Conjure Animals (2024) is a confusing spell all around. It has similar effects to Spirit Guardians without any of the emanation wording, and uses vague wording that would suggest that it acts kind of like Spike Growth with the save being triggered for movement into any square within 10 ft of the pack even if you are already within 10 ft. How exactly is this spell supposed to be interpreted here? Does it act as Spirit Guardians where the effect only retriggers upon leaving and then reentering, or is it like Spike Growth where every square within 10 ft of the pack is supposed to trigger the ability to cause damage?
One thing to note first: the reason that Conjure Animals doesn't use the word "emanation" is because an Emanation is centered on a creature or object and moves around when that creature/object moves around. Conjure Animals intentionally does not work that way, so it doesn't use that word.
I think you may have some misconceptions about how the other spells work, so here is how these three spells you've referenced work:
Conjure Animals is a Large (i.e., 2x2 on a 5-foot grid map) area effect that can be moved around by the caster. It forces a creature to make a Dexterity save when any of the following happen:
The caster moves the area such that the creature is within 10 feet of it
The creature moves to a space within 10 feet of it (yes, even if they're already within 10 feet of it)
The creature ends its turn within 10 feet of it
The creature is only subject to this effect the first time one of these things happens on a turn. The creature takes damage only if they fail the save.
Spirit Guardians is a 15-foot Emanation centered on the caster that moves around with the caster. It forces a creature to make a Wisdom save when any of the following happen:
The caster moves such that the creature is in the Emanation
The creature moves such that they are in the Emanation
The creature ends its turn in the Emanation
The creature is only subject to this effect the first time one of these things happens on a turn. The creature takes full damage if they fail the save and half damage if they succeed.
Spike Growth is a 20-foot Sphere that can't move. A creature takes damage from it if any of the following happen:
The creature enters the area, either willingly or forcibly
The creature moves within the area, either willingly or forcibly
The creature takes damage for every five feet it moves in the area, with no per-turn limit. There is no saving throw to resist it, but no damage is dealt if the creature stays in one spot within it.
For Conjure Animals and Spirit Guardians, I'd say the creature also makes the saving throw as soon as the spell is cast and it's within the affected area.
For Conjure Animals and Spirit Guardians, I'd say the creature also makes the saving throw as soon as the spell is cast and it's within the affected area.
EDIT: for clarity.
This is somewhat reasonable, but I do not think that this is the intent for these spells. For comparison, in my opinion the Conjure Animals spell works very similarly to the Moonbeam spell mechanically. However, the Moonbeam spell explicitly includes this language that these other two spells do not:
Moonbeam:
When the Cylinder appears, each creature in it makes a Constitution saving throw . . . A creature also makes this save when . . .
In contrast, the save in Spirit Guardians triggers when one or the other "enters". Likewise, the save in Conjure Animals triggers when one or the other "moves within 10 feet".
Although it's written differently, it's useful to think of Conjure Animals as an emanation that extends 10 feet outwards from a Large "creature", affecting an area similar to how TarodNet drew the affected area of Spirit Guardians around the Large size (but extending outwards 10 feet instead of 15 feet).
I can never remember where this rule is, so I'll have to rely on someone else to quote it, but I believe that it's still the rule (or guideline) in 2024 that if you are playing on a grid that whenever you are adjudicating an AoE which covers only a portion of a particular space then it affects that space if it covers at least half of that space. Using a diagram like the one above but adjusted to extend outwards 10 feet and using the guideline of the effect covering at least half of the space, you end up with an AoE on a grid something like this, which is basically a 6x6 square with the corner spaces excluded:
I just wanted to clarify that the area of effect of Conjure Animals is actually a 30'x30' square rather than a 10'x10' one depicted above.
Here is the text from the spell:
"You conjure nature spirits that appear as a Large pack of spectral, intangible animals in an unoccupied space you can see within range."
The Conjured spirits take up the space of a "large pack" ... i.e. a 10'x10' square or large creature space.
"Whenever the pack moves within 10 feet of a creature you can see and whenever a creature you can see enters a space within 10 feet of the pack or ends its turn there, you can force that creature to make a Dexterity saving throw."
The effect of the spell extends 10' from the "large pack".
If using circles rather than squares then the area is similar to your second spirit guardians area but with a extra radius of 10' from the large pack rather than 15'.
One other aspect of Conjure Animals to keep in mind is that the caster can move it up to 30' on their turn .. any creature the pack is within 10' of during this move are also affected by the spell.
[...] One other aspect of Conjure Animals to keep in mind is that the caster can move it up to 30' on their turn .. any creature the pack is within 10' of during this move are also affected by the spell.
I agree with this. IMO, it's similar to Moonbeam, so it's an effect you move rather than a teleport.
For Conjure Animals and Spirit Guardians, I'd say the creature also makes the saving throw as soon as the spell is cast and it's within the affected area.
EDIT: for clarity.
This is somewhat reasonable, but I do not think that this is the intent for these spells. For comparison, in my opinion the Conjure Animals spell works very similarly to the Moonbeam spell mechanically. However, the Moonbeam spell explicitly includes this language that these other two spells do not:
Moonbeam:
When the Cylinder appears, each creature in it makes a Constitution saving throw . . . A creature also makes this save when . . .
In contrast, the save in Spirit Guardians triggers when one or the other "enters". Likewise, the save in Conjure Animals triggers when one or the other "moves within 10 feet".
I could agree with your explanation for Conjure Animals when cast, although it'd be practically the same outcome if you cast the spell and then move the pack.
But for Spirit Guardians, the new wording in those spells was already discussed in previous threads, and I think the intent is the creatures are affected when you cast the Area of Effect overlapping them. You could also interpret "whenever the Emanation enters a creature’s space" as the Emanation entering that space when you cast the spell.
[...] I can never remember where this rule is, so I'll have to rely on someone else to quote it, but I believe that it's still the rule (or guideline) in 2024 that if you are playing on a grid that whenever you are adjudicating an AoE which covers only a portion of a particular space then it affects that space if it covers at least half of that space. Using a diagram like the one above but adjusted to extend outwards 10 feet and using guideline of the effect covering at least half of the space, you end up with an AoE on a grid something like this, which is basically a 6x6 square with the corner spaces excluded: [...]
Yeah, I only drew the pack, sorry, not the affected area. But I think, for Conjure Animals, the corners are also included because the spell says the affected area is "within 10 feet"
About the rule, I think you're referring to this one:
An area of effect must be translated onto squares or hexes to determine which potential targets are in the area. If the area has a point of origin, choose an intersection of squares or hexes to be the point of origin, then follow its rules as normal. If an area of effect covers at least half a square or hex, the entire square or hex is affected.
@David42, yeah, sorry! I only drew the Large pack, not the affected area.
Something like this, right?
This is a fine approximation based on the standard simplified diagonal counting.
For more precision you could also draw an outer shape with the straight parallel lines opposite the inner shape but from each corner you could draw a quarter-circle. I believe that would cause the corner spaces to become excluded. Such a method would be more closely approximated with the alternate diagonal counting method where every other diagonal costs extra. So, instead of diagonal spaces being 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30 feet away they would be 5, 15, 20, 30, 35, 45 feet away.
I'm not sure if this alternate diagonal counting has actually made it into the 2024 books or not.
For Conjure Animals and Spirit Guardians, I'd say the creature also makes the saving throw as soon as the spell is cast and it's within the affected area.
EDIT: for clarity.
This is somewhat reasonable, but I do not think that this is the intent for these spells. For comparison, in my opinion the Conjure Animals spell works very similarly to the Moonbeam spell mechanically. However, the Moonbeam spell explicitly includes this language that these other two spells do not:
Moonbeam:
When the Cylinder appears, each creature in it makes a Constitution saving throw . . . A creature also makes this save when . . .
In contrast, the save in Spirit Guardians triggers when one or the other "enters". Likewise, the save in Conjure Animals triggers when one or the other "moves within 10 feet".
I could agree with your explanation for Conjure Animals when cast, although it'd be practically the same outcome if you cast the spell and then move the pack.
But for Spirit Guardians, the new wording in those spells was already discussed in previous threads, and I think the intent is the creatures are affected when you cast the Area of Effect overlapping them. You could also interpret "whenever the Emanation enters a creature’s space" as the Emanation entering that space when you cast the spell.
Yeah there's no need to go too far down that rabbit hole in this thread. I was just pointing out, and I think you would agree, that in terms of RAW the Moonbeam spell is much more explicit about the effect triggering the damage immediately when the spell is cast than either of these other two spells. The RAI on these other two spells could go either way depending on implicit interpretation.
@David42, yeah, sorry! I only drew the Large pack, not the affected area.
Something like this, right?
This is a fine approximation based on the standard simplified diagonal counting.
For more precision you could also draw an outer shape with the straight parallel lines opposite the inner shape but from each corner you could draw a quarter-circle. I believe that would cause the corner spaces to become excluded. Such a method would be more closely approximated with the alternate diagonal counting method where every other diagonal costs extra. So, instead of diagonal spaces being 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30 feet away they would be 5, 15, 20, 30, 35, 45 feet away.
I'm not sure if this alternate diagonal counting has actually made it into the 2024 books or not.
For Conjure Animals and Spirit Guardians, I'd say the creature also makes the saving throw as soon as the spell is cast and it's within the affected area.
EDIT: for clarity.
This is somewhat reasonable, but I do not think that this is the intent for these spells. For comparison, in my opinion the Conjure Animals spell works very similarly to the Moonbeam spell mechanically. However, the Moonbeam spell explicitly includes this language that these other two spells do not:
Moonbeam:
When the Cylinder appears, each creature in it makes a Constitution saving throw . . . A creature also makes this save when . . .
In contrast, the save in Spirit Guardians triggers when one or the other "enters". Likewise, the save in Conjure Animals triggers when one or the other "moves within 10 feet".
I could agree with your explanation for Conjure Animals when cast, although it'd be practically the same outcome if you cast the spell and then move the pack.
But for Spirit Guardians, the new wording in those spells was already discussed in previous threads, and I think the intent is the creatures are affected when you cast the Area of Effect overlapping them. You could also interpret "whenever the Emanation enters a creature’s space" as the Emanation entering that space when you cast the spell.
Yeah there's no need to go too far down that rabbit hole in this thread. I was just pointing out, and I think you would agree, that in terms of RAW the Moonbeam spell is much more explicit about the effect triggering the damage immediately when the spell is cast than either of these other two spells. The RAI on these other two spells could go either way depending on implicit interpretation.
I agree, sure, but just to leave a final thought: if we rule it that way, it might make it a bit harder to affect your enemies, especially in the case of Spirit Guardians.
I just wanted to clarify that the area of effect of Conjure Animals is actually a 30'x30' square rather than a 10'x10' one depicted above.
To be thoroughly pedantic, the area affected is actually a 30x30 donut, not a square. The pack can't occupy the same space as another creature
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Just to understand your POV. Are you saying Conjure Animals affects the creatures on your turn, when you cast the spell?
Like I said. In that way, it works like Conjure Celestial. It doesn't affect the creatures when it appears but when it moves. But you can move it on the same turn as you cast it. So, in a way, yes. It can affect creatures on your turn, when you cast the spell (as long as you move it from its initial position, even by 5ft). But considering ridiculous it looks, I think any DM would rule that it can affect other creatures immediately, as it's effectively the same.
Just to understand your POV. Are you saying Conjure Animals affects the creatures on your turn, when you cast the spell?
Like I said. In that way, it works like Conjure Celestial. It doesn't affect the creatures when it appears but when it moves. But you can move it on the same turn as you cast it. So, in a way, yes. It can affect creatures on your turn, when you cast the spell (as long as you move it from its initial position, even by 5ft). But considering ridiculous it looks, I think any DM would rule that it can affect other creatures immediately, as it's effectively the same.
I just wanted to clarify that the area of effect of Conjure Animals is actually a 30'x30' square rather than a 10'x10' one depicted above.
To be thoroughly pedantic, the area affected is actually a 30x30 donut, not a square. The pack can't occupy the same space as another creature
I'm not so sure about this. I think that the phrase "within 10 feet of the pack" includes the pack's space(s). According to the rules for occupied spaces, the pack does not actually occupy its space(s) since the pack is neither a creature nor an object. Another creature could move into its space (although the pack explicitly cannot move into another creature's space).
Also, on another note, all of a sudden, I am seeing why the OP was asking about the mechanics for Spike Growth. According to the text for Conjure Animals we have this:
"Whenever the pack moves within 10 feet of a creature you can see and whenever a creature you can see enters a space within 10 feet of the pack or ends its turn there, you can force that creature to make a Dexterity saving throw."
So, this could be interpreted to mean that if a creature begins its turn already 10 feet away from the pack (which is within 10 feet of it) and then decides to move to an adjacent space which is 5 or 10 feet away from the pack (which is still within 10 feet of it), the creature could be forced to make a save because it is entering a new space that is within 10 feet of the pack. That's not originally how I was reading it but could be valid and would be a slightly more potent interpretation than triggering only when entering the overall affected area.
However, when the pack moves, I do not think that it works that same way (space-by-space) based on how that portion of the text is written ("whenever the pack moves within 10 feet of a creature" is not triggering the effect for every adjacent space that it moves within that area). I am reading that as "whenever the pack moves [to] within 10 feet" and NOT "whenever the pack moves [while] within 10 feet".
I think "a space" here refers to the entire area within 10 feet of the pack. Otherwise, any surface of any area can be considered "a space". You could stretch that idea to the extreme, saying a space is as small as Plank's distance (10^-35 m), and therefore even moving 1 inch would result in astronomical damage :D
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Conjure Animals (2024) is a confusing spell all around. It has similar effects to Spirit Guardians without any of the emanation wording, and uses vague wording that would suggest that it acts kind of like Spike Growth with the save being triggered for movement into any square within 10 ft of the pack even if you are already within 10 ft. How exactly is this spell supposed to be interpreted here? Does it act as Spirit Guardians where the effect only retriggers upon leaving and then reentering, or is it like Spike Growth where every square within 10 ft of the pack is supposed to trigger the ability to cause damage?
It is more like Spirit Guardians but not the same,.
Spirit Guardians:
- Caster moves and creature comes into emanation - it rolls a save and takes damage (EDIT: meant caster not guardian, fixed)
- Creature enters the Emanation or ends it's turn there - it rolls a save and takes damage
- Creature leaves the Emanation - it rolls nothing and takes no damage
- The emanation halves the speed of creatures affected by it
- A Creature only rolls 1 save per turn - it can only take damage from the roll
Spike Growth:
- Any creatures that moves into any area covered by spike growth takes damage when entering and for every 5 feet travelled inside
- It is difficult Terrain
- It is camouflaged and a creature that did not see it cast must make a Search check to discover it's location
Conjure Animals:
- Conjure Animals moves and a creature comes into range of it - it rolls a save and takes damage only on a failure
- Creature enters the area or ends it's turn there - it rolls a save and takes damage only on a failure
- Creature moves to another space within the area - it rolls a save and takes damage only on a failure
- A creature only rolls 1 save per turn - it can only take damage from the roll
One thing to note first: the reason that Conjure Animals doesn't use the word "emanation" is because an Emanation is centered on a creature or object and moves around when that creature/object moves around. Conjure Animals intentionally does not work that way, so it doesn't use that word.
I think you may have some misconceptions about how the other spells work, so here is how these three spells you've referenced work:
Conjure Animals is a Large (i.e., 2x2 on a 5-foot grid map) area effect that can be moved around by the caster. It forces a creature to make a Dexterity save when any of the following happen:
The creature is only subject to this effect the first time one of these things happens on a turn. The creature takes damage only if they fail the save.
Spirit Guardians is a 15-foot Emanation centered on the caster that moves around with the caster. It forces a creature to make a Wisdom save when any of the following happen:
The creature is only subject to this effect the first time one of these things happens on a turn. The creature takes full damage if they fail the save and half damage if they succeed.
Spike Growth is a 20-foot Sphere that can't move. A creature takes damage from it if any of the following happen:
The creature takes damage for every five feet it moves in the area, with no per-turn limit. There is no saving throw to resist it, but no damage is dealt if the creature stays in one spot within it.
pronouns: he/she/they
For Conjure Animals and Spirit Guardians, I'd say the creature also makes the saving throw as soon as the spell is cast and it's within the affected area.EDIT: see #22
I drew some examples of how we play this kind of spell on a grid:
- Spirit Guardians:
- Conjure Animals and Spike Growth:
EDIT: fixing Conjure Animals drawing, including the Area of Effect:
This is somewhat reasonable, but I do not think that this is the intent for these spells. For comparison, in my opinion the Conjure Animals spell works very similarly to the Moonbeam spell mechanically. However, the Moonbeam spell explicitly includes this language that these other two spells do not:
Moonbeam:
In contrast, the save in Spirit Guardians triggers when one or the other "enters". Likewise, the save in Conjure Animals triggers when one or the other "moves within 10 feet".
Although it's written differently, it's useful to think of Conjure Animals as an emanation that extends 10 feet outwards from a Large "creature", affecting an area similar to how TarodNet drew the affected area of Spirit Guardians around the Large size (but extending outwards 10 feet instead of 15 feet).
I can never remember where this rule is, so I'll have to rely on someone else to quote it, but I believe that it's still the rule (or guideline) in 2024 that if you are playing on a grid that whenever you are adjudicating an AoE which covers only a portion of a particular space then it affects that space if it covers at least half of that space. Using a diagram like the one above but adjusted to extend outwards 10 feet and using the guideline of the effect covering at least half of the space, you end up with an AoE on a grid something like this, which is basically a 6x6 square with the corner spaces excluded:
XXXXXXXX
XXOOOOXX
XOOOOOOX
XOOOOOOX
XOOOOOOX
XOOOOOOX
XXOOOOXX
XXXXXXXX
I just wanted to clarify that the area of effect of Conjure Animals is actually a 30'x30' square rather than a 10'x10' one depicted above.
Here is the text from the spell:
"You conjure nature spirits that appear as a Large pack of spectral, intangible animals in an unoccupied space you can see within range."
The Conjured spirits take up the space of a "large pack" ... i.e. a 10'x10' square or large creature space.
"Whenever the pack moves within 10 feet of a creature you can see and whenever a creature you can see enters a space within 10 feet of the pack or ends its turn there, you can force that creature to make a Dexterity saving throw."
The effect of the spell extends 10' from the "large pack".
If using circles rather than squares then the area is similar to your second spirit guardians area but with a extra radius of 10' from the large pack rather than 15'.
One other aspect of Conjure Animals to keep in mind is that the caster can move it up to 30' on their turn .. any creature the pack is within 10' of during this move are also affected by the spell.
@David42, yeah, sorry! I only drew the Large pack, not the affected area.
Something like this, right?
Also, for the sake of fairness and honesty, I remember a friendly discussion with you about how to interpret an Emanation: Paladin Aura of Protection
EDIT: in case it's useful to someone else:
I agree with this. IMO, it's similar to Moonbeam, so it's an effect you move rather than a teleport.
I could agree with your explanation for Conjure Animals when cast, although it'd be practically the same outcome if you cast the spell and then move the pack.
But for Spirit Guardians, the new wording in those spells was already discussed in previous threads, and I think the intent is the creatures are affected when you cast the Area of Effect overlapping them. You could also interpret "whenever the Emanation enters a creature’s space" as the Emanation entering that space when you cast the spell.EDIT2: see #22
Yeah, I only drew the pack, sorry, not the affected area. But I think, for Conjure Animals, the corners are also included because the spell says the affected area is "within 10 feet"
About the rule, I think you're referring to this one:
Just leaving some related threads about the new wording of Spirit Guardians and the like:
This is a fine approximation based on the standard simplified diagonal counting.
For more precision you could also draw an outer shape with the straight parallel lines opposite the inner shape but from each corner you could draw a quarter-circle. I believe that would cause the corner spaces to become excluded. Such a method would be more closely approximated with the alternate diagonal counting method where every other diagonal costs extra. So, instead of diagonal spaces being 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30 feet away they would be 5, 15, 20, 30, 35, 45 feet away.
I'm not sure if this alternate diagonal counting has actually made it into the 2024 books or not.
Yeah there's no need to go too far down that rabbit hole in this thread. I was just pointing out, and I think you would agree, that in terms of RAW the Moonbeam spell is much more explicit about the effect triggering the damage immediately when the spell is cast than either of these other two spells. The RAI on these other two spells could go either way depending on implicit interpretation.
I should have noted that we don't use the optional rule in the DMG about diagonals on a grid, where as you said, range is measured differently. But the rule was kept in the 2024 book, yes.
I agree, sure, but just to leave a final thought: if we rule it that way, it might make it a bit harder to affect your enemies, especially in the case of Spirit Guardians.EDIT2: see #22
It's neither. The presence of the pack on the battle map works like Guardian of Faith. It's a large creature with an AoE attached to it.
The movements of the pack work like Conjure Celestial. It gains 30ft of movement, so long as you also move during your turn.
As for the damage and saving throw, it works like Moonbeam.
Is that not what I drew?
Just to understand your POV. Are you saying Conjure Animals affects the creatures on your turn, when you cast the spell?
To be thoroughly pedantic, the area affected is actually a 30x30 donut, not a square. The pack can't occupy the same space as another creature
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It is! :)
Like I said. In that way, it works like Conjure Celestial. It doesn't affect the creatures when it appears but when it moves. But you can move it on the same turn as you cast it. So, in a way, yes. It can affect creatures on your turn, when you cast the spell (as long as you move it from its initial position, even by 5ft).
But considering ridiculous it looks, I think any DM would rule that it can affect other creatures immediately, as it's effectively the same.
Ok, Natrel, thanks for your answer!
I'm not so sure about this. I think that the phrase "within 10 feet of the pack" includes the pack's space(s). According to the rules for occupied spaces, the pack does not actually occupy its space(s) since the pack is neither a creature nor an object. Another creature could move into its space (although the pack explicitly cannot move into another creature's space).
Also, on another note, all of a sudden, I am seeing why the OP was asking about the mechanics for Spike Growth. According to the text for Conjure Animals we have this:
"Whenever the pack moves within 10 feet of a creature you can see and whenever a creature you can see enters a space within 10 feet of the pack or ends its turn there, you can force that creature to make a Dexterity saving throw."
So, this could be interpreted to mean that if a creature begins its turn already 10 feet away from the pack (which is within 10 feet of it) and then decides to move to an adjacent space which is 5 or 10 feet away from the pack (which is still within 10 feet of it), the creature could be forced to make a save because it is entering a new space that is within 10 feet of the pack. That's not originally how I was reading it but could be valid and would be a slightly more potent interpretation than triggering only when entering the overall affected area.
However, when the pack moves, I do not think that it works that same way (space-by-space) based on how that portion of the text is written ("whenever the pack moves within 10 feet of a creature" is not triggering the effect for every adjacent space that it moves within that area). I am reading that as "whenever the pack moves [to] within 10 feet" and NOT "whenever the pack moves [while] within 10 feet".
I think "a space" here refers to the entire area within 10 feet of the pack. Otherwise, any surface of any area can be considered "a space". You could stretch that idea to the extreme, saying a space is as small as Plank's distance (10^-35 m), and therefore even moving 1 inch would result in astronomical damage :D