More specifically: when I cast Cloud of Daggers (target a spot in range) into a Darkness (spell) can I do so on the spot, assuming I have seen the spot before the Darkness was cast? Can the DM tell the player to roll for an error of let's say 5ft?
Unless otherwise specified, you do not need to be able to see the location at which you cast a spell, however it should be otherwise unobstructed (not behind total cover such as being behind a wall).
Of course you're casting blind and while you do not need to see the location, you do have to basically guess at the correct location, so casting into somewhere you can't see isn't always the greatest option. You might end out hitting nothing, or even harming allies in the worst situations, so it's not something to casually do.
Clear Path is clearly defined as not behind total cover, so if you're trying to cast a spell and hit something that'd supply total cover, you can not cast through that. The DM might allow you to still cast the spell but have it effectively target the object that supplies total cover, that is down to the DM's discretion.
As for Blind and Guessing, you're basically going to describe where you're trying to cast it, you only have the information you have seen, so if the darkness were say the result of the darkness spell but you saw the area before it was cat, you could attempt to cast at a particular point but if the darkness was always there, you're just guessing. DM can handle guessing how they like tho.
In this particular case it does not matter at all that you cannot see the target location -- that's not something that this spell requires. You can place the center of the cube anywhere within range since that's what the spell says (interestingly, this is not normally how cube AoEs work according to the rules for a cube AoE, but this spell explicitly explains how its cube works so this detail is a specific vs general exception).
As always, the clear path rule requires that the target of the spell cannot be behind total cover. But the Darkness spell does not create cover so it would have no impact on that rule.
More specifically: when I cast Cloud of Daggers (target a spot in range) into a Darkness (spell) can I do so on the spot, assuming I have seen the spot before the Darkness was cast?
Yes, you can target the exact spot that is intended. You do not even have to have seen the spot before the Darkness was cast. You can simply pick a spot that is within range as per the spell description.
Can the DM tell the player to roll for an error of let's say 5ft?
That would be a house rule. There is nothing about the spell description or the general rules for spellcasting that would require anything like that for this situation. The spell allows the spellcaster to pick an exact location for the origin point of the spell's effect. (It's magic!)
So, how do we represent "blind and guessing" and interpret the "clear path"?
There is no need to represent "blind and guessing" since the spell allows for 100% accuracy when choosing any location within range, whether or not you can see that location.
The "clear path" is a separate concept that has to do with the rules for cover, which has to do with physical obstacles, not merely obscured areas. If there is a physical obstacle within the area of the Darkness spell, it might interrupt your clear path to certain locations -- this obstacle would do this regardless of whether or not it happens to be located within an area of Darkness.
However, if such an obstacle DOES exist within an area of Darkness such that you cannot see the obstacle when you attempt to cast your spell, there is also this special rule that applies specifically to AoE spells (such as Cloud of Daggers):
If the creator of an area of effect places it at an unseen point and an obstruction—such as a wall—is between the creator and that point, the point of origin comes into being on the near side of the obstruction.
There is no need to represent "blind and guessing" since the spell allows for 100% accuracy when choosing any location within range, whether or not you can see that location.
I will be more clear on this, what I mean by blind and guessing, you do not know where things are in the darkness so you're only guessing where things might be and that can lead to issues like trying to cast spells in a point that is not valid to be cast in. Since you're blind, it is down to the DM to determine how to handle it if you select somewhere that in fact is not valid to cast.
Some spells like Dimension Door specify what happens if you guess and get it wrong, most spells do not.
The title says 2024, but the rules are essentially the same as in 2014 in terms of targeting. Spells that say "that you can see" or similar wording require the caster to be able to see the target or the point of origin. Not the case for Cloud of Daggers.
Darkness creates an Heavily Obscured area and, as you said, you have the Blinded condition while trying to see something in that space. But Darkness is not creating Total Cover. So in this context, "clear path" does not mean a path that is see-through; it means a path that is physically uninterrupted.
A Clear Path to the Target. To target something with a spell, a caster must have a clear path to it, so it can’t be behind Total Cover.
But if, for some reason, it's interrupted (e.g., you didn’t know there was a wall in the way, or for the reason R3sistance gave, etc.), then:
Area of Effect [...] An area of effect has a point of origin, a location from which the effect’s energy erupts. The rules for each shape specify how to position its point of origin. If all straight lines extending from the point of origin to a location in the area of effect are blocked, that location isn’t included in the area of effect. To block a line, an obstruction must provide Total Cover. See also “Cover.”
If the creator of an area of effect places it at an unseen point and an obstruction—such as a wall—is between the creator and that point, the point of origin comes into being on the near side of the obstruction.
In my game no need for guessing, wether you see or not, you conjure spinning Cloud of Daggers in a 5-foot Cube centered on a point within 60 feet and each creature in that area takes damage.
In my game no need for guessing, wether you see or not, you conjure spinning Cloud of Daggers in a 5-foot Cube centered on a point within 60 feet and each creature in that area takes damage.
And if it's an area of magical darkness, how do you know if there are creatures in that area to begin with?
I am not saying that the spell mechanically acts any different, I am saying that you're taking a risk that you're wasting an action and spell slot by having the spell either miss any creatures entirely or it ends out against the side of a wall because there is total cover in the way.
I think the issue here is everyone agrees the spell pops up exactly where you want it to, the question is if you can’t see that area in question, how do you know where you want it to without metagaming. The player might know just where the enemies and allies are, but if the character has no way of seeing into the darkness, how can they accurately place the spell?
I think the issue here is everyone agrees the spell pops up exactly where you want it to, the question is if you can’t see that area in question, how do you know where you want it to without metagaming. The player might know just where the enemies and allies are, but if the character has no way of seeing into the darkness, how can they accurately place the spell?
As an experienced spellcaster, your character might say: "I can't see, but I cast Fireball 20 feet in front of me! Good luck, friends and enemies—let’s hope the DM didn't put a wall there!" :D
Just imagine you enter a room 15 feet by 20 feet but one of the 20 feet long walls appears to actually be a wall of magical darkness. The party Barbarian walks up to the wall and 4 skeletons jump out that attack the Barbarian before running back into the darkness. The Barbarian manages to hit one as it flees and it collapses to the floor, next up is the wizard.
The wizard decides to fling a fireball after them, 20 feet into the darkness but it turns out the room is 20 by 20 feet, the fireball hits a wall 5 feet into the darkness and explodes, hitting the Barbarian if not other members of the party. There were two corridors which the skeletons actually ran back down; Trying to bait a trap setup by their necromancer master.
In my game no need for guessing, wether you see or not, you conjure spinning Cloud of Daggers in a 5-foot Cube centered on a point within 60 feet and each creature in that area takes damage.
And if it's an area of magical darkness, how do you know if there are creatures in that area to begin with?
I am not saying that the spell mechanically acts any different, I am saying that you're taking a risk that you're wasting an action and spell slot by having the spell either miss any creatures entirely or it ends out against the side of a wall because there is total cover in the way.
Unless the creatures in Darkness are hidden the caster will know either because it saw them going there or i've let them know at the begining of the encounter.
In D&D 5E, spellcasters have ultra developped sense of distance, and are able to place area of effects at very precise location of their choosing often despite not seeing defying all logic, as if the magic weave was sort of briefly getting grided with intersecting lines :)
Seriously though, as DM i don't bog down the game with these details and let casters do their thing unless the spell or effect specifically require seeing the point of origin.
In D&D 5E, spellcasters have ultra developped sense of distance, and are able to place area of effects at very precise location of their choosing often despite not seeing defying all logic, as if the magic weave was sort of briefly getting grided with intersecting lines :)
Seriously though, as DM i don't bog down the game with these details and let casters do their thing unless the spell or effect specifically require seeing the point of origin.
This is how I'm doing it, really.
PS. From time to time, an unexpected surprise like the one R3sistance pictured sounds fun :)
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Do I need to see the spot where I cast it to?
More specifically: when I cast Cloud of Daggers (target a spot in range) into a Darkness (spell) can I do so on the spot, assuming I have seen the spot before the Darkness was cast? Can the DM tell the player to roll for an error of let's say 5ft?
Hussah!
Max
Unless otherwise specified, you do not need to be able to see the location at which you cast a spell, however it should be otherwise unobstructed (not behind total cover such as being behind a wall).
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/dnd/phb-2024/spells#Targets
Of course you're casting blind and while you do not need to see the location, you do have to basically guess at the correct location, so casting into somewhere you can't see isn't always the greatest option. You might end out hitting nothing, or even harming allies in the worst situations, so it's not something to casually do.
So, how do we represent "blind and guessing" and interpret the "clear path"?
These things can lead to hefty arguments ... :-)
Clear Path is clearly defined as not behind total cover, so if you're trying to cast a spell and hit something that'd supply total cover, you can not cast through that. The DM might allow you to still cast the spell but have it effectively target the object that supplies total cover, that is down to the DM's discretion.
As for Blind and Guessing, you're basically going to describe where you're trying to cast it, you only have the information you have seen, so if the darkness were say the result of the darkness spell but you saw the area before it was cat, you could attempt to cast at a particular point but if the darkness was always there, you're just guessing. DM can handle guessing how they like tho.
In this particular case it does not matter at all that you cannot see the target location -- that's not something that this spell requires. You can place the center of the cube anywhere within range since that's what the spell says (interestingly, this is not normally how cube AoEs work according to the rules for a cube AoE, but this spell explicitly explains how its cube works so this detail is a specific vs general exception).
As always, the clear path rule requires that the target of the spell cannot be behind total cover. But the Darkness spell does not create cover so it would have no impact on that rule.
No.
Yes, you can target the exact spot that is intended. You do not even have to have seen the spot before the Darkness was cast. You can simply pick a spot that is within range as per the spell description.
That would be a house rule. There is nothing about the spell description or the general rules for spellcasting that would require anything like that for this situation. The spell allows the spellcaster to pick an exact location for the origin point of the spell's effect. (It's magic!)
There is no need to represent "blind and guessing" since the spell allows for 100% accuracy when choosing any location within range, whether or not you can see that location.
The "clear path" is a separate concept that has to do with the rules for cover, which has to do with physical obstacles, not merely obscured areas. If there is a physical obstacle within the area of the Darkness spell, it might interrupt your clear path to certain locations -- this obstacle would do this regardless of whether or not it happens to be located within an area of Darkness.
However, if such an obstacle DOES exist within an area of Darkness such that you cannot see the obstacle when you attempt to cast your spell, there is also this special rule that applies specifically to AoE spells (such as Cloud of Daggers):
We'll black out the area in the VTT and the DM narrates to the players with blindsight and the caster what they see.
Problem solved :-)
The title says 2024, but the rules are essentially the same as in 2014 in terms of targeting. Spells that say "that you can see" or similar wording require the caster to be able to see the target or the point of origin. Not the case for Cloud of Daggers.
Darkness creates an Heavily Obscured area and, as you said, you have the Blinded condition while trying to see something in that space. But Darkness is not creating Total Cover. So in this context, "clear path" does not mean a path that is see-through; it means a path that is physically uninterrupted.
But if, for some reason, it's interrupted (e.g., you didn’t know there was a wall in the way, or for the reason R3sistance gave, etc.), then:
In my game no need for guessing, wether you see or not, you conjure spinning Cloud of Daggers in a 5-foot Cube centered on a point within 60 feet and each creature in that area takes damage.
And if it's an area of magical darkness, how do you know if there are creatures in that area to begin with?
I am not saying that the spell mechanically acts any different, I am saying that you're taking a risk that you're wasting an action and spell slot by having the spell either miss any creatures entirely or it ends out against the side of a wall because there is total cover in the way.
I think the issue here is everyone agrees the spell pops up exactly where you want it to, the question is if you can’t see that area in question, how do you know where you want it to without metagaming. The player might know just where the enemies and allies are, but if the character has no way of seeing into the darkness, how can they accurately place the spell?
As an experienced spellcaster, your character might say: "I can't see, but I cast Fireball 20 feet in front of me! Good luck, friends and enemies—let’s hope the DM didn't put a wall there!" :D
I do not know if it needs to go into metagaming.
Just imagine you enter a room 15 feet by 20 feet but one of the 20 feet long walls appears to actually be a wall of magical darkness. The party Barbarian walks up to the wall and 4 skeletons jump out that attack the Barbarian before running back into the darkness. The Barbarian manages to hit one as it flees and it collapses to the floor, next up is the wizard.
The wizard decides to fling a fireball after them, 20 feet into the darkness but it turns out the room is 20 by 20 feet, the fireball hits a wall 5 feet into the darkness and explodes, hitting the Barbarian if not other members of the party. There were two corridors which the skeletons actually ran back down; Trying to bait a trap setup by their necromancer master.
Not a common issue, granted.
Unless the creatures in Darkness are hidden the caster will know either because it saw them going there or i've let them know at the begining of the encounter.
In D&D 5E, spellcasters have ultra developped sense of distance, and are able to place area of effects at very precise location of their choosing often despite not seeing defying all logic, as if the magic weave was sort of briefly getting grided with intersecting lines :)
Seriously though, as DM i don't bog down the game with these details and let casters do their thing unless the spell or effect specifically require seeing the point of origin.
This is how I'm doing it, really.
PS. From time to time, an unexpected surprise like the one R3sistance pictured sounds fun :)