Reach. When you make an Unarmed Strike, your reach is 10 feet greater than normal , as elemental energy extends from you. - [From Elemental Attunement, Level 3 feature for Warrior of the Elements]
The condition also ends if the grappler has the Incapacitated condition or if the distance between the Grappled target and the grappler exceeds the grapple's range. - [From Grappling, PHP 2024 page 367]
My interpretation of this is that an elemental monk can grapple a target 15 feet from them, but the grapple then instantly ends.
1A) Do you agree?
1B) For the sake of argument, assume you agree: Can you think of any weird scenario where applying a fleetingly brief grapple would be of benefit, or change something meaningfully?
Elemental Strikes. ....When you deal one of these types with it , you can also force the target to make a Strength saving throw. On a failed save, you can move the target up to 10 feet toward or away from you , as elemental energy swirls around it [From Elemental Attunement, Level 3 feature for Warrior of the Elements]
1C) Is it possible to Grapple with the extended reach, and pull with Elemental Strikes (Assuming you have the Grappler feat, allowing you to damage and attempt a grapple at the same time, once per turn), in such a way that you end up with them next you and grappled?
Movable. The grappler can drag or carry you when it moves, but every foot of movement costs it 1extra foot unless you are Tiny or two or more sizes smaller than it. - [From Grappled, PHP 2024 page 367]
Assume you somehow have a less temporary reach with unarmed attacks. Magic item, magically altered size, have tentacles because you angered (or pleased?) a god of the deep...you know...the normal stuff. Assume you have used one...appendage to grapple an enemy (Bill) directly in front of you, and another to grapple an enemy (Steve) 15 feet to your right.
2A) If you move 15 feet to your left, can you opt to drag/carry Steve, but not Bill, and end up with both of them still grappled and now standing right next to each other?
I think you can, as the rule says you can drag a creature when you move, not that you must. And, from the above, the grapple on Bill won't end because he does not leave your range.
2B) Assuming 2A works, if on the next turn a party member drops a small AoE on Bill and Steve, are you in danger because you've got your grippies on them? RAW, I'm quite sure this is a no, but as a DM I do feel like I'd want to at least do like, a d4 to the grappler just for laughs. (Assuming everybody is on board and having fun blah blah blah)
Honestly, regardless of what the rules say, I would always allow someone with extra reach on their unarmed strikes to grapple someone within that reach and keep them grappled, since it seems ridiculous not to be able to do that.
Honestly, regardless of what the rules say, I would always allow someone with extra reach on their unarmed strikes to grapple someone within that reach and keep them grappled, since it seems ridiculous not to be able to do that.
I'm incline to agree. In the case of the elemental monk I'd just say the whip of fire (or whatever) that was flung out remains and is holding the enemy. That said, we are in the forum where RAW is king, soooo /shrug
1A) I agree, the grapple ends immediately because the distance bwteen the Grappled target and the grappler exceeds the grapple's range. Grapple is an effect of the Unarmed Strike. While Elemental Attunement is active, if the reach of your Unarmed Strike is 15 feet and you use the Grapple effect successfully, the target has the Grappled condition, and the grapple's range is therefore 15 feet while the energy lasts for 10 minutes.
1B) I can't think of a scenario where a brief grapple would matter besides perhaps triggering Reactions.
1C) Your Elemental Strikes only work when you use Unarmed Strike to Damage which does not Grapple unless you have the Grappler feat.
2A) Yes, you don't have to drag a Grappled creature when you move.
2B) A creature's space must be in the Area of Effect to be affected by it, merely having appendage in it is not enougth.
1C) Your Elemental Strikes only work when you use Unarmed Strike to Damage which does not Grapple unless you have the Grappler feat.
Granted, assume you have the Grappler feat. Which happens first? The grapple instantly ends, because they're out of reach, or you pull them and thus the grapple is maintained?
1C) Your Elemental Strikes only work when you use Unarmed Strike to Damage which does not Grapple unless you have the Grappler feat.
Granted, assume you have the Grappler feat. Which happens first? The grapple instantly ends, because they're out of reach, or you pull them and thus the grapple is maintained?
Simultaneous Effect when you hit and damage the target.
Basically at level 3 your Unarmed Strike would Hit: 1d6 + Dexterity modifier Acid, Cold, Fire, Lightning, or Thunder damage and the target must succeed on a Strength or Dexterity saving throw or it has the Grappled condition... When you deal one of these types with it, you can also force the target to make a Strength saving throw. On a failed save, you can move the target up to 10 feet toward or away from you, as elemental energy swirls around it.
Note that can use this benefit of Punch and Grab only once per turn and must use the Attack action.
I agree with Plague's explanations, but specifically for 1A), it was also debated in Ranged Grapple (Monk Warrior of the Elements) This was my opinion there, because I think it's relevant for keeping the Grapple that "The energy lasts for 10 minutes".
The D&D Beyond article about the Elements monk mentions using the reach to grapple and keep enemies at bay since their speed is now zero (https://www.dndbeyond.com/posts/1763-warrior-of-the-elements-monk-bend-the-elements-to) and seeing as Grapple is now a subset of unarmed strike, I would say that the additional reach for unarmed strike would apply as long as the grapple was active, as it's effectively an ongoing unarmed strike.
Yes, I also agree that it seems to be an intended interaction:
... the new Grappler feat combines exceptionally well with the Warrior of the Elements' extended reach and the 2024 Monk's ability to grapple using Dexterity ...
This feature uses the special elemental energy around you, and to me, that could be the reason if a worldbuilding explanation is needed :D
1C) Your Elemental Strikes only work when you use Unarmed Strike to Damage which does not Grapple unless you have the Grappler feat.
Granted, assume you have the Grappler feat. Which happens first? The grapple instantly ends, because they're out of reach, or you pull them and thus the grapple is maintained?
Simultaneous Effect when you hit and damage the target.
And related to this, which I also agree with applying that rule to, I'd like to share this interaction using that feat and Monk Warrior of the Elements as an example:
I'd apply the Simultaneous Effects rule in this scenario, so you can decide the order:
If two or more things happen at the same time on a turn, the person at the game table—player or DM—whose turn it is decides the order in which those things happen. For example, if two effects occur at the start of a player character’s turn, the player decides which of the effects happens first.
[...] Now that you mention it, I guess the combo of Tavern Brawler and Grappler is interesting.
You could deal damage, then Push (Tavern Brawler), and finally Grab (Grappler feat), assuming your Unarmed Strike reach is 10 feet for some reason (e.g. a Monk Warrior of the Elements)
1C) Your Elemental Strikes only work when you use Unarmed Strike to Damage which does not Grapple unless you have the Grappler feat.
Granted, assume you have the Grappler feat. Which happens first? The grapple instantly ends, because they're out of reach, or you pull them and thus the grapple is maintained?
Simultaneous Effect when you hit and damage the target.
And related to this, which I also agree with applying that rule to, I'd like to share this interaction using that feat and Monk Warrior of the Elements as an example:
I'd apply the Simultaneous Effects rule in this scenario, so you can decide the order:
If two or more things happen at the same time on a turn, the person at the game table—player or DM—whose turn it is decides the order in which those things happen. For example, if two effects occur at the start of a player character’s turn, the player decides which of the effects happens first.
[...] Now that you mention it, I guess the combo of Tavern Brawler and Grappler is interesting.
You could deal damage, then Push (Tavern Brawler), and finally Grab (Grappler feat), assuming your Unarmed Strike reach is 10 feet for some reason (e.g. a Monk Warrior of the Elements)
I guess one question might be if Creature A who is standing in space A grapples Creature B who is standing in space B . . . is any portion of Creature A occupying any portion of space B? In other words, can Creature B attack Creature A by explicitly targeting space B (his own space)?
RAW an Occupied Space is the one a creature is in. Grappling a creature in another space or square doesn<t make you occupy two spaces or squares.
[...] I just wasn’t sure if it was possible to be in my square (inside the fog) and drag a creature I grappled into a position such that their square was outside the fog.
I agree with the answers given by Plaguescarred, including the ones about vision, Heavily Obscured areas, and the Blinded condition, and I'd like to explain that this is also correct because "A creature belongs to a size category, which determines the width of the square space the creature occupies on a map, as shown on the Creature Size and Space table."
So assuming in your scenario both creatures are Medium, your 5 by 5 feet square is inside the fog and their 5 by 5 feet square is outside, as you're saying. In other words, grappling doesn't make both creatures share the same square/space.
Reach. When you make an Unarmed Strike, your reach is 10 feet greater than normal , as elemental energy extends from you. - [From Elemental Attunement, Level 3 feature for Warrior of the Elements]
The condition also ends if the grappler has the Incapacitated condition or if the distance between the Grappled target and the grappler exceeds the grapple's range. - [From Grappling, PHP 2024 page 367]
My interpretation of this is that an elemental monk can grapple a target 15 feet from them, but the grapple then instantly ends.
1A) Do you agree?
No.
For two reasons:
1) The range of the grapple is the reach of your unarmed strikes.
2) One of the fundamental principles of the 5e rules, is that, if a specific rule says you can do a thing, you can do the thing, even if there's a more general rule saying otherwise.
This ruling is a violation of that principle. Your unarmed strikes have extra range. Unarmed strikes include grappling. Therefore, your grapples have extra range. If you can spend your attack to grapple somebody, but it immediately ends, then you in no way have actually grappled somebody. There is no benefit to doing so. An ability that doesn't work is not an ability.
I agree with Plague's explanations, but specifically for 1A), it was also debated in Ranged Grapple (Monk Warrior of the Elements) This was my opinion there, because I think it's relevant for keeping the Grapple that "The energy lasts for 10 minutes".
After rereading my original opinion in that thread mentioned, i disagree with myself and agree with my old self :)
Grapple is an effect of the Unarmed Strike. While Elemental Attunement is active, if the reach of your Unarmed Strike is 15 feet and you use the Grapple effect successfully, the target has the Grappled condition, and the grapple's range is therefore 15 feet while the energy lasts for 10 minutes.
1B) For the sake of argument, assume you agree: Can you think of any weird scenario where applying a fleetingly brief grapple would be of benefit, or change something meaningfully?
Yes. If an Unarmed Strike is used as an Attack of Opportunity and the Grapple Condition is applied to the creature its Speed is reduced to 0 and cannot increase. So it can stop a creature from running into you casters and wrecking havoc.
1B) For the sake of argument, assume you agree: Can you think of any weird scenario where applying a fleetingly brief grapple would be of benefit, or change something meaningfully?
Yes. If an Unarmed Strike is used as an Attack of Opportunity and the Grapple Condition is applied to the creature its Speed is reduced to 0 and cannot increase. So it can stop a creature from running into you casters and wrecking havoc.
OdinTGE said to assume you have the Grappler feat, which Punch and Grab is used When you hit a creature with an Unarmed Strike as part of the Attack action on your turn....
1B) For the sake of argument, assume you agree: Can you think of any weird scenario where applying a fleetingly brief grapple would be of benefit, or change something meaningfully?
Yes. If an Unarmed Strike is used as an Attack of Opportunity and the Grapple Condition is applied to the creature its Speed is reduced to 0 and cannot increase. So it can stop a creature from running into you casters and wrecking havoc.
OdinTGE said to assume you have the Grappler feat, which Punch and Grab is used When you hit a creature with an Unarmed Strike as part of the Attack action on your turn....
You don't need to do a Punch and Grab to grapple. Just an unarmed strike. Since it's not on your turn you don't get the option to do damage and grapple, but the grapple is the useful part which applies to the question: Is there a scenario where a 15 foot reach grapple that ends immediately after being applied is useful. The answer is "yes, it stops movement".
1B) For the sake of argument, assume you agree: Can you think of any weird scenario where applying a fleetingly brief grapple would be of benefit, or change something meaningfully?
Yes. If an Unarmed Strike is used as an Attack of Opportunity and the Grapple Condition is applied to the creature its Speed is reduced to 0 and cannot increase. So it can stop a creature from running into you casters and wrecking havoc.
If the grapple immediately ends, the creature's speed is restored, and it can continue moving.
1B) For the sake of argument, assume you agree: Can you think of any weird scenario where applying a fleetingly brief grapple would be of benefit, or change something meaningfully?
Yes. If an Unarmed Strike is used as an Attack of Opportunity and the Grapple Condition is applied to the creature its Speed is reduced to 0 and cannot increase. So it can stop a creature from running into you casters and wrecking havoc.
OdinTGE said to assume you have the Grappler feat, which Punch and Grab is used When you hit a creature with an Unarmed Strike as part of the Attack action on your turn....
You don't need to do a Punch and Grab to grapple. Just an unarmed strike. Since it's not on your turn you don't get the option to do damage and grapple, but the grapple is the useful part which applies to the question: Is there a scenario where a 15 foot reach grapple that ends immediately after being applied is useful. The answer is "yes, it stops movement".
In a different scenario your point stand yes, but OP ask about Grappling + Elemental Strike which involve dealing damage, that only the feat Grappler will let the Monk do.
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My interpretation of this is that an elemental monk can grapple a target 15 feet from them, but the grapple then instantly ends.
Assume you somehow have a less temporary reach with unarmed attacks. Magic item, magically altered size, have tentacles because you angered (or pleased?) a god of the deep...you know...the normal stuff. Assume you have used one...appendage to grapple an enemy (Bill) directly in front of you, and another to grapple an enemy (Steve) 15 feet to your right.
I think you can, as the rule says you can drag a creature when you move, not that you must. And, from the above, the grapple on Bill won't end because he does not leave your range.
Honestly, regardless of what the rules say, I would always allow someone with extra reach on their unarmed strikes to grapple someone within that reach and keep them grappled, since it seems ridiculous not to be able to do that.
pronouns: he/she/they
I'm incline to agree. In the case of the elemental monk I'd just say the whip of fire (or whatever) that was flung out remains and is holding the enemy. That said, we are in the forum where RAW is king, soooo /shrug
1A)
I agree, the grapple ends immediately because the distance bwteen the Grappled target and the grappler exceeds the grapple's range.Grapple is an effect of the Unarmed Strike. While Elemental Attunement is active, if the reach of your Unarmed Strike is 15 feet and you use the Grapple effect successfully, the target has the Grappled condition, and the grapple's range is therefore 15 feet while the energy lasts for 10 minutes.1B) I can't think of a scenario where a brief grapple would matter besides perhaps triggering Reactions.
1C) Your Elemental Strikes only work when you use Unarmed Strike to Damage which does not Grapple unless you have the Grappler feat.
2A) Yes, you don't have to drag a Grappled creature when you move.
2B) A creature's space must be in the Area of Effect to be affected by it, merely having appendage in it is not enougth.
EDIT To Strikethrough
Granted, assume you have the Grappler feat. Which happens first? The grapple instantly ends, because they're out of reach, or you pull them and thus the grapple is maintained?
I wouldn't be surprised if Elemental Attunement: Reach was intended to be 10 feet greater than normal for your Grapple range as well.
Simultaneous Effect when you hit and damage the target.
I would believe that was RAI as well, but a strict RAW reading tells me that's not how it is.
Basically at level 3 your Unarmed Strike would Hit: 1d6 + Dexterity modifier Acid, Cold, Fire, Lightning, or Thunder damage and the target must succeed on a Strength or Dexterity saving throw or it has the Grappled condition... When you deal one of these types with it, you can also force the target to make a Strength saving throw. On a failed save, you can move the target up to 10 feet toward or away from you, as elemental energy swirls around it.
Note that can use this benefit of Punch and Grab only once per turn and must use the Attack action.
I agree with Plague's explanations, but specifically for 1A), it was also debated in Ranged Grapple (Monk Warrior of the Elements) This was my opinion there, because I think it's relevant for keeping the Grapple that "The energy lasts for 10 minutes".
EDIT: for clarity.
And related to this, which I also agree with applying that rule to, I'd like to share this interaction using that feat and Monk Warrior of the Elements as an example:
All good stuff, thanks for the info.
You're always welcome!
For 2B), a couple of technical explanations:
No.
For two reasons:
1) The range of the grapple is the reach of your unarmed strikes.
2) One of the fundamental principles of the 5e rules, is that, if a specific rule says you can do a thing, you can do the thing, even if there's a more general rule saying otherwise.
This ruling is a violation of that principle. Your unarmed strikes have extra range. Unarmed strikes include grappling. Therefore, your grapples have extra range. If you can spend your attack to grapple somebody, but it immediately ends, then you in no way have actually grappled somebody. There is no benefit to doing so. An ability that doesn't work is not an ability.
After rereading my original opinion in that thread mentioned, i disagree with myself and agree with my old self :)
Yes. If an Unarmed Strike is used as an Attack of Opportunity and the Grapple Condition is applied to the creature its Speed is reduced to 0 and cannot increase. So it can stop a creature from running into you casters and wrecking havoc.
OdinTGE said to assume you have the Grappler feat, which Punch and Grab is used When you hit a creature with an Unarmed Strike as part of the Attack action on your turn....
You don't need to do a Punch and Grab to grapple. Just an unarmed strike. Since it's not on your turn you don't get the option to do damage and grapple, but the grapple is the useful part which applies to the question: Is there a scenario where a 15 foot reach grapple that ends immediately after being applied is useful. The answer is "yes, it stops movement".
If the grapple immediately ends, the creature's speed is restored, and it can continue moving.
In a different scenario your point stand yes, but OP ask about Grappling + Elemental Strike which involve dealing damage, that only the feat Grappler will let the Monk do.