So when you cast Contagion the target must make a Constitution saving throw or take 11d8 Necrotic damage and be Poisoned.
The next paragraph says the target must repeat the saving throw at the end of each of their turns until they get 3 successes or failures. If they fail 3 times, the spell lasts for 7 days.
Here's my question: What if they initial saving throw is successful? Do they still need to repeat the saving throw? What happens if they fail? Do they take the damage every time? Do they take 11d8 Necrotic damage at the end of each of their turns for 7 days if they fail 3 times?
Or is the spell over if they make the initial saving throw?
[...] So my question is: Does nothing happen at all if you succeed the initial saving throw, or is the second part still taking place?
The way I read it:
The target succeeds on a first Constitution saving throw: end of story.
The target fails that first Constitution saving throw: Necrotic damage, Poisoned condition, Disadvantage on saving throws made with the chosen ability, and the target must repeat the saving throw at the end of each of its turns until it gets three successes or failures.
The effect says "The target must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or take 11d8 Necrotic damage and have the Poisoned condition. Also, choose one ability when you cast the spell. While Poisoned, the target has Disadvantage on saving throws made with the chosen ability." The underlined portion sets the parameters for what keeps the effect on saving throws in force- no Poisoned condition, no effect on saving throws.
There seems to be nothing making any of the other effects of contagion contingent on failing the initial save. (other than the obvious ramification that unless/until poisoned another way, the target doesn't have disadvantage on the saves)
1. Con save 2a.Initial Success:Nothing at all, spell over, slot wasted 2b.Fail 1:Necrotic Damage & Poisoned condition 2ba.:3 successes after fail 1:Poisoned condition over 2bb.:3 more fails after fail 1:Poisoned condition lasts 7 days.
Like others I think the only thing that continues is the poisoned condition and disadvantage on a save, not the 11d8 damage. And the save system is basically as others say. Make initial save, nothing happens. Fail first save damage and poisoned condition. 3 saves its over, 3 fails you are poisoned for 7 days. My only potential disagreement with others may be that you have to make 3 saves, but after the initial fail I can see a reading where only need 2 more failures as that would be your 3rd fail.
My only additional comment is this is one of the many spells that fit the warlock better than the classes that get it. But they massively screwed up their spell list in 2014 and may have made it worse in 2024.
Honestly, I wouldn't take it as a Warlock- the save or suck against what is commonly a strong monster save doesn't play well with limited spell slots, imo.
The first part is conditional and has no save. While Poisoned:
They have Disadvantage on the chosen save.
Attempting to remove Poisoned from them only succeeds if they make a Constitution saving throw.
Note that this is any Poisoned, not just the Poisoned from this spell. So if your Rogue hits them with Cunning Strike:Poison, they'll be suffering these effects regardless of what else the spell does.
The second part occurs on that turn and every subsequent turn until the spell ends. They roll a save. If they fail the save, they receive 11d8 Necrotic damage and the Poisoned condition.
The entire spell (both parts) ends after three successful saves. If they fail three saves instead, the first part will last for the next 7 days but they no longer need to roll saves.
Note that if the target is immune to Poisoned, the first part won't do anything so they're just rolling saves every turn to see if they take 11d8 Necrotic and they can't take this damage more than three times (less if they succeed at the save three times before they fail at it three times).
Poison Resistance does nothing since the 11d8 isn't Poison damage.
The minimum number of saves the target can ever make is three (three successes or three failures). The most saves they need to make is five (three success or failures with two of the opposite result also occurring). The most damage they can take is 11d8 * 3. The least they can take is nothing.
Pretty sure the damage and poison don't proc on subsequent saves, and failing the first save doesn't count towards the tally for making the effect stick
[...] Note that this is any Poisoned, not just the Poisoned from this spell. So if your Rogue hits them with Cunning Strike:Poison, they'll be suffering these effects regardless of what else the spell does.
In general, I don't agree with your interpretation of this spell. But regarding this sentence, I'm not sure I understand you clearly.
In any case, I'd like to add here how Conditions should be understood, using some examples from other people:
[...] Enchantment spells use the same language. "While charmed, the target..."
If I cast Hypnotic Pattern and the target succeeds on the saving throw, does the spell last for a minute?
You create a twisting pattern of colors in a 30-foot Cube within range. The pattern appears for a moment and vanishes. Each creature in the area who can see the pattern must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or have the Charmed condition for the duration. While Charmed, the creature has the Incapacitated condition and a Speed of 0.
If someone else (both spells have concentration requirements) casts Friends on the same creature, does the target become incapacitated with a speed of 0 while charmed with from the Hypnotic Pattern? Can other casters spam the Friends Cantrip to make the Hypnotic Pattern save irrelevant? No, of course not. [...]
I think this whole line of thought in this thread, and especially playing devil's advocate, falls outside of "Rules Rely on Good-Faith Interpretation." It is not because modify memory has the words "while charmed in this way" that its effect is limited to its own charm effect, and it is not the case that all the other spells that don't have this language work differently. Again, the effect of hypnotic pattern does not extend to creatures charmed by other means.
What we've determined with all of the examples is that Contagion does not use particularly novel or complicated language. Yes, you can find examples that use more precise language, but there are plenty that are written like contagion. That means that whatever you rule for it applies to all the other spells with similar language. Again, interpreting those in good faith means also interpreting contagion the same way: that spells that apply conditions and rely on those conditions rely on their own versions of them.
By the way it is true that if the spell ends (all creatures save), then it ends, so a hypnotic pattern that no creatures are affected by is over.
Let's take a look at a similar spell: the new version of weird, which has a duration of 1 minute
You try to create illusory terrors in others’ minds. Each creature of your choice in a 30-foot-radius Sphere centered on a point within range makes a Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, a target takes 10d10 Psychic damage and has the Frightened condition for the duration. On a successful save, a target takes half as much damage only.
A Frightened target makes a Wisdom saving throw at the end of each of its turns. On a failed save, it takes 5d10 Psychic damage. On a successful save, the spell ends on that target.
Are you devil's advocates seriously suggesting that if you succeed on the initial save, but get Frightened by another source before the 1 minute duration is up, you have to start making Wisdom saves again?
The spell has three effects that apply as long as the effect applies:
“Your touch inflicts a magical contagion.”
“Also, choose one ability when you cast the spell. While Poisoned, the target has Disadvantage on saving throws made with the chosen ability.”
“Whenever the Poisoned target receives an effect that would end the Poisoned condition, the target must succeed on a Constitution saving throw, or the Poisoned condition doesn’t end on it.”
None of these effects have a save. We know this because there is no text indicating a save of any sort or any consequences for success/failure. These effects merely apply as long as the spell applies. Poisoned is simply a condition on the target, regardless of what else the spell does - if they have the Poisoned condition (from any source), those effects apply.
The save portion of the spell:
“The target must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or take 11d8 Necrotic damage and have the Poisoned condition.”
“The target must repeat the saving throw at the end of each of its turns until it gets three successes or failures. If the target succeeds on three of these saves, the spell ends on the target. If the target fails three of the saves, the spell lasts for 7 days on it.”
Here, we have the portions of the spell that can be saved against. We know this because they instruct you to roll a save and tell you what the consequences are. This is where the conditions for ending the overall effect are included as well.
In terms of your examples, they're all examples of people inventing rules that appear nowhere in the text rather than just using RAW.
The spell has three effects that apply as long as the effect applies:
“Your touch inflicts a magical contagion.”
“Also, choose one ability when you cast the spell. While Poisoned, the target has Disadvantage on saving throws made with the chosen ability.”
“Whenever the Poisoned target receives an effect that would end the Poisoned condition, the target must succeed on a Constitution saving throw, or the Poisoned condition doesn’t end on it.”
The first one isn't an effect, it's flavor text
The second one immediately follows "The target must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or take 11d8 Necrotic damage and have the Poisoned condition." Thinking the one Poisoned condition is completely separate from the other makes no sense. Context matters
The third one is at least a separate paragraph, but again, this is all part of the same spell. It's far more logical to think that the only Poisoned condition that you'd need to succeed on a saving throw to get rid of is the one imposed by contagion itself, not a passing bullywug warrior
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
[...] In terms of your examples, they're all examples of people inventing rules that appear nowhere in the text rather than just using RAW.
The rules: an effect is what imposes a condition on you (in your example, the Contagion spell and the Cunning Strike feature). So the condition is linked to the spell effect or the feature.
Conditions Many effects impose a condition, a temporary state that alters the recipient’s capabilities. [...]
Each condition (Poisoned by Contagion, Poisoned by Cunning Strike) lasts for the duration specified by the effect that imposed it. They're tracked independently because the sources (that is, the effects that caused them) are different.
Duration A condition lasts either for a duration specified by the effect that imposed the condition or until the condition is countered (the Prone condition is countered by standing up, for example).
Finally, conditions don't stack, but:
Conditions Don’t Stack If multiple effects impose the same condition on you, each instance of the condition has its own duration, but the condition’s effects don’t get worse.
Let me reiterate: "While Poisoned, the target has Disadvantage on saving throws made with the chosen ability."
That's it. That's the rules right there. All it cares about is if the target currently has the condition Poisoned. It doesn't care about where it came from. It doesn't care about how long it lasts. Just whether the condition exists at any given moment.
Trying to invent some sort vague 'context' or a weird tracking system that doesn't exist within the rules is just a way of avoiding the plain text of the rules.
Bear in mind that if the rules were supposed to work the way you're claiming, they wouldn't have written "While Poisoned" at all. They just would have written "While under this effect".
I don't think Contagion is meant to have any effect when saving throw succeed.
Also [...] is additional effect following the initial saving throw that does not succeed, not an effect occuring regardless of it, otherwise it would have been stated first before the saving throw.
At least that's how i'll run it until further clarification.
Where does Contagion say it ends if you make the first saving throw? Because it does explicitly say that the effect doesn't end until after three successes (or three failures and a week).
I think people need to delete 2014 Contagion from their memory and then read 2024 Contagion. If you go through it line-by-line, you'll see it's a very different spell and trying to force a 2014 Contagion interpretation onto 2024 Contagion doesn't make sense.
Honestly, I wouldn't take it as a Warlock- the save or suck against what is commonly a strong monster save doesn't play well with limited spell slots, imo.
Whether its a good spell is a different argument from whether its thematically on point for them more than any other class in the game.
[...] Note that this is any Poisoned, not just the Poisoned from this spell. So if your Rogue hits them with Cunning Strike:Poison, they'll be suffering these effects regardless of what else the spell does.
In general, I don't agree with your interpretation of this spell. But regarding this sentence, I'm not sure I understand you clearly.
In any case, I'd like to add here how Conditions should be understood, using some examples from other people:
[...] Enchantment spells use the same language. "While charmed, the target..."
If I cast Hypnotic Pattern and the target succeeds on the saving throw, does the spell last for a minute?
You create a twisting pattern of colors in a 30-foot Cube within range. The pattern appears for a moment and vanishes. Each creature in the area who can see the pattern must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or have the Charmed condition for the duration. While Charmed, the creature has the Incapacitated condition and a Speed of 0.
If someone else (both spells have concentration requirements) casts Friends on the same creature, does the target become incapacitated with a speed of 0 while charmed with from the Hypnotic Pattern? Can other casters spam the Friends Cantrip to make the Hypnotic Pattern save irrelevant? No, of course not. [...]
I think this whole line of thought in this thread, and especially playing devil's advocate, falls outside of "Rules Rely on Good-Faith Interpretation." It is not because modify memory has the words "while charmed in this way" that its effect is limited to its own charm effect, and it is not the case that all the other spells that don't have this language work differently. Again, the effect of hypnotic pattern does not extend to creatures charmed by other means.
What we've determined with all of the examples is that Contagion does not use particularly novel or complicated language. Yes, you can find examples that use more precise language, but there are plenty that are written like contagion. That means that whatever you rule for it applies to all the other spells with similar language. Again, interpreting those in good faith means also interpreting contagion the same way: that spells that apply conditions and rely on those conditions rely on their own versions of them.
By the way it is true that if the spell ends (all creatures save), then it ends, so a hypnotic pattern that no creatures are affected by is over.
Let's take a look at a similar spell: the new version of weird, which has a duration of 1 minute
You try to create illusory terrors in others’ minds. Each creature of your choice in a 30-foot-radius Sphere centered on a point within range makes a Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, a target takes 10d10 Psychic damage and has the Frightened condition for the duration. On a successful save, a target takes half as much damage only.
A Frightened target makes a Wisdom saving throw at the end of each of its turns. On a failed save, it takes 5d10 Psychic damage. On a successful save, the spell ends on that target.
Are you devil's advocates seriously suggesting that if you succeed on the initial save, but get Frightened by another source before the 1 minute duration is up, you have to start making Wisdom saves again?
IMO, it doesn't matter that my view leads to strange outcomes, as it is the only valid way to read the text. Here's my example:
If a creature is holding or wearing the object and takes the damage from it, the creature must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or drop the object if it can. If it doesn’t drop the object, it has Disadvantage on attack rolls and ability checks until the start of your next turn.
I don't think it makes sense to say that the disadvantage is conditional on failing the save. (heat metal)
[...] Bear in mind that if the rules were supposed to work the way you're claiming, they wouldn't have written "While Poisoned" at all. They just would have written "While under this effect".
IMO, While Poisoned... due to the spell's effect. It doesn’t need to be explicitly stated, as far as I understand how spells and Conditions work.
So when you cast Contagion the target must make a Constitution saving throw or take 11d8 Necrotic damage and be Poisoned.
The next paragraph says the target must repeat the saving throw at the end of each of their turns until they get 3 successes or failures. If they fail 3 times, the spell lasts for 7 days.
Here's my question: What if they initial saving throw is successful? Do they still need to repeat the saving throw? What happens if they fail? Do they take the damage every time? Do they take 11d8 Necrotic damage at the end of each of their turns for 7 days if they fail 3 times?
Or is the spell over if they make the initial saving throw?
This topic was also discussed in What happens on a succesful save against Contagion? This is my opinion:
I agree with TarodNet.
Initial save for damage and poisoned condition or no effect at all.
If poisoned by Contagion, 3 saves to end or 3 fails for being poisoned for 7 days.
The effect says "The target must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or take 11d8 Necrotic damage and have the Poisoned condition. Also, choose one ability when you cast the spell. While Poisoned, the target has Disadvantage on saving throws made with the chosen ability." The underlined portion sets the parameters for what keeps the effect on saving throws in force- no Poisoned condition, no effect on saving throws.
There seems to be nothing making any of the other effects of contagion contingent on failing the initial save. (other than the obvious ramification that unless/until poisoned another way, the target doesn't have disadvantage on the saves)
The spell goes in this order:
1. Con save
2a.Initial Success:Nothing at all, spell over, slot wasted
2b.Fail 1:Necrotic Damage & Poisoned condition
2ba.:3 successes after fail 1:Poisoned condition over
2bb.:3 more fails after fail 1:Poisoned condition lasts 7 days.
Also, The real Treantmonk. This is interesting...
DM, player & homebrewer(Current homebrew project is an unofficial conversion of SBURB/SGRUB from Homestuck into DND 5e)
Once made Maxwell's Silver Hammer come down upon Strahd's head to make sure he was dead.
Always study & sharpen philosophical razors. They save a lot of trouble.
Like others I think the only thing that continues is the poisoned condition and disadvantage on a save, not the 11d8 damage. And the save system is basically as others say. Make initial save, nothing happens. Fail first save damage and poisoned condition. 3 saves its over, 3 fails you are poisoned for 7 days. My only potential disagreement with others may be that you have to make 3 saves, but after the initial fail I can see a reading where only need 2 more failures as that would be your 3rd fail.
My only additional comment is this is one of the many spells that fit the warlock better than the classes that get it. But they massively screwed up their spell list in 2014 and may have made it worse in 2024.
Honestly, I wouldn't take it as a Warlock- the save or suck against what is commonly a strong monster save doesn't play well with limited spell slots, imo.
There are two parts to the spell.
The first part is conditional and has no save. While Poisoned:
Note that this is any Poisoned, not just the Poisoned from this spell. So if your Rogue hits them with Cunning Strike:Poison, they'll be suffering these effects regardless of what else the spell does.
The second part occurs on that turn and every subsequent turn until the spell ends. They roll a save. If they fail the save, they receive 11d8 Necrotic damage and the Poisoned condition.
The entire spell (both parts) ends after three successful saves. If they fail three saves instead, the first part will last for the next 7 days but they no longer need to roll saves.
Note that if the target is immune to Poisoned, the first part won't do anything so they're just rolling saves every turn to see if they take 11d8 Necrotic and they can't take this damage more than three times (less if they succeed at the save three times before they fail at it three times).
Poison Resistance does nothing since the 11d8 isn't Poison damage.
The minimum number of saves the target can ever make is three (three successes or three failures). The most saves they need to make is five (three success or failures with two of the opposite result also occurring). The most damage they can take is 11d8 * 3. The least they can take is nothing.
Pretty sure the damage and poison don't proc on subsequent saves, and failing the first save doesn't count towards the tally for making the effect stick
In general, I don't agree with your interpretation of this spell. But regarding this sentence, I'm not sure I understand you clearly.
In any case, I'd like to add here how Conditions should be understood, using some examples from other people:
Also related: Scarecrow 2024
The spell has three effects that apply as long as the effect applies:
None of these effects have a save. We know this because there is no text indicating a save of any sort or any consequences for success/failure. These effects merely apply as long as the spell applies. Poisoned is simply a condition on the target, regardless of what else the spell does - if they have the Poisoned condition (from any source), those effects apply.
The save portion of the spell:
Here, we have the portions of the spell that can be saved against. We know this because they instruct you to roll a save and tell you what the consequences are. This is where the conditions for ending the overall effect are included as well.
In terms of your examples, they're all examples of people inventing rules that appear nowhere in the text rather than just using RAW.
The first one isn't an effect, it's flavor text
The second one immediately follows "The target must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or take 11d8 Necrotic damage and have the Poisoned condition." Thinking the one Poisoned condition is completely separate from the other makes no sense. Context matters
The third one is at least a separate paragraph, but again, this is all part of the same spell. It's far more logical to think that the only Poisoned condition that you'd need to succeed on a saving throw to get rid of is the one imposed by contagion itself, not a passing bullywug warrior
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
The rules: an effect is what imposes a condition on you (in your example, the Contagion spell and the Cunning Strike feature). So the condition is linked to the spell effect or the feature.
Each condition (Poisoned by Contagion, Poisoned by Cunning Strike) lasts for the duration specified by the effect that imposed it. They're tracked independently because the sources (that is, the effects that caused them) are different.
Finally, conditions don't stack, but:
Let me reiterate: "While Poisoned, the target has Disadvantage on saving throws made with the chosen ability."
That's it. That's the rules right there. All it cares about is if the target currently has the condition Poisoned. It doesn't care about where it came from. It doesn't care about how long it lasts. Just whether the condition exists at any given moment.
Trying to invent some sort vague 'context' or a weird tracking system that doesn't exist within the rules is just a way of avoiding the plain text of the rules.
Bear in mind that if the rules were supposed to work the way you're claiming, they wouldn't have written "While Poisoned" at all. They just would have written "While under this effect".
I don't think Contagion is meant to have any effect when saving throw succeed.
Also [...] is additional effect following the initial saving throw that does not succeed, not an effect occuring regardless of it, otherwise it would have been stated first before the saving throw.
At least that's how i'll run it until further clarification.
Where does Contagion say it ends if you make the first saving throw? Because it does explicitly say that the effect doesn't end until after three successes (or three failures and a week).
I think people need to delete 2014 Contagion from their memory and then read 2024 Contagion. If you go through it line-by-line, you'll see it's a very different spell and trying to force a 2014 Contagion interpretation onto 2024 Contagion doesn't make sense.
Whether its a good spell is a different argument from whether its thematically on point for them more than any other class in the game.
IMO, it doesn't matter that my view leads to strange outcomes, as it is the only valid way to read the text. Here's my example:
I don't think it makes sense to say that the disadvantage is conditional on failing the save. (heat metal)
IMO, While Poisoned... due to the spell's effect. It doesn’t need to be explicitly stated, as far as I understand how spells and Conditions work.
Similar wording can be found in other spells, like Ensnaring Strike, Geas, or Hypnotic Pattern.
But I feel like I'm repeating myself and the same arguments from the linked threads, sorry, so I don't have anything more to add.