In D&D 5e 2024, Rogues are experts at hiding and can perform a special type of attack called a Sneak Attack that allows them to do more damage when they hit their opponent.
Situation:
During combat a rogue wants to sneak up on a goblin 15 feet away and perform a melee (within 5 feet) based sneak attack.
The rogue uses his bonus action to hide behind thick vegetation and is 3/4 concealed and rolls a 18, and thus has the Invisible condition.
During the same round, the rogue uses his Movement to move out of hiding to sneak up behind the goblin and then perform the Sneak Attack.
As part of the Hide action, it states that once he has the Invisible Condition, there are only a few things that can remove it, namely:
you make a sound louder than a whisper,
an enemy finds you (presumably through using their action to perform a Perception Check via the Search action and meeting or beating my 18.)
you make an attack roll,
or you cast a spell with a Verbal component.
Question 1: Do I lose my Invisible Conditionwhen I step out of the vegetation, sneak across the battle field to stab the goblin? Question 2: Am I limited to half movement when I move across the battle field (assumed to be sneaking)?
Below are the current rules on Sneak Attack, Hiding, and the Invisible Condition
Rogue Class - Level 1: Sneak Attack You know how to strike subtly and exploit a foe’s distraction. Once per turn, you can deal an extra 1d6 damage to one creature you hit with an attack roll if: you have Advantage on the roll and the attack uses a Finesse or a Ranged weapon. The extra damage’s type is the same as the weapon’s type. You don’t need Advantage on the attack roll if at least one of your allies is within 5 feet of the target, the ally doesn’t have the Incapacitated condition, and you don’t have Disadvantage on the attack roll.
Rogue Class Level 2: Cunning Action Your quick thinking and agility allow you to move and act quickly. On your turn, you can take one of the following actions as a Bonus Action: Dash, Disengage, or Hide. Hide [Action] With the Hide action, you try to conceal yourself. To do so, you must succeed on a DC 15 Dexterity (Stealth) check while you’re Heavily Obscured or behind Three-Quarters Cover or Total Cover, and you must be out of any enemy’s line of sight; if you can see a creature, you can discern whether it can see you. On a successful check, you have the Invisible condition. Make note of your check’s total, which is the DC for a creature to find you with a Wisdom (Perception) check.
The condition ends on you immediately after any of the following occurs:
You make a sound louder than a whisper,
an enemy finds you,
you make an attack roll,
or you cast a spell with a Verbal component.
Invisible Condition While you have the Invisible condition, you experience the following effects. Surprise. If you’re Invisible when you roll Initiative, you have Advantage on the roll. Concealed. You aren’t affected by any effect that requires its target to be seen unless the effect’s creator can somehow see you. Any equipment you are wearing or carrying is also concealed. Attacks Affected. Attack rolls against you have Disadvantage, and your attack rolls have Advantage. If a creature can somehow see you, you don’t gain this benefit against that creature.
Question 1: Do I lose my Invisible Conditionwhen I step out of the vegetation, sneak across the battle field to stab the goblin? Question 2: Am I limited to half movement when I move across the battle field (assumed to be sneaking)?
Taking the second question first:
There are no rules that would require you to move slower when sneaking in combat in terms of your Speed being reduced or each foot of movement requiring extra movement (such as in the rules for Difficult Terrain) or anything like that. However, if you were attempting to sneak in certain out-of-combat situations . . . if the "Travel Pace" rules are currently being used for that situation then you would roll your Stealth check with Disadvantage if traveling at a Fast or Normal pace.
As for the first question:
Currently, the 2024 rules for Hiding and especially the 2024 rules for the Invisible Condition are written very poorly, so you will get some different opinions as to how that question should be answered in terms of a RAW interpretation.
The basic idea is that there are some prerequisites that must be met in order to successfully hide. In short, you are trying to "conceal" your location by making yourself unseen and unheard. First, you must position yourself at a location that is out of sight someplace that obscures you from view -- whether or not you successfully find and locate yourself in such a place is determined by your DM ("The Dungeon Master decides when circumstances are appropriate for hiding"). That takes care of the unseen part. Next, while you are positioned in this manner, you must succeed on a DC 15 Stealth check -- that basically takes care of the unheard part (and the check also represents remaining unseen and unheard on an ongoing basis while "sneaking").
Now, the rules say that "on" a successful check you "have" the Invisible condition. Since the check remains active on an ongoing basis (it's used as the DC for future enemy Perception checks), it only makes sense to me that you have the condition as long as that check remains valid. After all, the check is meant to be a measure of how well concealed you are on an ongoing basis while people are potentially searching for you. If you voluntarily cease to remain concealed, then your Stealth check (and thus, your Invisible Condition) should become invalid from that moment forward . . . although that detail is not actually explicitly written in the rules currently.
Given this, my interpretation to your first question is: Yes -- you lose the Invisible Condition immediately upon stepping out into the open (you are no longer "concealed") . . . long before you make the attack against the goblin. That's interpretation #1.
Interpretation #2 is a middle ground where you would be able to succeed in what you've described in your question #1 because you would retain the Invisible Condition until the end of your turn, upon which the question of whether or not you are still hidden would be reevaluated. There's really nothing in the rules that supports this, although there are a few monster stat blocks which appear to have been written under this assumption.
Interpretation #3 is a particular way of reading the rules for the Hide action and the rules for the Invisible Condition such that the act of successfully hiding makes you permanently invisible, such that you can walk around in a busy town square for the entire day, and nobody ever sees you. In my opinion, this is not what the rules intended.
Thank you for your insight on the matter. I’m leaning toward your #2, and believe it follows RAW but depends on the assumption that I’m not just walking around, but continuing to sneak to get in position behind the goblin. In the Real World #1 is probably more reasonable, but so often we get advice that D&D rules don’t always follow real-world physics (weapon juggling, falling from a 1000 feet in 6 seconds, economies, …
I guess I’m looking for some common house rules on sneaking during combat that most tables and DMs are comfortable adopting. WOTC has strangely been very quiet on the subject of Hiding during combat.
In D&D 5e 2024, Rogues are experts at hiding and can perform a special type of attack called a Sneak Attack that allows them to do more damage when they hit their opponent.
Situation:
During combat a rogue wants to sneak up on a goblin 15 feet away and perform a melee (within 5 feet) based sneak attack.
The rogue uses his bonus action to hide behind thick vegetation and is 3/4 concealed and rolls a 18, and thus has the Invisible condition.
During the same round, the rogue uses his Movement to move out of hiding to sneak up behind the goblin and then perform the Sneak Attack.
As part of the Hide action, it states that once he has the Invisible Condition, there are only a few things that can remove it, namely:
you make a sound louder than a whisper,
an enemy finds you (presumably through using their action to perform a Perception Check via the Search action and meeting or beating my 18.)
you make an attack roll,
or you cast a spell with a Verbal component.
The "issue" I see in your example is that this edition of D&D doesn't have line of sight rules. It was an optional rule in 2014, but it's absent in the 2024 core rulebooks.
Because of that, I think you'd lose the Invisible condition in the third step unless you're in a Heavily Obscured or the DM decides it's reasonable to maintain it based on the situation.
IMO we need some guidance on the Hiding and Invisibility rules. Until then, I imagine each table will handle it in whatever way works best for their games and players.
Question 1: Do I lose my Invisible Conditionwhen I step out of the vegetation, sneak across the battle field to stab the goblin?
Not automatically. You are using the "fog of battle" here. You lose it if the goblin (or a different adversary) succeeds in a Search action (DC 18) to find you.
You probably also lose it if one of them has a Passive Perception score that can beat your 18. Per the glossary:
Passive Perception is a score that reflects a creature’s general awareness of its surroundings. The DM uses this score when determining whether a creature notices something without consciously making a Wisdom (Perception) check.
Oh, and you lose it when you stab the goblin. If you have the 2024 Supreme Sneak feature (from Thief), and you get back to a covered spot by the end of your turn (meaning you have the movement to do so), you don't lose it if you miss.
Question 2: Am I limited to half movement when I move across the battle field (assumed to be sneaking)?
No.
I could imagine a DM giving Search / Passive Perception disadvantage against you if you did that, but that's not RAW, and merely inspired by the 2014 version of Supreme Sneak. The DM has a lot of freedom here.
RAW for 2024 (and for 2014 unless using optional rules) either you lose invisibility immediately upon ceasing to be obscured, or you can spend all day out in the open still invisible as long as you don't do anything to cause you to lose the condition.
But Rule 1 is if the rules are an impediment to fun, the DM should change the rules. So talk with your DM and figure out a compromise that works for both of you.
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In D&D 5e 2024, Rogues are experts at hiding and can perform a special type of attack called a Sneak Attack that allows them to do more damage when they hit their opponent.
Situation:
Question 1: Do I lose my Invisible Condition when I step out of the vegetation, sneak across the battle field to stab the goblin?
Question 2: Am I limited to half movement when I move across the battle field (assumed to be sneaking)?
Below are the current rules on Sneak Attack, Hiding, and the Invisible Condition
Rogue Class - Level 1: Sneak Attack
You know how to strike subtly and exploit a foe’s distraction. Once per turn, you can deal an extra 1d6 damage to one creature you hit with an attack roll if: you have Advantage on the roll and the attack uses a Finesse or a Ranged weapon. The extra damage’s type is the same as the weapon’s type. You don’t need Advantage on the attack roll if at least one of your allies is within 5 feet of the target, the ally doesn’t have the Incapacitated condition, and you don’t have Disadvantage on the attack roll.
Rogue Class Level 2: Cunning Action
Your quick thinking and agility allow you to move and act quickly. On your turn, you can take one of the following actions as a Bonus Action: Dash, Disengage, or Hide. Hide [Action] With the Hide action, you try to conceal yourself. To do so, you must succeed on a DC 15 Dexterity (Stealth) check while you’re Heavily Obscured or behind Three-Quarters Cover or Total Cover, and you must be out of any enemy’s line of sight; if you can see a creature, you can discern whether it can see you. On a successful check, you have the Invisible condition. Make note of your check’s total, which is the DC for a creature to find you with a Wisdom (Perception) check.
The condition ends on you immediately after any of the following occurs:
Invisible Condition
While you have the Invisible condition, you experience the following effects.
Surprise. If you’re Invisible when you roll Initiative, you have Advantage on the roll.
Concealed. You aren’t affected by any effect that requires its target to be seen unless the effect’s creator can somehow see you. Any equipment you are wearing or carrying is also concealed.
Attacks Affected. Attack rolls against you have Disadvantage, and your attack rolls have Advantage. If a creature can somehow see you, you don’t gain this benefit against that creature.
Taking the second question first:
There are no rules that would require you to move slower when sneaking in combat in terms of your Speed being reduced or each foot of movement requiring extra movement (such as in the rules for Difficult Terrain) or anything like that. However, if you were attempting to sneak in certain out-of-combat situations . . . if the "Travel Pace" rules are currently being used for that situation then you would roll your Stealth check with Disadvantage if traveling at a Fast or Normal pace.
As for the first question:
Currently, the 2024 rules for Hiding and especially the 2024 rules for the Invisible Condition are written very poorly, so you will get some different opinions as to how that question should be answered in terms of a RAW interpretation.
The basic idea is that there are some prerequisites that must be met in order to successfully hide. In short, you are trying to "conceal" your location by making yourself unseen and unheard. First, you must position yourself at a location that is out of sight someplace that obscures you from view -- whether or not you successfully find and locate yourself in such a place is determined by your DM ("The Dungeon Master decides when circumstances are appropriate for hiding"). That takes care of the unseen part. Next, while you are positioned in this manner, you must succeed on a DC 15 Stealth check -- that basically takes care of the unheard part (and the check also represents remaining unseen and unheard on an ongoing basis while "sneaking").
Now, the rules say that "on" a successful check you "have" the Invisible condition. Since the check remains active on an ongoing basis (it's used as the DC for future enemy Perception checks), it only makes sense to me that you have the condition as long as that check remains valid. After all, the check is meant to be a measure of how well concealed you are on an ongoing basis while people are potentially searching for you. If you voluntarily cease to remain concealed, then your Stealth check (and thus, your Invisible Condition) should become invalid from that moment forward . . . although that detail is not actually explicitly written in the rules currently.
Given this, my interpretation to your first question is: Yes -- you lose the Invisible Condition immediately upon stepping out into the open (you are no longer "concealed") . . . long before you make the attack against the goblin. That's interpretation #1.
Interpretation #2 is a middle ground where you would be able to succeed in what you've described in your question #1 because you would retain the Invisible Condition until the end of your turn, upon which the question of whether or not you are still hidden would be reevaluated. There's really nothing in the rules that supports this, although there are a few monster stat blocks which appear to have been written under this assumption.
Interpretation #3 is a particular way of reading the rules for the Hide action and the rules for the Invisible Condition such that the act of successfully hiding makes you permanently invisible, such that you can walk around in a busy town square for the entire day, and nobody ever sees you. In my opinion, this is not what the rules intended.
Thank you for your insight on the matter. I’m leaning toward your #2, and believe it follows RAW but depends on the assumption that I’m not just walking around, but continuing to sneak to get in position behind the goblin. In the Real World #1 is probably more reasonable, but so often we get advice that D&D rules don’t always follow real-world physics (weapon juggling, falling from a 1000 feet in 6 seconds, economies, …
I guess I’m looking for some common house rules on sneaking during combat that most tables and DMs are comfortable adopting. WOTC has strangely been very quiet on the subject of Hiding during combat.
Thanks again
The "issue" I see in your example is that this edition of D&D doesn't have line of sight rules. It was an optional rule in 2014, but it's absent in the 2024 core rulebooks.
Because of that, I think you'd lose the Invisible condition in the third step unless you're in a Heavily Obscured or the DM decides it's reasonable to maintain it based on the situation.
IMO we need some guidance on the Hiding and Invisibility rules. Until then, I imagine each table will handle it in whatever way works best for their games and players.
I'm leaving some related threads here:
Not automatically. You are using the "fog of battle" here. You lose it if the goblin (or a different adversary) succeeds in a Search action (DC 18) to find you.
You probably also lose it if one of them has a Passive Perception score that can beat your 18. Per the glossary:
Passive Perception is a score that reflects a creature’s general awareness of its surroundings. The DM uses this score when determining whether a creature notices something without consciously making a Wisdom (Perception) check.
Oh, and you lose it when you stab the goblin. If you have the 2024 Supreme Sneak feature (from Thief), and you get back to a covered spot by the end of your turn (meaning you have the movement to do so), you don't lose it if you miss.
No.
I could imagine a DM giving Search / Passive Perception disadvantage against you if you did that, but that's not RAW, and merely inspired by the 2014 version of Supreme Sneak. The DM has a lot of freedom here.
Your DM determine when circumstances are appropriate for hiding and may rule that the goblin finds you if moving out of the obscured area.
RAW for 2024 (and for 2014 unless using optional rules) either you lose invisibility immediately upon ceasing to be obscured, or you can spend all day out in the open still invisible as long as you don't do anything to cause you to lose the condition.
But Rule 1 is if the rules are an impediment to fun, the DM should change the rules. So talk with your DM and figure out a compromise that works for both of you.