So one of my friends want's to play the new soulknife archetype that's being play tested. The biggest problem we are running into is dual wielding the psychic knives. It say's
"After you attack with the blade, you can make a melee or ranged weapon attack with a second psychic blade as a bonus action on the same turn, provided your other hand is free to create it. The damage die of this bonus attack is 1d4, instead of 1d6."
Does this attack add the modifier, or does it deny it as per two-weapon fighting rules? Is this just a bonus action given by the class, or is this an alteration to the already existing dual wield bonus attack?
It adds it because this doesn't use two-weapon fighting rules, it's a class specific ability. It's a bonus action rider on the first psychic blade attack, for example you can't use it when attacking with a non-psychic blade attack.
OK, so I am stretching here. Can a rogue attack with a short sword and psychic blade (1d6) ? Can he eventually use shortsword, first psychic blade and then second psychic blade ? Since he has a free hand. And if yes, could the shortsword be replaced by a Rapier ?
While the feature closely resembles two weapon fighting mechanics, there are some differences. The most important one being that when the feature goes into detail describing the psychic blade as a weapon, it does not have the light property. The psychic blades are incompatible with two weapon fighting since they lack that light property.
I believe this means the psychic blades can’t be used with other weapons on the same turn, unless a feature like action surge, extra attack, or the duel wielder feat are available. The dual wielder feat would be a waste since when the psychic blade disappears your no longer dual wielding, and lose your AC bonus. The stowing and unsheathing of multiple weapons part would also be a total waste.
Thanks....that's what we taught too... What I basically wanted to do, was use my shortsword and the first psychic blade (1d6). But as I kept reading....I new I was DOOMED !!!! But it would be nice if the damage of the psychic blade would increase as we level Ex.: d8-d10, etc, which I don't think it does.
You are correct in that the psychic blade weapon damage doesn’t scale, but there are a few ways to increase it a bit.
• since the physics blades manifest and immediately disappear, you can make use it with the dueling fighting style to add a +2 to damage on the blades. This works for the 1d6 and 1d4 blade, so long as your not wielding another weapon. This stacks with the stat modifier damage, similar to how dueling can stack with the polearm master feat if you choose to use a spear or quarterstaff.
• the intent and the raw is a little unclear until some clarification is released but if your table comes to the conclusion that the psychic blades can manifest on each attack when using multiclass rules, it may be worth it damage wise to get to level 5 in another martial class. Especially with the dueling fighting style being an option. Psi warrior and fey wanderer are mechanically and thematically appropriate.
Don't want to be a nuisance, but I don't see the +2 damage in the Duel weilding feat. Here is what I read:
You master fighting with two weapons, gaining the following benefits:
You gain a +1 bonus to AC while you are wielding a separate melee weapon in each hand.
You can use two-weapon fighting even when the one-handed melee weapons you are wielding aren't light.
You can draw or stow two one-handed weapons when you would normally be able to draw or stow only one.
Am I missing something ?
Dueling Fighting Style, not Dual Wielder Feat. =)
Regarding using it as the bonus attack from Two-Weapon Fighting, you can't. Psychic Blades says that when you take the Attack action, you can manifest the blade and make the attack with it, meaning the attack you get from the Attack action. It does not say you can manifest a blade and use it for whatever purposes you want, so it won't stay in your hand while you perform an attack with another weapon. It only manifests if/when you're using it as part of the Attack action.
You could do it the other way around, though: attack with the Psychic Blade using your Attack action, then with a short sword using your bonus action from Two-Weapon Fighting, but you'd need the Dual Wielder Feat, since Psychic Blades aren't light.
A multiclassed Soulknife with access to Extra Attack could use a Psychic Blade as one of their primary attacks (i.e. the attacks from the Attack action, boosted by Extra Attack), but only one, since the rules for Psychic Blades only mention manifesting one blade as part of the Attack action. Arguably, it would have to be the first attack, given the timing indicated by the rules ("manifest a psychic blade [...] and make the attack").
Finally, although not part of the original question, do bear in mind Psychic Blades cannot be used for Opportunity Attacks, since you can only manifest them as part of the Attack action, or as a bonus action after having used the Attack action to attack with a Psychic Blade. There is no proviso for manifesting a Psychic Blade as part of a Reaction, or as part of an attack in generic circumstances.
As a note: the Psychic Blade's "damage scaling" is generally supposed to come from the rogue's Sneak Attack feature. Much like base weapons, all the Soulknife's damage comes from Sneak Attack, not its actual weapon hits. The knife is just a carrier for your sneak damage that people can't take away from you.
Not necessarily. You can never be disarmed of your psychic blades - so long as your brain is intact, you've got those blades. Psychic damage is a powerful damage type. And also the psychic blades are the entire lifeblood of the Soulknife and a requirement for most of their cool subclass features. If one is not interested in using their psychic knives, I have to question why one would play the Soulknife in the first place.
Not necessarily. You can never be disarmed of your psychic blades - so long as your brain is intact, you've got those blades. Psychic damage is a powerful damage type. And also the psychic blades are the entire lifeblood of the Soulknife and a requirement for most of their cool subclass features. If one is not interested in using their psychic knives, I have to question why one would play the Soulknife in the first place.
Also, you can throw them w/o losing your magic weapons. One problem with magic daggers is you can really only use 'em for melee; once you throw one, it's gone until you go fetch it... which is unlikely to be easy to do mid-combat, if you're throwing them.
the point about being unable to summon a second psychic blade with your attack action is the part I was talking about when table agreement pops up.
there are several features in the game that utilize very similar wording but are treated differently in regard to ruling clarifications and errata’d that sometimes follow.
psychic blade info. “Whenever you take the Attack action, you can manifest a psychic blade from your free hand and make the attack with that blade.” Now, like I said there are several features that have been rules in either direction with the similar language, some with errata and others not.
The usual key words that people seem to gravitate towards and understand easily at first glance are missing. Some examples include “once per turn”, “once on your turn”, “once per round”, “one target...”, and “one roll”. When we look at features that augment actions there is more context provided as examples of language used, but that’s inconsistent with some rulings.
Ranger gloomstalkers dread ambusher augments an action by “If you take the Attack action on that turn, you can make one additional weapon attack as part of that action.” this feature describes the additional attack given by type and limits to 1 per action.
scorcerer:draconic bloodline feature old. “Starting at 6th level, when you casta spell that deals damage of the type associated with your draconic ancestry, add your Charisma modifier to that damage.” It was widely interpreted to deal bonus damage on subsequent damage rolls of a single casting of an ongoing spell. Apparently wasn’t intended and was errata’d
Sorcerer: draconic bloodline feature elemental affinity erratad. “Starting at 6th level, when you cast a spell that deals damage of the type associated with your draconic ancestry, you can add your Charisma modifier to one damage roll of that spell.” now limited to bonus damage to a single damage roll regardless of how many rolls may be possible from the same spell. The errata clarified this intent by adding additional information, instead of letting people continue to argue over how the “tense” of the language describing the actions use somehow limited the feature.
All that being said, if a feature says you “can” do something, and the other features requirements are satisfied, then you can make use of that feature any number of times unless a limit is placed on it.
Fighters extra attack feature: “EXTRA ATTACK Beginning at 5th level, you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn. The number of attacks increases to three when you reach 1 1th level in this class and to four when you reach 20th level in this class.”. this feature augments your attack action by saying you “can” make additional attacks, and places a limitation on the maximum amount of attacks you “can” shooed to make. You are free to make the choice to attack less than your maximum number of times at any time, but never go over the cap given by the feature.
psychic blade info. “Whenever you take the Attack action, you can manifest a psychic blade from your free hand and make the attack with that blade.” Let’s highlight requirements that need to be satisfied IF it is possible to manifest a blade multiple times. • hand is required to be “free” or empty. • you need to take the attack action • you take the attack action with empty hands, and you now manifest a blade for an attack because the feature says you can. • the attack you make from attack roll to a possible damage roll is resolved • immediately after the attack with the psychic blade is resolved the psychic blade disappears, leaving your hand empty again. This at least partially makes the feature available to be used again with the same action • your player characters is multiclass And has access to the extra attack feature.
big question that I can’t find clear information on myself, and will be deeply appreciative if anyone has any reference or ruling:
does your “take the attack action” end after the initial attack if you’re still taking the action? My guess is no since even from a design and balance standpoint, they limited the rogue base class sneak attack feature to once per turn on to reduce damage output from the base class and also for multiclass combinations.
there’s also the weird interaction that may potentially let a creature with a natural weapon make use of a blade with both hands empty even is the extra attack option is for some reason limited with psychic blades. Creature takes attack action, makes an attack with a natural weapon like a set of horns, your hands are still empty so you still “can” manifest the blades. The feature doesn’t require the blade to be the first attack.
maybe a good feature to compare context wise would be the “rapid strike” feature from the samarai. “If you take the attack action and have advantage on an attack roll against one of the targets, you can forgo advantage for that roll to make an additional weapon attack against that target, as part of the same action. You can do so no more than once per turn”. this feature has the same wording in regard to “take the attack action” and the feature seems to apply to the entire attack action.
The editing of player class features, to my frustration, always seem different and wordy in new books. It’s like they refuse to learn from the wording mistakes they’ve made, even when taking into account similar features that have already been cleaned up by sage advice and erratas. Poorly worded reactions really rub me the wrong way.
the point about being unable to summon a second psychic blade with your attack action is the part I was talking about when table agreement pops up.
there are several features in the game that utilize very similar wording but are treated differently in regard to ruling clarifications and errata’d that sometimes follow.
psychic blade info. “Whenever you take the Attack action, you can manifest a psychic blade from your free hand and make the attack with that blade.” Now, like I said there are several features that have been rules in either direction with the similar language, some with errata and others not.
The usual key words that people seem to gravitate towards and understand easily at first glance are missing. Some examples include “once per turn”, “once on your turn”, “once per round”, “one target...”, and “one roll”. When we look at features that augment actions there is more context provided as examples of language used, but that’s inconsistent with some rulings.
Ranger gloomstalkers dread ambusher augments an action by “If you take the Attack action on that turn, you can make one additional weapon attack as part of that action.” this feature describes the additional attack given by type and limits to 1 per action.
scorcerer:draconic bloodline feature old. “Starting at 6th level, when you casta spell that deals damage of the type associated with your draconic ancestry, add your Charisma modifier to that damage.” It was widely interpreted to deal bonus damage on subsequent damage rolls of a single casting of an ongoing spell. Apparently wasn’t intended and was errata’d
Sorcerer: draconic bloodline feature elemental affinity erratad. “Starting at 6th level, when you cast a spell that deals damage of the type associated with your draconic ancestry, you can add your Charisma modifier to one damage roll of that spell.” now limited to bonus damage to a single damage roll regardless of how many rolls may be possible from the same spell. The errata clarified this intent by adding additional information, instead of letting people continue to argue over how the “tense” of the language describing the actions use somehow limited the feature.
All that being said, if a feature says you “can” do something, and the other features requirements are satisfied, then you can make use of that feature any number of times unless a limit is placed on it.
Fighters extra attack feature: “EXTRA ATTACK Beginning at 5th level, you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn. The number of attacks increases to three when you reach 1 1th level in this class and to four when you reach 20th level in this class.”. this feature augments your attack action by saying you “can” make additional attacks, and places a limitation on the maximum amount of attacks you “can” shooed to make. You are free to make the choice to attack less than your maximum number of times at any time, but never go over the cap given by the feature.
psychic blade info. “Whenever you take the Attack action, you can manifest a psychic blade from your free hand and make the attack with that blade.” Let’s highlight requirements that need to be satisfied IF it is possible to manifest a blade multiple times. • hand is required to be “free” or empty. • you need to take the attack action • you take the attack action with empty hands, and you now manifest a blade for an attack because the feature says you can. • the attack you make from attack roll to a possible damage roll is resolved • immediately after the attack with the psychic blade is resolved the psychic blade disappears, leaving your hand empty again. This at least partially makes the feature available to be used again with the same action • your player characters is multiclass And has access to the extra attack feature.
big question that I can’t find clear information on myself, and will be deeply appreciative if anyone has any reference or ruling:
does your “take the attack action” end after the initial attack if you’re still taking the action? My guess is no since even from a design and balance standpoint, they limited the rogue base class sneak attack feature to once per turn on to reduce damage output from the base class and also for multiclass combinations.
there’s also the weird interaction that may potentially let a creature with a natural weapon make use of a blade with both hands empty even is the extra attack option is for some reason limited with psychic blades. Creature takes attack action, makes an attack with a natural weapon like a set of horns, your hands are still empty so you still “can” manifest the blades. The feature doesn’t require the blade to be the first attack.
The editing of player class features, to my frustration, always seem different and wordy in new books. It’s like they refuse to learn from the wording mistakes they’ve made, even when taking into account similar features that have already been cleaned up by sage advice and erratas. Poorly worded reactions really rub me the wrong way.
You say that a feature that says you "can" do something can be used any number of times, unless a limit is placed. Fighter's Extra Attack says you "can" attack twice when you take the Attack action. So by your logic, a Fighter should be able to attack any number of times on their turn, by using the Extra Attack feature as many times as they want. The only limit mentioned is "on your turn", and the only requirement is taking the Attack action. Of course that's wrong, and you explain that by saying the number stated is also the "maximum" number of attacks they can make. But that's not stated in the description. Similarly with Psychic Blades... it says you "can" do it, but it also refers to "the" attack (singular), so if you can use that multiple times, you should be able to use Extra Attack multiple times. Or if Extra Attack is limited to "once", because it states a number of attacks which you assume to be a "maximum", then Psychic Blades also states a number of attacks (one, by using the singular article "the"), which must also, then be assumed to be a "maximum".
Natural weapons shouldn't impact the use of Psychic Blades in any way, other than potentially leaving your hands free even if attacking (as with horns, but the same would apply for Unarmed Strikes). How Extra Attack interacts with Psychic Blades, though isn't 100% clear. That is, the language used only allows a single attack (again, due to the singular article "the"), but the intent might be that a blade can be manifested for every attack in the Attack action, especially since a way to manifest a blade for a bonus action attack was explicitly introduced (since Two-Weapon Fighting doesn't work with Psychic Blades).
OK, so I am stretching here. Can a rogue attack with a short sword and psychic blade (1d6) ? Can he eventually use shortsword, first psychic blade and then second psychic blade ? Since he has a free hand. And if yes, could the shortsword be replaced by a Rapier ?
"After you attack with the blade, you can make a melee or ranged weapon attack with a second psychic blade as a bonus action on the same turn, provided your other hand is free to create it." The prerequisite for manifesting and attacking with a blade using your Bonus Action is that you manifested and attacked with one during the Attack action.
I don’t know if I explained myself incorrectly or not, but the first paragraph you posted doesn’t seem to line up with what I’m pretty sure I explained properly. You seem to have diminished quite a bit of my post to a single sentence that you’re defining as my logic.
The post was about highlighting different key words, phrases, and choices that WOTC makes with their editing that sometimes contradict their intent and prior history of rulings.
the post was also about bringing the wording of various features together in a single post for context.
My proposal is basically that though WOTC advertises the rule system as “exclusion” based, their attention to detail when describing features using key words isnt quite standardized enough when describing different features with the same triggers with different intent, which leads to these conversations and debates.
as for your second paragraph, the “the” reference may very well be singular because you can only manifest one blade at a time. And even if a feature gives you additional attacks with the same action, those attacks aren’t done at the same time. An attack usually has to be resolved before another one takes place.
would be so cool if there was clarification. I am definitely in the boat of wanting it to be usable with extra attack. I just love the idea of a psi warrior soul knife multiclass so much.
I think the way this would work is that the Attack action (with the psychic blade), would then allow you to do two things:
1. Use the extra attack
2. As a bonus action, make a second psychic blade attack (offhand).
The trick is how to make the extra attack when you have nothing in your hand as it cannot be by using another psychic blade (as the only way you get a second is via the bonus action). The best I can come up with is if you had Thrown Weapon Fighting (for example), that allows you to draw the weapon type and attack as a single action, in this case as an extra attack.
Unfortunately you are then of course reliant on physical ammo again (unless you had some sort of magical returning weapon, or were in melee and had an equivalent quick draw feature).
If the soulknife rogue has a rapier in one hand, can he summon and use a psychic blade in his free hand?
If the above action is possible, one hand is free after the attack. Studying the wording of the rule text, it won't be possible to use a bonus action to use a second psychic blade, because the wording states "other hand", and the other hand is holding a rapier.
You might have something else in mind for your bonus action.
Can you do something else with your rapier e.g. an attack of opportunity?
If the soulknife rogue has a rapier in one hand, can he summon and use a psychic blade in his free hand?
If the above action is possible, one hand is free after the attack. Studying the wording of the rule text, it won't be possible to use a bonus action to use a second psychic blade, because the wording states "other hand", and the other hand is holding a rapier.
You might have something else in mind for your bonus action.
Can you do something else with your rapier e.g. an attack of opportunity?
The action economy issue is solvable, just really stupid:
Enter combat wielding a rapier and a free hand.
On turn, drop rapier, attack with 2 soulknives, pick up rapier.
Off turn, you have a rapier for OAs.
It's just maddening that the subclass has to do something that looks so silly to an outside observer to do something as simple as have access to Finesse OAs like a normal rogue with a pair of daggers has access to, since the fluff of the subclass is allegedly all about how sneaky it is to have a weapon that doesn't exist until you need it to. Since the psychic knives already have the extreme nerf of having no access to being enchanted in any way, there's no obvious balance reason to ban them from also being allowed to come into existence for an OA.
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So one of my friends want's to play the new soulknife archetype that's being play tested.
The biggest problem we are running into is dual wielding the psychic knives.
It say's
"After you attack with the blade, you can make a melee or ranged weapon attack with a second psychic blade as a bonus action on the same turn, provided your other hand is free to create it. The damage die of this bonus attack is 1d4, instead of 1d6."
Does this attack add the modifier, or does it deny it as per two-weapon fighting rules?
Is this just a bonus action given by the class, or is this an alteration to the already existing dual wield bonus attack?
It adds it because this doesn't use two-weapon fighting rules, it's a class specific ability. It's a bonus action rider on the first psychic blade attack, for example you can't use it when attacking with a non-psychic blade attack.
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OK, so I am stretching here. Can a rogue attack with a short sword and psychic blade (1d6) ? Can he eventually use shortsword, first psychic blade and then second psychic blade ? Since he has a free hand. And if yes, could the shortsword be replaced by a Rapier ?
While the feature closely resembles two weapon fighting mechanics, there are some differences. The most important one being that when the feature goes into detail describing the psychic blade as a weapon, it does not have the light property. The psychic blades are incompatible with two weapon fighting since they lack that light property.
I believe this means the psychic blades can’t be used with other weapons on the same turn, unless a feature like action surge, extra attack, or the duel wielder feat are available. The dual wielder feat would be a waste since when the psychic blade disappears your no longer dual wielding, and lose your AC bonus. The stowing and unsheathing of multiple weapons part would also be a total waste.
Thanks....that's what we taught too... What I basically wanted to do, was use my shortsword and the first psychic blade (1d6). But as I kept reading....I new I was DOOMED !!!! But it would be nice if the damage of the psychic blade would increase as we level Ex.: d8-d10, etc, which I don't think it does.
You are correct in that the psychic blade weapon damage doesn’t scale, but there are a few ways to increase it a bit.
• since the physics blades manifest and immediately disappear, you can make use it with the dueling fighting style to add a +2 to damage on the blades. This works for the 1d6 and 1d4 blade, so long as your not wielding another weapon. This stacks with the stat modifier damage, similar to how dueling can stack with the polearm master feat if you choose to use a spear or quarterstaff.
• the intent and the raw is a little unclear until some clarification is released but if your table comes to the conclusion that the psychic blades can manifest on each attack when using multiclass rules, it may be worth it damage wise to get to level 5 in another martial class. Especially with the dueling fighting style being an option. Psi warrior and fey wanderer are mechanically and thematically appropriate.
Don't want to be a nuisance, but I don't see the +2 damage in the Duel weilding feat. Here is what I read:
You master fighting with two weapons, gaining the following benefits:
Am I missing something ?
Dueling Fighting Style, not Dual Wielder Feat. =)
Regarding using it as the bonus attack from Two-Weapon Fighting, you can't. Psychic Blades says that when you take the Attack action, you can manifest the blade and make the attack with it, meaning the attack you get from the Attack action. It does not say you can manifest a blade and use it for whatever purposes you want, so it won't stay in your hand while you perform an attack with another weapon. It only manifests if/when you're using it as part of the Attack action.
You could do it the other way around, though: attack with the Psychic Blade using your Attack action, then with a short sword using your bonus action from Two-Weapon Fighting, but you'd need the Dual Wielder Feat, since Psychic Blades aren't light.
A multiclassed Soulknife with access to Extra Attack could use a Psychic Blade as one of their primary attacks (i.e. the attacks from the Attack action, boosted by Extra Attack), but only one, since the rules for Psychic Blades only mention manifesting one blade as part of the Attack action. Arguably, it would have to be the first attack, given the timing indicated by the rules ("manifest a psychic blade [...] and make the attack").
Finally, although not part of the original question, do bear in mind Psychic Blades cannot be used for Opportunity Attacks, since you can only manifest them as part of the Attack action, or as a bonus action after having used the Attack action to attack with a Psychic Blade. There is no proviso for manifesting a Psychic Blade as part of a Reaction, or as part of an attack in generic circumstances.
Thank you all...very usefull !
As a note: the Psychic Blade's "damage scaling" is generally supposed to come from the rogue's Sneak Attack feature. Much like base weapons, all the Soulknife's damage comes from Sneak Attack, not its actual weapon hits. The knife is just a carrier for your sneak damage that people can't take away from you.
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Yes I understand, but being knew to 5e I question,, don't magic weapons (ex.: shortsword +2) make psychic blade pointless eventually ?
Not necessarily. You can never be disarmed of your psychic blades - so long as your brain is intact, you've got those blades. Psychic damage is a powerful damage type. And also the psychic blades are the entire lifeblood of the Soulknife and a requirement for most of their cool subclass features. If one is not interested in using their psychic knives, I have to question why one would play the Soulknife in the first place.
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Also, you can throw them w/o losing your magic weapons. One problem with magic daggers is you can really only use 'em for melee; once you throw one, it's gone until you go fetch it... which is unlikely to be easy to do mid-combat, if you're throwing them.
the point about being unable to summon a second psychic blade with your attack action is the part I was talking about when table agreement pops up.
there are several features in the game that utilize very similar wording but are treated differently in regard to ruling clarifications and errata’d that sometimes follow.
psychic blade info.
“Whenever you take the Attack action, you can manifest a psychic blade from your free hand and make the attack with that blade.”
Now, like I said there are several features that have been rules in either direction with the similar language, some with errata and others not.
The usual key words that people seem to gravitate towards and understand easily at first glance are missing. Some examples include “once per turn”, “once on your turn”, “once per round”, “one target...”, and “one roll”.
When we look at features that augment actions there is more context provided as examples of language used, but that’s inconsistent with some rulings.
Ranger gloomstalkers dread ambusher augments an action by “If you take the Attack action on that turn, you can make one additional weapon attack as part of that action.” this feature describes the additional attack given by type and limits to 1 per action.
scorcerer:draconic bloodline feature old.
“Starting at 6th level, when you cast a spell that deals damage of the type associated with your draconic ancestry, add your Charisma modifier to that damage.”
It was widely interpreted to deal bonus damage on subsequent damage rolls of a single casting of an ongoing spell. Apparently wasn’t intended and was errata’d
Sorcerer: draconic bloodline feature elemental affinity erratad.
“Starting at 6th level, when you cast a spell that deals damage of the type associated with your draconic ancestry, you can add your Charisma modifier to one damage roll of that spell.”
now limited to bonus damage to a single damage roll regardless of how many rolls may be possible from the same spell. The errata clarified this intent by adding additional information, instead of letting people continue to argue over how the “tense” of the language describing the actions use somehow limited the feature.
All that being said, if a feature says you “can” do something, and the other features requirements are satisfied, then you can make use of that feature any number of times unless a limit is placed on it.
Fighters extra attack feature:
“EXTRA ATTACK
Beginning at 5th level, you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.
The number of attacks increases to three when you reach 1 1th level in this class and to four when you reach 20th level in this class.”.
this feature augments your attack action by saying you “can” make additional attacks, and places a limitation on the maximum amount of attacks you “can” shooed to make. You are free to make the choice to attack less than your maximum number of times at any time, but never go over the cap given by the feature.
psychic blade info.
“Whenever you take the Attack action, you can manifest a psychic blade from your free hand and make the attack with that blade.”
Let’s highlight requirements that need to be satisfied IF it is possible to manifest a blade multiple times.
• hand is required to be “free” or empty.
• you need to take the attack action
• you take the attack action with empty hands, and you now manifest a blade for an attack because the feature says you can.
• the attack you make from attack roll to a possible damage roll is resolved
• immediately after the attack with the psychic blade is resolved the psychic blade disappears, leaving your hand empty again. This at least partially makes the feature available to be used again with the same action
• your player characters is multiclass And has access to the extra attack feature.
big question that I can’t find clear information on myself, and will be deeply appreciative if anyone has any reference or ruling:
does your “take the attack action” end after the initial attack if you’re still taking the action? My guess is no since even from a design and balance standpoint, they limited the rogue base class sneak attack feature to once per turn on to reduce damage output from the base class and also for multiclass combinations.
there’s also the weird interaction that may potentially let a creature with a natural weapon make use of a blade with both hands empty even is the extra attack option is for some reason limited with psychic blades. Creature takes attack action, makes an attack with a natural weapon like a set of horns, your hands are still empty so you still “can” manifest the blades. The feature doesn’t require the blade to be the first attack.
maybe a good feature to compare context wise would be the “rapid strike” feature from the samarai. “If you take the attack action and have advantage on an attack roll against one of the targets, you can forgo advantage for that roll to make an additional weapon attack against that target, as part of the same action. You can do so no more than once per turn”.
this feature has the same wording in regard to “take the attack action” and the feature seems to apply to the entire attack action.
The editing of player class features, to my frustration, always seem different and wordy in new books. It’s like they refuse to learn from the wording mistakes they’ve made, even when taking into account similar features that have already been cleaned up by sage advice and erratas. Poorly worded reactions really rub me the wrong way.
You say that a feature that says you "can" do something can be used any number of times, unless a limit is placed. Fighter's Extra Attack says you "can" attack twice when you take the Attack action. So by your logic, a Fighter should be able to attack any number of times on their turn, by using the Extra Attack feature as many times as they want. The only limit mentioned is "on your turn", and the only requirement is taking the Attack action. Of course that's wrong, and you explain that by saying the number stated is also the "maximum" number of attacks they can make. But that's not stated in the description. Similarly with Psychic Blades... it says you "can" do it, but it also refers to "the" attack (singular), so if you can use that multiple times, you should be able to use Extra Attack multiple times. Or if Extra Attack is limited to "once", because it states a number of attacks which you assume to be a "maximum", then Psychic Blades also states a number of attacks (one, by using the singular article "the"), which must also, then be assumed to be a "maximum".
Natural weapons shouldn't impact the use of Psychic Blades in any way, other than potentially leaving your hands free even if attacking (as with horns, but the same would apply for Unarmed Strikes). How Extra Attack interacts with Psychic Blades, though isn't 100% clear. That is, the language used only allows a single attack (again, due to the singular article "the"), but the intent might be that a blade can be manifested for every attack in the Attack action, especially since a way to manifest a blade for a bonus action attack was explicitly introduced (since Two-Weapon Fighting doesn't work with Psychic Blades).
"After you attack with the blade, you can make a melee or ranged weapon attack with a second psychic blade as a bonus action on the same turn, provided your other hand is free to create it." The prerequisite for manifesting and attacking with a blade using your Bonus Action is that you manifested and attacked with one during the Attack action.
I don’t know if I explained myself incorrectly or not, but the first paragraph you posted doesn’t seem to line up with what I’m pretty sure I explained properly. You seem to have diminished quite a bit of my post to a single sentence that you’re defining as my logic.
The post was about highlighting different key words, phrases, and choices that WOTC makes with their editing that sometimes contradict their intent and prior history of rulings.
the post was also about bringing the wording of various features together in a single post for context.
My proposal is basically that though WOTC advertises the rule system as “exclusion” based, their attention to detail when describing features using key words isnt quite standardized enough when describing different features with the same triggers with different intent, which leads to these conversations and debates.
as for your second paragraph, the “the” reference may very well be singular because you can only manifest one blade at a time. And even if a feature gives you additional attacks with the same action, those attacks aren’t done at the same time. An attack usually has to be resolved before another one takes place.
would be so cool if there was clarification. I am definitely in the boat of wanting it to be usable with extra attack. I just love the idea of a psi warrior soul knife multiclass so much.
I think the way this would work is that the Attack action (with the psychic blade), would then allow you to do two things:
1. Use the extra attack
2. As a bonus action, make a second psychic blade attack (offhand).
The trick is how to make the extra attack when you have nothing in your hand as it cannot be by using another psychic blade (as the only way you get a second is via the bonus action). The best I can come up with is if you had Thrown Weapon Fighting (for example), that allows you to draw the weapon type and attack as a single action, in this case as an extra attack.
Unfortunately you are then of course reliant on physical ammo again (unless you had some sort of magical returning weapon, or were in melee and had an equivalent quick draw feature).
If the soulknife rogue has a rapier in one hand, can he summon and use a psychic blade in his free hand?
If the above action is possible, one hand is free after the attack. Studying the wording of the rule text, it won't be possible to use a bonus action to use a second psychic blade, because the wording states "other hand", and the other hand is holding a rapier.
You might have something else in mind for your bonus action.
Can you do something else with your rapier e.g. an attack of opportunity?
The action economy issue is solvable, just really stupid:
It's just maddening that the subclass has to do something that looks so silly to an outside observer to do something as simple as have access to Finesse OAs like a normal rogue with a pair of daggers has access to, since the fluff of the subclass is allegedly all about how sneaky it is to have a weapon that doesn't exist until you need it to. Since the psychic knives already have the extreme nerf of having no access to being enchanted in any way, there's no obvious balance reason to ban them from also being allowed to come into existence for an OA.