to beat your Perception, however, you are not Surprised for any of them.
Surprise can only happen at the beginning of combat. Creatures can Hide in the middle of combat, but they cannot Surprise anyone after that first round of Initiative. Being Hidden has its own benefits separate from Surprise.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
I find out that your DM didn't rule it correctly or logicly you could say, you are right and I rule it as you first thought. If you have that info needed, (that the place would be and not could be swarmed by a gang of some sort then he should not give you the surpised condition, but let you play normal. The advantage from unseen attackers would still uplly of course. Yes the Surpised condition in %e is a bit confusing... Could say unrealistic. It has to do with rounds and turns.
As for warning allies about enemies, the rules actually make a little more sense if you consider how fast and simultaneous combat actually is narratively compared to the slow turn based nature of the game mechanics. Saying "there over there" at the same time as a bolt hits someone does not negate the surprise to everyone who didn't see the enemy at the same time you did.
Our friend DxJxCexplained it very good, I would say exactly the same. Warning someone may be an interaction, a reaction if done outside your turn, or an action if you take some time to explain that one goblin is behind the barrigate and another goblin riding a worg is hiding on an elevated spot behind the big rock. I also let my players or my monsters do these things among many more but in a more realistic way.
"The DM determines who might be surprised."
And not all DMs make calls you, or I, would agree with. You can either just deal with it, talk with them about it, or find a DM more suited to your play preferences.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
As far as I can tell, everything you describe in terms of the surprise your DM ruled is RAW.
Just because you know there is a threat somewhere doesn't mean you will notice it in time to immediately react to the threat (ie. not be surprised).
For example, the party enters a dungeon. They KNOW there are monsters there. Should they be immune to being surprised just because they know there is something there? They don't know where the threat might be, they don't know which room it is in, they may not know what sort of creature it is or how many there might be, but they KNOW there MUST be something. That is not enough to prevent surprise.
Surprise in 5e does NOT mean "GEE, I had NO idea there was a bad guy anywhere around" ... Surprise in 5e is "There was a specific threat nearby that I did not notice in the seconds before they were going to release their attack so I can't react right away (loses reactions until after first turn and can not take actions on their first turn)".
Knowing there is a general risk of danger is not enough to prevent a party from being "surprised" when something happens. On the other hand, noticing ANY specific danger (you don't have to notice everything) IS enough to prevent a character being surprised.
For example, there could be six hidden enemies around the next cave you are going to enter. If you notice ANY one of them then you aren't surprised. The ones that are hidden will still have advantage on their first attack due to the unseen attackers rules but your character can still take reactions and can act on their first turn.
So, it sounds to me that the OP and DM in this case have a different view of what "surprise" in 5e means. In this case, the DM is correct.