I'm going to say this up front, this isn't a duplicate post. For the sake of this conversation I don't really want to bring the Invisible condition into it. This is more of oddities with the requirement to reach a DC 15.
I have at least two examples where it doesn't make sense. Example 1. The party is planning to hide and surprise a group of people coming down the road in like 15 min from now. Player goes behind a tree to hide and rolls a 14. The player knows they failed. It would obviously be meta gaming for the player to act on that knowledge. But what about the other PCs. They actually see that the player isn't hidden because they failed the hide roll. Can they inform the player that they have failed?
In 2014 I think its straight forward, you go to hide and you are hidden. Its up to each individual to notice any tells that you haven't managed to hide well enough (or at the crucial moment you make a sound) In 2024, if you make a sound, the condition ends, and therefore isn't related to that initial roll.
Example 2. Party casts silence in a crate and you go into the crate. You attempt to hide, but once again fail the initial roll. How do you fail a roll if you are hidden inside a crate and can't make a sound? In 2014 I'd just rule it that you were hidden, and because all means of perceiving you couldn't reasonably find you, you were good. In 2024 it seems that even though no one has any way to realize you are in the crate, you still can fail at hiding, which doesn't make sense.
I'm not sure if this guidance actually exists anywhere, but for example #1 I believe that it's far better to run that situation like this:
DM: What do you want to do.
Player: I want to hide behind this tree to try to surprise the people that will be coming down the road in a few minutes.
DM: Ok, you settle in behind the tree and wait. Fifteen minutes later, you notice a group of people coming down the road and they are approaching your position. You recognize them as the ones that you are trying to ambush.
Player: Ok, I spring the ambush and attack.
DM: Ok. Roll a stealth check.
In other words, in many out of combat stealth situations, don't actually ask for the stealth roll right away. Narrate the character attempting to be stealthy. Then, if the situation arises where they might actually be noticed by someone, THEN call for a stealth roll.
Remember, the rule of thumb for asking for ability checks in general is that you only ask for a check when there is a chance of failure. If there is never any enemy nearby then any sort of sneaking is just an auto-success. So, once there is actually a chance for failure, THEN you ask for the check.
Example 2: Again, if there really is no chance of failure and no chance of ever being found via a perception check in the future, then I think that it's reasonable to declare an auto-success. However, is there really no chance that they didn't quite secure the lid of the crate exactly the way that they found it? Or scuffed up the nearby area? Or cast some sort of shadow that shouldn't be there? Or maybe someone might lift the crate and notice that it's too heavy?
Remember, a perception check isn't just being able to see a hidden creature. In fact, that's almost never what happens when "found" by a perception check. There are all sorts of other things that a creature might notice that could give away your position.
So, in this situation, if it's not actually an auto-success because of some of the reasons given above, but you DID eliminate the possibility of being heard, perhaps a DM could grant you advantage on your stealth check.
I'm not sure if this guidance actually exists anywhere, but for example #1 I believe that it's far better to run that situation like this:
DM: What do you want to do.
Player: I want to hide behind this tree to try to surprise the people that will be coming down the road in a few minutes.
DM: Ok, you settle in behind the tree and wait. Fifteen minutes later, you notice a group of people coming down the road and they are approaching your position. You recognize them as the ones that you are trying to ambush.
Player: Ok, I spring the ambush and attack.
DM: Ok. Roll a stealth check.
In other words, in many out of combat stealth situations, don't actually ask for the stealth roll right away. Narrate the character attempting to be stealthy. Then, if the situation arises where they might actually be noticed by someone, THEN call for a stealth roll.
Remember, the rule of thumb for asking for ability checks in general is that you only ask for a check when there is a chance of failure. If there is never any enemy nearby then any sort of sneaking is just an auto-success. So, once there is actually a chance for failure, THEN you ask for the check.
Example 2: Again, if there really is no chance of failure and no chance of ever being found via a perception check in the future, then I think that it's reasonable to declare an auto-success. However, is there really no chance that they didn't quite secure the lid of the crate exactly the way that they found it? Or scuffed up the nearby area? Or cast some sort of shadow that shouldn't be there? Or maybe someone might lift the crate and notice that it's too heavy?
Remember, a perception check isn't just being able to see a hidden creature. In fact, that's almost never what happens when "found" by a perception check. There are all sorts of other things that a creature might notice that could give away your position.
So, in this situation, if it's not actually an auto-success because of some of the reasons given above, but you DID eliminate the possibility of being heard, perhaps a DM could grant you advantage on your stealth check.
In regards to 1, my understanding is that the check to see if you are hiding occurs the moment you take the hide action, not at some future point when someone shows up. (Technically someone in the party could serve as attempting to see if they could spot anyone before hand... at least that is what I would want to do as a player since I know the check can just straight up fail).
And for 2. My assumptions are the PCs maintain the crate at all times, and combat is going to start prior to anyone being able to investigate it. Any issues with the lid doesn't necessarily reveal a person in it, especially if the bad guys for example only know of the PCs standing out of the crate. Basically I Feel like the PC in the crate should automatically have the Invisible condition, as it isn't reasonable someone would know they were in the crate. Obviously without the silence spell you can easily assume it was noise or something along those lines.
With example 1, yes, it's common for the DM to just ask for the stealth check right away since that's how most checks work -- you attempt something and you roll a check to see if you succeed or fail. But this is definitely not the best way to run it when it comes to stealth since the success or failure isn't determined at the moment that the creature actually hides -- it occurs at the moment that someone tries to find them. The character might try to hide and really should have no idea if they are doing a good job hiding. In 2014, the process was described as a "contest" instead of just a "check".
Just think about playing hide-and-seek in real life. You might hide under a bush and wait for a while before the seekers come to the area. While you are waiting around you really don't know if you picked a good hiding spot -- so what would that stealth roll actually represent, except for meta-knowledge that the character shouldn't have. When that seeker comes around and finds you right away under the bush, did you actually already know that you weren't well hidden? Probably not.
To me, just because there is now the minimum requirement of the DC 15 to successfully hide doesn't mean that the character should know if they hit that number or not. Again, in 2014 the process was described like this:
"The DM decides when circumstances are appropriate for hiding. When you try to hide, make a Dexterity (Stealth) check. Until you are discovered or you stop hiding, that check's total is contested by the Wisdom (Perception) check . . ."
So again, if there is never a creature that tries to find you and therefore there is never a contest, then this is just an auto-success -- what was the point of making the check ahead of time?
On the other hand, the meta-game consequences are really pretty terrible. "I plan to enter that room and sneak past that dragon." "Ok, roll stealth." "I rolled a 2. Hmm, never mind, I don't go into that room, I go the other way instead." That's just super bad in my opinion. That's just a free chance to succeed at something that should be very dangerous with no chance of failure. It's better to wait on the stealth roll until there are consequences.
As for example 2, if the whole idea with this setup is to just attempt to gain surprise on an upcoming battle, then narratively we can just be talking about whether or not the enemies managed to "notice a threat" quickly enough at the moment that you sprang your surprise attack out of the crate and then just roll your stealth check as normal. So, you aren't really measuring whether or not you are well hidden while you are waiting around in the crate -- you are measuring whether or not you were able to quickly and efficiently (and quietly?) pop-out from the crate, locate your targets and execute your attacks before they were able to react.
If instead the whole idea was to avoid being detected by a patrolling guard that was walking by and not initiate combat, then I would probably give advantage on that stealth check. Maybe there's occasionally a case where we just declare auto-success after a particularly creative solution, but I think that that should be somewhat rare so that the game does not become trivialized by a rinse-and-repeat solution.
I'm going to say this up front, this isn't a duplicate post. For the sake of this conversation I don't really want to bring the Invisible condition into it. This is more of oddities with the requirement to reach a DC 15.
I have at least two examples where it doesn't make sense. Example 1. The party is planning to hide and surprise a group of people coming down the road in like 15 min from now. Player goes behind a tree to hide and rolls a 14. The player knows they failed. It would obviously be meta gaming for the player to act on that knowledge. But what about the other PCs. They actually see that the player isn't hidden because they failed the hide roll. Can they inform the player that they have failed?
In 2014 I think its straight forward, you go to hide and you are hidden. Its up to each individual to notice any tells that you haven't managed to hide well enough (or at the crucial moment you make a sound) In 2024, if you make a sound, the condition ends, and therefore isn't related to that initial roll.
Example 2. Party casts silence in a crate and you go into the crate. You attempt to hide, but once again fail the initial roll. How do you fail a roll if you are hidden inside a crate and can't make a sound? In 2014 I'd just rule it that you were hidden, and because all means of perceiving you couldn't reasonably find you, you were good. In 2024 it seems that even though no one has any way to realize you are in the crate, you still can fail at hiding, which doesn't make sense.
I'm not sure if this guidance actually exists anywhere, but for example #1 I believe that it's far better to run that situation like this:
DM: What do you want to do.
Player: I want to hide behind this tree to try to surprise the people that will be coming down the road in a few minutes.
DM: Ok, you settle in behind the tree and wait. Fifteen minutes later, you notice a group of people coming down the road and they are approaching your position. You recognize them as the ones that you are trying to ambush.
Player: Ok, I spring the ambush and attack.
DM: Ok. Roll a stealth check.
In other words, in many out of combat stealth situations, don't actually ask for the stealth roll right away. Narrate the character attempting to be stealthy. Then, if the situation arises where they might actually be noticed by someone, THEN call for a stealth roll.
Remember, the rule of thumb for asking for ability checks in general is that you only ask for a check when there is a chance of failure. If there is never any enemy nearby then any sort of sneaking is just an auto-success. So, once there is actually a chance for failure, THEN you ask for the check.
Example 2: Again, if there really is no chance of failure and no chance of ever being found via a perception check in the future, then I think that it's reasonable to declare an auto-success. However, is there really no chance that they didn't quite secure the lid of the crate exactly the way that they found it? Or scuffed up the nearby area? Or cast some sort of shadow that shouldn't be there? Or maybe someone might lift the crate and notice that it's too heavy?
Remember, a perception check isn't just being able to see a hidden creature. In fact, that's almost never what happens when "found" by a perception check. There are all sorts of other things that a creature might notice that could give away your position.
So, in this situation, if it's not actually an auto-success because of some of the reasons given above, but you DID eliminate the possibility of being heard, perhaps a DM could grant you advantage on your stealth check.
In regards to 1, my understanding is that the check to see if you are hiding occurs the moment you take the hide action, not at some future point when someone shows up. (Technically someone in the party could serve as attempting to see if they could spot anyone before hand... at least that is what I would want to do as a player since I know the check can just straight up fail).
And for 2. My assumptions are the PCs maintain the crate at all times, and combat is going to start prior to anyone being able to investigate it. Any issues with the lid doesn't necessarily reveal a person in it, especially if the bad guys for example only know of the PCs standing out of the crate. Basically I Feel like the PC in the crate should automatically have the Invisible condition, as it isn't reasonable someone would know they were in the crate. Obviously without the silence spell you can easily assume it was noise or something along those lines.
With example 1, yes, it's common for the DM to just ask for the stealth check right away since that's how most checks work -- you attempt something and you roll a check to see if you succeed or fail. But this is definitely not the best way to run it when it comes to stealth since the success or failure isn't determined at the moment that the creature actually hides -- it occurs at the moment that someone tries to find them. The character might try to hide and really should have no idea if they are doing a good job hiding. In 2014, the process was described as a "contest" instead of just a "check".
Just think about playing hide-and-seek in real life. You might hide under a bush and wait for a while before the seekers come to the area. While you are waiting around you really don't know if you picked a good hiding spot -- so what would that stealth roll actually represent, except for meta-knowledge that the character shouldn't have. When that seeker comes around and finds you right away under the bush, did you actually already know that you weren't well hidden? Probably not.
To me, just because there is now the minimum requirement of the DC 15 to successfully hide doesn't mean that the character should know if they hit that number or not. Again, in 2014 the process was described like this:
"The DM decides when circumstances are appropriate for hiding. When you try to hide, make a Dexterity (Stealth) check. Until you are discovered or you stop hiding, that check's total is contested by the Wisdom (Perception) check . . ."
So again, if there is never a creature that tries to find you and therefore there is never a contest, then this is just an auto-success -- what was the point of making the check ahead of time?
On the other hand, the meta-game consequences are really pretty terrible. "I plan to enter that room and sneak past that dragon." "Ok, roll stealth." "I rolled a 2. Hmm, never mind, I don't go into that room, I go the other way instead." That's just super bad in my opinion. That's just a free chance to succeed at something that should be very dangerous with no chance of failure. It's better to wait on the stealth roll until there are consequences.
As for example 2, if the whole idea with this setup is to just attempt to gain surprise on an upcoming battle, then narratively we can just be talking about whether or not the enemies managed to "notice a threat" quickly enough at the moment that you sprang your surprise attack out of the crate and then just roll your stealth check as normal. So, you aren't really measuring whether or not you are well hidden while you are waiting around in the crate -- you are measuring whether or not you were able to quickly and efficiently (and quietly?) pop-out from the crate, locate your targets and execute your attacks before they were able to react.
If instead the whole idea was to avoid being detected by a patrolling guard that was walking by and not initiate combat, then I would probably give advantage on that stealth check. Maybe there's occasionally a case where we just declare auto-success after a particularly creative solution, but I think that that should be somewhat rare so that the game does not become trivialized by a rinse-and-repeat solution.
I don't mean the character should know only that of player A failed it seems like player B should know.
It's trivial for a rogue with expertise to hit a DC of 15 most of the time, especially when someone can cast pass without a trace.