Let's say, I want to play some Sorcerer/Warlock multiclass. - Innate Sorcery affects only your Sorcerer spells/cantrips. - Agonizing Blast affects only your Warlock cantrips. - I take True Strike both as a part of my Sorcerer cantrips and my Warlock cantrips. I do that because I want to have Advantage on it from Innate Sorcery and more damage on it from Agonizing Blast.
Can I do that at all? - Aside from some Subclass features that target specific cantrips (i.e. Illusion Wizard lets you learn Minor Illusion, unless you already know it), I'm unable to find any restrictions that would stop me from learning to cast a single cantrip in the ways of my Sorcerous spellcasting, and according to my Pact Magic.
If I have it from both Classes, when I cast it does it count as both a Sorcerer and a Warlock cantrip, or do I have to specify? - I guess, it's possible to learn casting the same cantrip in 2 different ways and from 2 different sources, but is it the same cantrip at this point, or just 2 cantrips with the same effect and name?
Do I need to do that at all? - If I get True Strike just as one of my Sorcerer cantrips, does it count as a Warlock cantrip too just because it is present on the Warlock spell list?
What happens when I get a cantrip from another source, such as my Species, or an Origin Feat? - I suppose, it doesn't count for either Class at this point, or it counts only towards the cantrips of the Class that has it in the spell list?
Does anyone even care about such specificities, or am I bothering over nothing? :D :D - There are other Subclass features that don't specify at all what cantrip you're supposed to be using, i.e. Evoker's Potent Cantrip and Valor Bard's Extra Attack, so do I simply disregard such restrictions wherever I see them?
And just a disclaimer at the end: I'm aware that a DM can rule this out for me, but I wondered whether such an interaction is explained somewhere in the rules.
I believe for class features like this two copies of a cantrip are two separate instances that don't overlap, and class features only apply to the instance that you gained via that class. You can use Innate Sorcery or Agonizing Blast on a cast of it, but not both at once because you're casting either the Sorcerer or the Warlock version of the spell, even when the baseline calculations and effects are identical.
Just to add onto what Ace said above, to address your question #4: if you gain a spell from a feat or a species option, it doesn't count as coming from any of your classes.
There's some debate over this so we need make sure we're using the exact wording of each feature.
Innate sorcery says "You have Advantage on the attack rolls of Sorcerer spells you cast."
Agonizing blast says "Choose one of your known Warlock cantrips that deals damage. You can add your Charisma modifier to that spell’s damage rolls."
Innate sorcery does not say one of your spells prepared through the sorcerer class just a sorcerer spell you cast. True strike is a sorcerer cantrip regardless of how you get it even if you cast it through the pact magic feature it is still a sorcerer spell. Likewise innate magic would technically work when you cast scorching ray through a circlet of blasting since scorching ray is a sorcerer spell and you are casting it.
RAW it seems that if you grab true strike through warlock, because aganazing blast does specify that it has to be your warlock spell not just a warlock spell, then it should still gain advantage through innate sorcery.
I don't think that's RAI and people have argued over the forums about that picking a spell through one class makes it no longer a class spell for any other class (not RAW).
You can only use one class's spell casting feature to cast a spell but that doesn't make that spell no longer another class's spell. You see this with spell scrolls.
People will disagree with me but I ask them to show in the rules where it says that true strike is not a sorcerer cantrip when it is learned through another class. Each spell has in parentheses what classes have the spell and no where in the rules does it say that changes by learning it.
The "it exists on the class spell list, and therefore I can treat it like that class regardless of how I gained that spell" argument is specious, as backed up by how the D&D Beyond character sheet presents spells. I have Charm Person on my Warlock from the Fey-Touched feat. Charm Person is also a Warlock spell. The sheet reports that Charm Person spell as coming from Fey-Touched and doesn't apply the +1 bonus to DC of my Rod of the Pact Keeper because on this character sheet, Charm Person is not a Warlock spell. A class spell is a spell prepared by a class feature, as opposed to a spell from a class spell list.
In regards to the request for a specific rule, here it is:
If another Bard feature gives you spells that you always have prepared, those spells don’t count against the number of spells you can prepare with this feature, but those spells otherwise count as Bard spells for you.
This segment describes the conditions under which a spell you do not gain from the base class spellcasting feature is treated as a class spell. Note that "gained the spell from a different class" does not appear in it.
MeatLuggin IMO, Innate Sorcery applies if you're a Sorcerer (multiclass or not) and cast a spell from that class list as a Sorcerer because it's the one associated to your class, gained thanks to your spellcasting feature.
For example, if you are a level 3 Wizard / level 1 Sorcerer, and you cast Scorching Ray (at that moment, only your Wizard can do that), you won't roll with Advantage.
That's just how I'm ruling it, but I'm not looking to start a long discussion about it.
My recommendation for the OP is to read some related threads and make their own decision about how to rule the interactions:
The "it exists on the class spell list, and therefore I can treat it like that class regardless of how I gained that spell" argument is specious, as backed up by how the D&D Beyond character sheet presents spells. I have Charm Person on my Warlock from the Fey-Touched feat. Charm Person is also a Warlock spell. The sheet reports that Charm Person spell as coming from Fey-Touched and doesn't apply the +1 bonus to DC of my Rod of the Pact Keeper because on this character sheet, Charm Person is not a Warlock spell. A class spell is a spell prepared by a class feature, as opposed to a spell from a class spell list.
In regards to the request for a specific rule, here it is:
If another Bard feature gives you spells that you always have prepared, those spells don’t count against the number of spells you can prepare with this feature, but those spells otherwise count as Bard spells for you.
This segment describes the conditions under which a spell you do not gain from the base class spellcasting feature is treated as a class spell. Note that "gained the spell from a different class" does not appear in it.
No rules you cite here refutes what I've said. If anything your argument is specious. Your argument of this is how DnD beyond does it is bad. First DND beyond has issues. DND beyond is only telling you how to got the spell not whether it's on a class spell list or not. Your statement "A class spell is a spell prepared by a class feature, as opposed to a spell from a class spell list." is false and I ask you to show me in the rules that it says that. Your argument quoting part of the spell casting rules has nothing to do with taking a spell off the class list rather adding a spell that another class feature gives.
In the spellcasting rules it says "If a spell is on a class’s spell list, the class’s name appears in parentheses after the spell’s school of magic."
In each of the spellcasting features it says "The information below details how you use those rules with Sorcerer spells, which appear in the Sorcerer spell list later in the class’s description."
All that innate sorcery says for the advantage is "You have Advantage on the attack rolls of Sorcerer spells you cast." True strike is always a sorcerer, wizard, bard and warlock spell. What feature you cast with may differ but it is always all of those classes spell.
If you try to say that a spell is only a warlock spell when a warlock learns it then a wizard can't use a spell scroll or copy a spell scroll of Tasha's hideous laughter into their spell book written by a warlock because it would be the warlock Tasha's hideous laughter on the scroll not the wizard Tasha's hideous laughter.
RAW you get advantage with true strike regardless of how you learn it because it is a sorcerer spell. It doesn't say anywhere that you have to learn the sorcerer spell through the sorcerer class.
As I say before I don't think this is Rules as Intended but Rules as Written it would work. I also never said that you're using both spellcasting features to cast the spell. You're casting with the pact magic feature and because innate sorcery says sorcerer spells you cast (true strike is a sorcerer spell and there are no rules that say it isn't) you get advantage.
MeatLuggin IMO, Innate Sorcery applies if you're a Sorcerer (multiclass or not) and cast a spell from that class list as a Sorcerer because it's the one associated to your class, gained thanks to your spellcasting feature. For example, if you are a level 3 Wizard / level 1 Sorcerer, and you cast Scorching Ray (at that moment, only your Wizard can do that), you won't roll with Advantage.
That's just how I'm ruling it, but I'm not looking to start a long discussion about it.
My recommendation for the OP is to read some related threads and make their own decision about how to rule the interactions:
Truthfully I agree that's how a DM should rule it but that's not what the rules actually say. 2024 has tons of imprecise language that leads to this kind of interaction and WOTC added a cop out good faith clause to cover their imprecise writing. It would not be hard to change "You have Advantage on the attack rolls of Sorcerer spells you cast." to "You have advantage on the attack rolls of spells prepared through a sorcerer feature"
The post #4 by MeatLuggin is an unpopular interpretation, but it is the most correct RAW interpretation. At least until such time that some errata comes along to clean up how some of these terms are used in the general rules. It was actually this way in 2014 as well, but it is even more clear in the 2024 rules that it works this way.
The information below details how you use those rules with Sorcerer spells, which appear in theSorcerer spell list later in the class’s description.
and
The information below details how you use those rules with Warlock spells, which appear in theWarlock spell list later in the class’s description.
In regards to the request for a specific rule, here it is:
If another Bard feature gives you spells that you always have prepared, those spells don’t count against the number of spells you can prepare with this feature, but those spells otherwise count as Bard spells for you.
This segment describes the conditions under which a spell you do not gain from the base class spellcasting feature is treated as a class spell. Note that "gained the spell from a different class" does not appear in it.
Keep in mind that this rule is actually describing a method by which a Bard can have a spell that potentially does not even appear on the Bard Spell List count as a Bard spell. For example, the College of Lore Level 6 feature called "Magical Discoveries" can potentially allow that Bard to learn any appropriately leveled spell from the Cleric, Druid or Wizard spell lists, even if that spell does NOT appear on the Bard spell list and therefore is not normally a Bard spell. That Bard feature explicitly says that that spell is "always prepared", which is enough to automatically make it a "Bard Spell" due to the above rule that you have quoted.
However, you might learn a Bard spell in some other way. For example, you might acquire access to a Feat which allows that Bard to learn any appropriately leveled spell from the Cleric, Druid or Wizard spell lists, even if that spell does NOT appear on the Bard spell list and therefore is not normally a Bard spell. However, in this case, since the spell is being learned from a Feat and not from another Bard feature, then that Feat would have to explicitly declare that the spell counts as a Bard spell for you in order for it to be a Bard spell for you.
But by default, RAW dictates that the term "Bard spell" simply means that the spell appears on the Bard spell list.
Hmm, so here is an interesting scenario. If you took Agonizing Blast with Chill Touch as a Warlock, then prepared the spell again as a Sorcerer, could it benefit from both Innate Sorcery and Agonizing Blast for the same casting? I don't believe there is any rule that gives guidance on an issue where you prepare the same spell from two different classes where those classes grant different effects to their respective class spells.
Hmm, so here is an interesting scenario. If you took Agonizing Blast with Chill Touch as a Warlock, then prepared the spell again as a Sorcerer, could it benefit from both Innate Sorcery and Agonizing Blast for the same casting? I don't believe there is any rule that gives guidance on an issue where you prepare the same spell from two different classes where those classes grant different effects to their respective class spells.
RAW you don't need to prepare it a second time because the spell is both a warlock and sorcerer spell. You'd have to use the spellcasting feature that gave you the spell to cast it, but casting with pact magic doesn't forgo innate magic.
Hmm, so here is an interesting scenario. If you took Agonizing Blast with Chill Touch as a Warlock, then prepared the spell again as a Sorcerer, could it benefit from both Innate Sorcery and Agonizing Blast for the same casting? I don't believe there is any rule that gives guidance on an issue where you prepare the same spell from two different classes where those classes grant different effects to their respective class spells.
RAW you don't need to prepare it a second time because the spell is both a warlock and sorcerer spell. You'd have to choose which spellcasting feature you use to cast it but casting with pact magic doesn't forgo innate magic.
That is not RAW, that is what some people choose to interpret the layout of the books to imply, even when other parts of the layout and how the official character sheets are structured don't support it. The books don't provide an explicit "this is exactly how this works" ruling one way or another, and the Air Bud "it doesn't specifically say I can't, therefore RAW is that I can" principle is not what this system runs on.
RAW you don't need to prepare it a second time because the spell is both a warlock and sorcerer spell. You'd have to choose which spellcasting feature you use to cast it but casting with pact magic doesn't forgo innate magic.
That is not RAW, that is what some people choose to interpret the layout of the books to imply, even when other parts of the layout and how the official character sheets are structured don't support it. The books don't provide an explicit "this is exactly how this works" ruling one way or another, and the Air Bud "it doesn't specifically say I can't, therefore RAW is that I can" principle is not what this system runs on.
First if you think that the books don't provide a "this is exactly how this work" then why are you asserting that one one way is wrong and another right if it doesn't give instructions on how to do things?
Second my argument isn't as you describe it. I'm using the text of the rules and applying it to the situation. There is no "well it doesn't say I can't" argument, there's only a "this is what the rules tell me" argument. I've quoted the spellcasting features, rules in the spellcasting section, rules for spells, and innate magic. The spellcasting feature, chapter on spells, and the individual spells tell you what is a class spell. Innate magic says you get advantage on attack rolls of sorcerer spells and Ray of frost is a sorcerer spell regardless of what spellcasting feature you use to cast it. The rules say Ray of frost/true strike is a sorcerer spell so why should I not follow what the rules say? You have yet to show an exception to the rules I've listed that excludes a class spell from being a class spell.
A class’s spell list specifies the spells that belong to the class. For example, a Sorcerer spell is a spell on the Sorcerer spell list, and if a Sorcerer knows spells that aren’t on that list, those spells aren’t Sorcerer spells unless a feature says otherwise.
Honestly, it's good to finally see this included in the SAC.
And suddenly every CHA caster dips into Sorcerer for Innate Sorcery. Even if the spell existing on your list is all it takes to qualify as a class spell for features by RAW, stuff like this is why I’d never run it that way at a table.
Ya but then they added this to the end of the multiclassing section.
"A Wizard multiclasses into a Sorcerer with the Wild Magic Sorcery subclass. Do spells cast from their spellbook trigger Wild Magic Surge if they are on the Sorcerer spell list, or do they have to gain them from Sorcerer to trigger?
From the multiclassing rules: “Each spell you prepare is associated with one of your classes.” This rule means only the spells prepared as part of your Sorcerer class features trigger Wild Magic Surge."
They’re not contradictory as I read it- the first one is the general rule, and the multiclass supersedes it once you’re preparing spells from multiple class spellcasting features. Doesn’t help with at-will Invocations though, yeah.
Well, in that case, combining both answers, I guess this still holds true: if you are a level 3 Wizard / level 1 Sorcerer, and you cast Scorching Ray as a Wizard, you won't roll with Advantage.
Hello folks,
First, an example, questions below.
Let's say, I want to play some Sorcerer/Warlock multiclass.
- Innate Sorcery affects only your Sorcerer spells/cantrips.
- Agonizing Blast affects only your Warlock cantrips.
- I take True Strike both as a part of my Sorcerer cantrips and my Warlock cantrips. I do that because I want to have Advantage on it from Innate Sorcery and more damage on it from Agonizing Blast.
And just a disclaimer at the end:
I'm aware that a DM can rule this out for me, but I wondered whether such an interaction is explained somewhere in the rules.
Thanks in advance! :)
I believe for class features like this two copies of a cantrip are two separate instances that don't overlap, and class features only apply to the instance that you gained via that class. You can use Innate Sorcery or Agonizing Blast on a cast of it, but not both at once because you're casting either the Sorcerer or the Warlock version of the spell, even when the baseline calculations and effects are identical.
Just to add onto what Ace said above, to address your question #4: if you gain a spell from a feat or a species option, it doesn't count as coming from any of your classes.
pronouns: he/she/they
There's some debate over this so we need make sure we're using the exact wording of each feature.
Innate sorcery says "You have Advantage on the attack rolls of Sorcerer spells you cast."
Agonizing blast says "Choose one of your known Warlock cantrips that deals damage. You can add your Charisma modifier to that spell’s damage rolls."
Innate sorcery does not say one of your spells prepared through the sorcerer class just a sorcerer spell you cast. True strike is a sorcerer cantrip regardless of how you get it even if you cast it through the pact magic feature it is still a sorcerer spell. Likewise innate magic would technically work when you cast scorching ray through a circlet of blasting since scorching ray is a sorcerer spell and you are casting it.
RAW it seems that if you grab true strike through warlock, because aganazing blast does specify that it has to be your warlock spell not just a warlock spell, then it should still gain advantage through innate sorcery.
I don't think that's RAI and people have argued over the forums about that picking a spell through one class makes it no longer a class spell for any other class (not RAW).
You can only use one class's spell casting feature to cast a spell but that doesn't make that spell no longer another class's spell. You see this with spell scrolls.
People will disagree with me but I ask them to show in the rules where it says that true strike is not a sorcerer cantrip when it is learned through another class. Each spell has in parentheses what classes have the spell and no where in the rules does it say that changes by learning it.
The "it exists on the class spell list, and therefore I can treat it like that class regardless of how I gained that spell" argument is specious, as backed up by how the D&D Beyond character sheet presents spells. I have Charm Person on my Warlock from the Fey-Touched feat. Charm Person is also a Warlock spell. The sheet reports that Charm Person spell as coming from Fey-Touched and doesn't apply the +1 bonus to DC of my Rod of the Pact Keeper because on this character sheet, Charm Person is not a Warlock spell. A class spell is a spell prepared by a class feature, as opposed to a spell from a class spell list.
In regards to the request for a specific rule, here it is:
This segment describes the conditions under which a spell you do not gain from the base class spellcasting feature is treated as a class spell. Note that "gained the spell from a different class" does not appear in it.
For example, if you are a level 3 Wizard / level 1 Sorcerer, and you cast Scorching Ray (at that moment, only your Wizard can do that), you won't roll with Advantage.
That's just how I'm ruling it, but I'm not looking to start a long discussion about it.
My recommendation for the OP is to read some related threads and make their own decision about how to rule the interactions:
No rules you cite here refutes what I've said. If anything your argument is specious. Your argument of this is how DnD beyond does it is bad. First DND beyond has issues. DND beyond is only telling you how to got the spell not whether it's on a class spell list or not. Your statement "A class spell is a spell prepared by a class feature, as opposed to a spell from a class spell list." is false and I ask you to show me in the rules that it says that. Your argument quoting part of the spell casting rules has nothing to do with taking a spell off the class list rather adding a spell that another class feature gives.
In the spellcasting rules it says "If a spell is on a class’s spell list, the class’s name appears in parentheses after the spell’s school of magic."
In each of the spellcasting features it says "The information below details how you use those rules with Sorcerer spells, which appear in the Sorcerer spell list later in the class’s description."
All that innate sorcery says for the advantage is "You have Advantage on the attack rolls of Sorcerer spells you cast." True strike is always a sorcerer, wizard, bard and warlock spell. What feature you cast with may differ but it is always all of those classes spell.
If you try to say that a spell is only a warlock spell when a warlock learns it then a wizard can't use a spell scroll or copy a spell scroll of Tasha's hideous laughter into their spell book written by a warlock because it would be the warlock Tasha's hideous laughter on the scroll not the wizard Tasha's hideous laughter.
RAW you get advantage with true strike regardless of how you learn it because it is a sorcerer spell. It doesn't say anywhere that you have to learn the sorcerer spell through the sorcerer class.
As I say before I don't think this is Rules as Intended but Rules as Written it would work. I also never said that you're using both spellcasting features to cast the spell. You're casting with the pact magic feature and because innate sorcery says sorcerer spells you cast (true strike is a sorcerer spell and there are no rules that say it isn't) you get advantage.
Truthfully I agree that's how a DM should rule it but that's not what the rules actually say. 2024 has tons of imprecise language that leads to this kind of interaction and WOTC added a cop out good faith clause to cover their imprecise writing. It would not be hard to change "You have Advantage on the attack rolls of Sorcerer spells you cast." to "You have advantage on the attack rolls of spells prepared through a sorcerer feature"
The post #4 by MeatLuggin is an unpopular interpretation, but it is the most correct RAW interpretation. At least until such time that some errata comes along to clean up how some of these terms are used in the general rules. It was actually this way in 2014 as well, but it is even more clear in the 2024 rules that it works this way.
and
Keep in mind that this rule is actually describing a method by which a Bard can have a spell that potentially does not even appear on the Bard Spell List count as a Bard spell. For example, the College of Lore Level 6 feature called "Magical Discoveries" can potentially allow that Bard to learn any appropriately leveled spell from the Cleric, Druid or Wizard spell lists, even if that spell does NOT appear on the Bard spell list and therefore is not normally a Bard spell. That Bard feature explicitly says that that spell is "always prepared", which is enough to automatically make it a "Bard Spell" due to the above rule that you have quoted.
However, you might learn a Bard spell in some other way. For example, you might acquire access to a Feat which allows that Bard to learn any appropriately leveled spell from the Cleric, Druid or Wizard spell lists, even if that spell does NOT appear on the Bard spell list and therefore is not normally a Bard spell. However, in this case, since the spell is being learned from a Feat and not from another Bard feature, then that Feat would have to explicitly declare that the spell counts as a Bard spell for you in order for it to be a Bard spell for you.
But by default, RAW dictates that the term "Bard spell" simply means that the spell appears on the Bard spell list.
Hmm, so here is an interesting scenario. If you took Agonizing Blast with Chill Touch as a Warlock, then prepared the spell again as a Sorcerer, could it benefit from both Innate Sorcery and Agonizing Blast for the same casting? I don't believe there is any rule that gives guidance on an issue where you prepare the same spell from two different classes where those classes grant different effects to their respective class spells.
RAW you don't need to prepare it a second time because the spell is both a warlock and sorcerer spell. You'd have to use the spellcasting feature that gave you the spell to cast it, but casting with pact magic doesn't forgo innate magic.
Edited to remove an error
That is not RAW, that is what some people choose to interpret the layout of the books to imply, even when other parts of the layout and how the official character sheets are structured don't support it. The books don't provide an explicit "this is exactly how this works" ruling one way or another, and the Air Bud "it doesn't specifically say I can't, therefore RAW is that I can" principle is not what this system runs on.
First if you think that the books don't provide a "this is exactly how this work" then why are you asserting that one one way is wrong and another right if it doesn't give instructions on how to do things?
Second my argument isn't as you describe it. I'm using the text of the rules and applying it to the situation. There is no "well it doesn't say I can't" argument, there's only a "this is what the rules tell me" argument. I've quoted the spellcasting features, rules in the spellcasting section, rules for spells, and innate magic. The spellcasting feature, chapter on spells, and the individual spells tell you what is a class spell. Innate magic says you get advantage on attack rolls of sorcerer spells and Ray of frost is a sorcerer spell regardless of what spellcasting feature you use to cast it. The rules say Ray of frost/true strike is a sorcerer spell so why should I not follow what the rules say? You have yet to show an exception to the rules I've listed that excludes a class spell from being a class spell.
Honestly, it's good to finally see this included in the SAC.
And suddenly every CHA caster dips into Sorcerer for Innate Sorcery. Even if the spell existing on your list is all it takes to qualify as a class spell for features by RAW, stuff like this is why I’d never run it that way at a table.
Ya but then they added this to the end of the multiclassing section.
"A Wizard multiclasses into a Sorcerer with the Wild Magic Sorcery subclass. Do spells cast from their spellbook trigger Wild Magic Surge if they are on the Sorcerer spell list, or do they have to gain them from Sorcerer to trigger?
From the multiclassing rules: “Each spell you prepare is associated with one of your classes.” This rule means only the spells prepared as part of your Sorcerer class features trigger Wild Magic Surge."
Ah. That’s more like I thought. Wish they’d consolidated the answers then.
The problem is those two sage advice are contradictory and don't address the Eldritch invocation spells. We're no better than before the sage advice.
They’re not contradictory as I read it- the first one is the general rule, and the multiclass supersedes it once you’re preparing spells from multiple class spellcasting features. Doesn’t help with at-will Invocations though, yeah.
Well, in that case, combining both answers, I guess this still holds true: if you are a level 3 Wizard / level 1 Sorcerer, and you cast Scorching Ray as a Wizard, you won't roll with Advantage.
EDIT: sorry, I didn't see Ace's answer.