Okay, first, here is the Spell Description for 5e:
"You suggest a course of activity (limited to a sentence or two) and magically influence a creature you can see within range that can hear and understand you. Creatures that can’t be charmed are immune to this effect.
The suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the course of action sound reasonable. Asking the creature to stab itself, throw itself onto a spear, immolate itself, or do some other obviously harmful act ends the spell. The target must make a Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, it pursues the course of action you described to the best of its ability. The suggested course of action can continue for the entire duration. If the suggested activity can be completed in a shorter time, the spell ends when the subject finishes what it was asked to do. You can also specify conditions that will trigger a special activity during the duration.
For example, you might suggest that a knight give her warhorse to the first beggar she meets. If the condition isn’t met before the spell expires, the activity isn’t performed. If you or any of your companions damage the target, the spell ends."
Now, assuming that the caster was within range and had a way to subtly communicate with their companions to hold their actions, do you believe that this spell could work in combat?
More specifically, could it be used, if the caster speaks convincingly, to stop combat by giving an alternative to fighting?
Thanks in advance for input.
Edit: Also. What if it's a single enemy and they don't see you? Like, you make the symbols subtly or behind your back? And I know you can't command a creature to harm themselves, and most don't think you could flat out tell them to murder their friends, but if done convincingly, could they turn on allies?
Such as: "I overheard that your friends have planned to turn on you to gain control. They they think you're too week. Join us and we can help you prove them wrong."
Especially, say, if there's something going on that already has them paranoid? Because as long as it's not the caster and the caster allies hurting them, the spell says nothing about other damage except if asked to physically harm oneself through running a sword through them or something.
The Suggestion spell has been used in combat probably an incalculable amount of times by various players the world over. It can totally work the way you suggest, though usually it's up to the DM to sort out how the wording of the suggestion affects the outcome.
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"The mongoose blew out its candle and was asleep in bed before the room went dark." —Llanowar fable
Biggest key is the course of action sounding reasonable. So the spell could be used in combat, but questionable whether it could cause someone to turn on their friends. Also note that the spell ends once the action is complete. So if you say "let us pass" the second you are pass the spell ends and the person can proceed to do whatever they want.
What's reasonable is going to be up to the DM and so the spells effectiveness is really dependant on the Dm who can probably rule many things as "unreasonable".
Biggest key is the course of action sounding reasonable. So the spell could be used in combat, but questionable whether it could cause someone to turn on their friends. Also note that the spell ends once the action is complete. So if you say "let us pass" the second you are pass the spell ends and the person can proceed to do whatever they want.
What's reasonable is going to be up to the DM and so the spells effectiveness is really dependant on the Dm who can probably rule many things as "unreasonable".
I do think the fact the example is a knight giving away their horse (which likely is very important to them, and may not even be theirs) gives some guidance that "reasonable" doesn't mean something the target would have done anyways.
Biggest key is the course of action sounding reasonable. So the spell could be used in combat, but questionable whether it could cause someone to turn on their friends. Also note that the spell ends once the action is complete. So if you say "let us pass" the second you are pass the spell ends and the person can proceed to do whatever they want.
What's reasonable is going to be up to the DM and so the spells effectiveness is really dependant on the Dm who can probably rule many things as "unreasonable".
I do think the fact the example is a knight giving away their horse (which likely is very important to them, and may not even be theirs) gives some guidance that "reasonable" doesn't mean something the target would have done anyways.
But the knight can attack you to get the horse back as soon as he hands you the horse or alert the town that you are a thief and trickster. So yeah it might not be something the target would have done anyway. I'll have to double check, but it doesn't seem the spell specifies whether or not the person maintains the suggestion after the spell ends. Which would what happens after the spell ends. I might lean toward letting the suggestion stay or linger.
As for whether or not you would attack your friends, I think this would fall under the stabbing yourself clause. You would be destroying your life and killing people you love and admire. There are even some people who would rather stab themselves than stab their friends. If you happen to target a bandit and they don't particularly like each other, then maybe it would work.
Considering the example of the knight in the spell description, the spell ends as soon as the knight fulfils the task. The point to consider is that the knight does not know he has been influenced by a spell. Contrarily at what happens for the spell Charm person, in Suggestion the target does not know it has been the target of a spell.
Considering the example of the knight in the spell description, the spell ends as soon as the knight fulfils the task. The point to consider is that the knight does not know he has been influenced by a spell. Contrarily at what happens for the spell Charm person, in Suggestion the target does not know it has been the target of a spell.
While true, if the knight would never give up his horse that he had since childhood (basically any action he would never take while not influenced by a spell), would this mean 1) Suggestion wouldn't work to begin with, (2) Once no longer under the suggestion spell he could attempt to retrieve the item lost or correct the action taken, (3) The suggestion itself persists after the spell ends.
add on to the question. does anyone have a phrasing that could seem reasonable for them to harm themself?
Not directly - the spell text specifies you cannot request an "obviously harmful act" - but there are many ways you could make a suggestion that would lead to someone harming themselves without their knowledge going in. Ideas could include having them walk into a trap they don't know about, or, perhaps, having their "suggestion" goal lie in a reasonable destination that would require them to travel through dangerous lands. In battle, maybe "I need your shield, please throw it here" or something that isn't them harming themselves could be reasonable.
add on to the question. does anyone have a phrasing that could seem reasonable for them to harm themself?
If you are attacked by a rot grubs, if you do not deal fire damage to the injury within a few seconds, the worm will burrow to your heart and kill you. I would say that that could be a reasonable deception even without magic. However, if it passes the "obviously harmful act" qualifier of suggestion is up to DM. (As it would be harmful, but also self-preserving).
You might could word the suggestion: "You have been stricken with rot grubs, you must treat yourself immediately" which gives them the option of cure disease or self immolation... maybe that would get by it since it would then be their choice of how to treat it.
My DM just threw a deadly boss encounter at us at the end of a prison break. We were supposed to be beaten within an inch of our lives, and then the boss would try to use mass suggestion to suggest that we return to our cells. However, the boss and his minions ended up at the bottom of the initiative order, and we wiped out everyone except the boss and one or two minions. The boss then tried to cast the spell anyway, also suggesting that returning to our cells would give us the opportunity to take a short rest. We furiously disagreed because returning to our cells made no sense because we were clearly winning.
Saves are automatic, like a reflex. The player decides mechanical level decisions like this. So unless the spell works on the player, then, no you cannot suggestion someone to not roll a save for their character.
Imagine trying to use suggestion to convince someone to fail a save against poison, or a disease. It doesn't make sense.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Asking the creature to [...] do some [...] obviously harmful act ends the spell.
Fight has a lot of meanings so this isn't necessarily an invalid suggestion, but it would have to be clear in context you mean some non-harmful kind of fighting.
Playing a bard for the 1st time and had similar questions like...could I say Dear Sir(to a noble), to save your soul you will spend today giving away all your wealth, money, homes to the poor and downtroddeen?
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Okay, first, here is the Spell Description for 5e:
"You suggest a course of activity (limited to a sentence or two) and magically influence a creature you can see within range that can hear and understand you. Creatures that can’t be charmed are immune to this effect.
The suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the course of action sound reasonable. Asking the creature to stab itself, throw itself onto a spear, immolate itself, or do some other obviously harmful act ends the spell. The target must make a Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, it pursues the course of action you described to the best of its ability. The suggested course of action can continue for the entire duration. If the suggested activity can be completed in a shorter time, the spell ends when the subject finishes what it was asked to do. You can also specify conditions that will trigger a special activity during the duration.
For example, you might suggest that a knight give her warhorse to the first beggar she meets. If the condition isn’t met before the spell expires, the activity isn’t performed. If you or any of your companions damage the target, the spell ends."
Now, assuming that the caster was within range and had a way to subtly communicate with their companions to hold their actions, do you believe that this spell could work in combat?
More specifically, could it be used, if the caster speaks convincingly, to stop combat by giving an alternative to fighting?
Thanks in advance for input.
Edit: Also. What if it's a single enemy and they don't see you? Like, you make the symbols subtly or behind your back? And I know you can't command a creature to harm themselves, and most don't think you could flat out tell them to murder their friends, but if done convincingly, could they turn on allies?
Such as: "I overheard that your friends have planned to turn on you to gain control. They they think you're too week. Join us and we can help you prove them wrong."
Especially, say, if there's something going on that already has them paranoid? Because as long as it's not the caster and the caster allies hurting them, the spell says nothing about other damage except if asked to physically harm oneself through running a sword through them or something.
I believe so yes. It works in combat and the target follows the activity you suggested.
The wording is the key, though.
The Suggestion spell has been used in combat probably an incalculable amount of times by various players the world over. It can totally work the way you suggest, though usually it's up to the DM to sort out how the wording of the suggestion affects the outcome.
Biggest key is the course of action sounding reasonable. So the spell could be used in combat, but questionable whether it could cause someone to turn on their friends. Also note that the spell ends once the action is complete. So if you say "let us pass" the second you are pass the spell ends and the person can proceed to do whatever they want.
What's reasonable is going to be up to the DM and so the spells effectiveness is really dependant on the Dm who can probably rule many things as "unreasonable".
"You should return home, your family and friends need you."
A reasonable suggestion, that would end every fight that isn't in the target's home.
Considering the example of the knight in the spell description, the spell ends as soon as the knight fulfils the task. The point to consider is that the knight does not know he has been influenced by a spell. Contrarily at what happens for the spell Charm person, in Suggestion the target does not know it has been the target of a spell.
I agree between your suggestions 2 and 3. That is up to the DM to determine where the NPC behaviour lies.
add on to the question. does anyone have a phrasing that could seem reasonable for them to harm themself?
Not directly - the spell text specifies you cannot request an "obviously harmful act" - but there are many ways you could make a suggestion that would lead to someone harming themselves without their knowledge going in. Ideas could include having them walk into a trap they don't know about, or, perhaps, having their "suggestion" goal lie in a reasonable destination that would require them to travel through dangerous lands. In battle, maybe "I need your shield, please throw it here" or something that isn't them harming themselves could be reasonable.
If you are attacked by a rot grubs, if you do not deal fire damage to the injury within a few seconds, the worm will burrow to your heart and kill you. I would say that that could be a reasonable deception even without magic. However, if it passes the "obviously harmful act" qualifier of suggestion is up to DM. (As it would be harmful, but also self-preserving).
You might could word the suggestion: "You have been stricken with rot grubs, you must treat yourself immediately" which gives them the option of cure disease or self immolation... maybe that would get by it since it would then be their choice of how to treat it.
My DM just threw a deadly boss encounter at us at the end of a prison break. We were supposed to be beaten within an inch of our lives, and then the boss would try to use mass suggestion to suggest that we return to our cells. However, the boss and his minions ended up at the bottom of the initiative order, and we wiped out everyone except the boss and one or two minions. The boss then tried to cast the spell anyway, also suggesting that returning to our cells would give us the opportunity to take a short rest. We furiously disagreed because returning to our cells made no sense because we were clearly winning.
Can you use suggestion to make the target auto-fail the next save it has to make, if that save is non damaging?
Saves are automatic, like a reflex. The player decides mechanical level decisions like this. So unless the spell works on the player, then, no you cannot suggestion someone to not roll a save for their character.
Imagine trying to use suggestion to convince someone to fail a save against poison, or a disease. It doesn't make sense.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Some canine, I think a hell hound, was told "Your master has a great dog toy. Help us fight to get it for you." The creature failed its save. :D
From suggestion:
Fight has a lot of meanings so this isn't necessarily an invalid suggestion, but it would have to be clear in context you mean some non-harmful kind of fighting.
In this instance Harmful is obviously meant as harmful to oneself.
Playing a bard for the 1st time and had similar questions like...could I say Dear Sir(to a noble), to save your soul you will spend today giving away all your wealth, money, homes to the poor and downtroddeen?