On my Discord channel there is a debate going on about crafting scrolls using 2024 PHB.
The PHB says this specifically, ""Scribing a scroll takes an amount of time and money based on the level of the spell...".
I think there are two important things stated here. First is the amount of time and money. It takes 1 day/25g to create a first level scroll. But a level 3 scroll takes 5 days/150g. So what if I take the 5 days and pay 150 and my selected spell is Cure Wounds?
Secondly is "the level of the spell". Which begs the question: is a spell level equal to the base level of the spell or is it equal to the spell slot it consumes?
Thoughts? I can find nothing in the DMG and I don't have the new Ebberon book yet.
If you scribe Cure Wounds as a 1st level spell onto a scroll, that scroll will cast it at 1st level. If you scribe Cure Wounds as a 3rd level spell onto a scroll, that scroll will cast it at 3rd level. The "level of the spell" is the level at which it is scribed/cast.
On my Discord channel there is a debate going on about crafting scrolls using 2024 PHB.
The PHB says this specifically, ""Scribing a scroll takes an amount of time and money based on the level of the spell...".
I think there are two important things stated here. First is the amount of time and money. It takes 1 day/25g to create a first level scroll. But a level 3 scroll takes 5 days/150g. So what if I take the 5 days and pay 150 and my selected spell is Cure Wounds?
Secondly is "the level of the spell". Which begs the question: is a spell level equal to the base level of the spell or is it equal to the spell slot it consumes?
Thoughts? I can find nothing in the DMG and I don't have the new Ebberon book yet.
The answer is in the Casting Spells section of the PHB.
When you cast a spell with spell slots, you can upcast it by using a spell slot that is higher than the spell's listed spell level. Whether that has additional effects depends on the spell description. When you cast a spell from a magic item, you are not using spell slots. You also do not use spell slots when scribing scrolls.
If you scribe Cure Wounds as a 1st level spell onto a scroll, that scroll will cast it at 1st level. If you scribe Cure Wounds as a 3rd level spell onto a scroll, that scroll will cast it at 3rd level. The "level of the spell" is the level at which it is scribed/cast.
There are no rules for upcasting a spell while scribing it. You are not casting it, so the normal rules about using a higher-level spell slot do not apply.
If you scribe Cure Wounds as a 1st level spell onto a scroll, that scroll will cast it at 1st level. If you scribe Cure Wounds as a 3rd level spell onto a scroll, that scroll will cast it at 3rd level. The "level of the spell" is the level at which it is scribed/cast.
There are no rules for upcasting a spell while scribing it. You are not casting it, so the normal rules about using a higher-level spell slot do not apply.
I agree.
I had the same misunderstanding as AnzioFaro. wagnarokkr pointed me in the right direction:
As stated, there's no rules for crafting scrolls at a higher level.
I'm going to take this one step further:
"Some magic items allow the user to cast a spell from the item. The spell is cast at the lowest possible spell and caster level, doesn’t expend any of the user’s spell slots, and requires no components unless the item’s description notes otherwise. The spell uses its normal casting time, range, and duration, and the user of the item must concentrate if the spell requires Concentration. Many items, such as Potions, bypass the casting of a spell and confer the spell’s effects with its usual duration. Certain items make exceptions to these rules, changing the casting time, duration, or other parts of a spell."
Just as Staff of the Magi (as an example) changes the level of Fireball and Lightning Bolt, creating an exception to the rule, if your group allows crafting at a higher level as a house rule, the above rule from the DMG would mean the spells are cast at a higher level as well.
Just to specifically address the question asked in the title: if you actually castCure Wounds with a 3rd-level spell slot, it counts as a 3rd-level spell.
But as others have pointed out, it's not possible to do that while creating a spell scroll, because you are not casting a spell or using a spell slot of any level when you do that.
I'd argue that scrolls containing upcast versions of specifically Cure Wounds exist as treasure in official game modules (e.g. the Sunless Citadel, which has a 2nd-level version of the spell on a scroll in room 12). Admittedly, those modules are largely based on 2014 rules, but I don't know that the rules for crafting scrolls is so dramatically different that it wouldn't be legal to create an upcast spell scroll, assuming you're willing to spend the additional time and resources to do so. I think this more likely falls into a "DM's call" area than a hard rule.
I'd argue that scrolls containing upcast versions of specifically Cure Wounds exist as treasure in official game modules (e.g. the Sunless Citadel, which has a 2nd-level version of the spell on a scroll in room 12). Admittedly, those modules are largely based on 2014 rules, but I don't know that the rules for crafting scrolls is so dramatically different that it wouldn't be legal to create an upcast spell scroll, assuming you're willing to spend the additional time and resources to do so. I think this more likely falls into a "DM's call" area than a hard rule.
Technically, if you allow crafting upcast spell scrolls under the current rules, there is nothing technically restricting the spell level other than the spells you can prepare. If you have the gold somehow, you can craft a level 9 Cure Wounds scroll before you could be able to cast it. This is particularly true with spells that are always prepared without a spell slot to cast them (such as via Magic Initiate).
As such, if you choose to allow this, define a method to restrict what level spells can be scribed.
I don't think there is a restriction, at least by RAW. The limitation in the 2014 rules was that you had to expend the spell slots necessary to craft the scroll every day as you're crafting it, so you could only upcast to the level of your highest spell slot. But that limitation was removed in the 2024 rules. 2024 lacks any limitation on the spell scroll's spell level other than time and expense. Now, the rules do state explicitly that spells cast from magic items are cast at the lowest level. However in the same paragraph, it says "Certain items make exceptions to these rules, changing the casting time, duration, or other parts of a spell." A good example, as Athanar90 pointed out, is the Staff of the Magi, which allows the casting of Fireball and Lightning Bolt at higher levels. Thus, it stands to reason, that magic items with upcast spells are craftable, and so it stands to reason that spell scrolls with upcast spells are craftable.
Saying all that, the absence of a level limitation for crafting things like scrolls is obviously an oversight, not an intentional rules change, and I'd rule as a DM that you can only craft an upcast spell to a level you're able to cast. However, if I'm making a ruling based on RAW, I'm saying no such limitation exists.
I don't think there is a restriction, at least by RAW. The limitation in the 2014 rules was that you had to expend the spell slots necessary to craft the scroll every day as you're crafting it, so you could only upcast to the level of your highest spell slot.
There is no allowance in 2024 or 2014. Just because you had to expend a spell slot of the spell's level does not mean expending a higher-level slot has any benefit. The increased effect for a spell due to using a higher-level spell slot is a rule for casting not crafting. It does not inherently apply to spell scrolls and this is not new to 2024. In 2014, if you house ruled upcasting spell scrolls, you had an inherent restriction due to the need to expend an appropriate spell slot. In 2024, the house rule is no longer limited and needs to be rethought.
I don't think there is a restriction, at least by RAW. The limitation in the 2014 rules was that you had to expend the spell slots necessary to craft the scroll every day as you're crafting it, so you could only upcast to the level of your highest spell slot. But that limitation was removed in the 2024 rules. 2024 lacks any limitation on the spell scroll's spell level other than time and expense. Now, the rules do state explicitly that spells cast from magic items are cast at the lowest level. However in the same paragraph, it says "Certain items make exceptions to these rules, changing the casting time, duration, or other parts of a spell." A good example, as Athanar90 pointed out, is the Staff of the Magi, which allows the casting of Fireball and Lightning Bolt at higher levels. Thus, it stands to reason, that magic items with upcast spells are craftable, and so it stands to reason that spell scrolls with upcast spells are craftable.
Saying all that, the absence of a level limitation for crafting things like scrolls is obviously an oversight, not an intentional rules change, and I'd rule as a DM that you can only craft an upcast spell to a level you're able to cast. However, if I'm making a ruling based on RAW, I'm saying no such limitation exists.
Items that are listed in the DMG with special properties, such as Staff of the Magi, are crafted as they are, according to the rules for crafting the magic item in the DMG rules. Thus a Staff of the Magi requires at least a 13th level spellcaster, because Plane Shift is one of the spells that can be cast using the item, and must be prepared by the spellcaster during the item's crafting. It is a Legendary Magic Item requiring at least 250 days of crafting plus 100000 gp to craft. That's it. It's a very simplified ruleset.
The 2024 PHB and the 2024 DMG do not contain rules for crafting spell scrolls that have a boosted effect similar to using a higher level slot. It is possible to stock adventures with items that are not possible for players to create. The existence of a scroll with unusual properties doesn't necessitate that PCs should be capable of crafting such an item, nor is it possible with the 2024 rules as they are written.
DMs can rule what PCs can craft in their games in whatever way they see fit. If they want PCs to be able to craft Wands of Fireball by spitting on a fire elemental, then that's how it's done. I would advise consulting the players first whether they are okay with unusual rulings.
EDIT: As a point of interest, scrolls supplied by DMs using the DMG in an adventure have a table with set prescribed save DCs and attack rolls. According to the PHB, spell scrolls made by PCs use their spellcasting attribute for determining spell attack bonus and save DCs. Cantrips scribed by PCs into spell scrolls use their level for additional effects.
On my Discord channel there is a debate going on about crafting scrolls using 2024 PHB.
The PHB says this specifically, ""Scribing a scroll takes an amount of time and money based on the level of the spell...".
I think there are two important things stated here. First is the amount of time and money. It takes 1 day/25g to create a first level scroll. But a level 3 scroll takes 5 days/150g. So what if I take the 5 days and pay 150 and my selected spell is Cure Wounds?
Secondly is "the level of the spell". Which begs the question: is a spell level equal to the base level of the spell or is it equal to the spell slot it consumes?
Thoughts? I can find nothing in the DMG and I don't have the new Ebberon book yet.
If you scribe Cure Wounds as a 1st level spell onto a scroll, that scroll will cast it at 1st level. If you scribe Cure Wounds as a 3rd level spell onto a scroll, that scroll will cast it at 3rd level. The "level of the spell" is the level at which it is scribed/cast.
Anzio Faro. Protector Aasimar light cleric. Lvl 18.
Viktor Gavriil. White dragonborn grave cleric. Lvl 20.
Ikram Sahir ibn-Malik al-Sayyid Ra'ad. Brass dragonborn draconic sorcerer Lvl 9. Fire elemental devil.
Wrangler of cats.
The answer is in the Casting Spells section of the PHB.
When you cast a spell with spell slots, you can upcast it by using a spell slot that is higher than the spell's listed spell level. Whether that has additional effects depends on the spell description. When you cast a spell from a magic item, you are not using spell slots. You also do not use spell slots when scribing scrolls.
There are no rules for upcasting a spell while scribing it. You are not casting it, so the normal rules about using a higher-level spell slot do not apply.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
I agree.
I had the same misunderstanding as AnzioFaro. wagnarokkr pointed me in the right direction:
As stated, there's no rules for crafting scrolls at a higher level.
I'm going to take this one step further:
"Some magic items allow the user to cast a spell from the item. The spell is cast at the lowest possible spell and caster level, doesn’t expend any of the user’s spell slots, and requires no components unless the item’s description notes otherwise. The spell uses its normal casting time, range, and duration, and the user of the item must concentrate if the spell requires Concentration. Many items, such as Potions, bypass the casting of a spell and confer the spell’s effects with its usual duration. Certain items make exceptions to these rules, changing the casting time, duration, or other parts of a spell."
Just as Staff of the Magi (as an example) changes the level of Fireball and Lightning Bolt, creating an exception to the rule, if your group allows crafting at a higher level as a house rule, the above rule from the DMG would mean the spells are cast at a higher level as well.
Just to specifically address the question asked in the title: if you actually cast Cure Wounds with a 3rd-level spell slot, it counts as a 3rd-level spell.
But as others have pointed out, it's not possible to do that while creating a spell scroll, because you are not casting a spell or using a spell slot of any level when you do that.
pronouns: he/she/they
I'd argue that scrolls containing upcast versions of specifically Cure Wounds exist as treasure in official game modules (e.g. the Sunless Citadel, which has a 2nd-level version of the spell on a scroll in room 12). Admittedly, those modules are largely based on 2014 rules, but I don't know that the rules for crafting scrolls is so dramatically different that it wouldn't be legal to create an upcast spell scroll, assuming you're willing to spend the additional time and resources to do so. I think this more likely falls into a "DM's call" area than a hard rule.
Technically, if you allow crafting upcast spell scrolls under the current rules, there is nothing technically restricting the spell level other than the spells you can prepare. If you have the gold somehow, you can craft a level 9 Cure Wounds scroll before you could be able to cast it. This is particularly true with spells that are always prepared without a spell slot to cast them (such as via Magic Initiate).
As such, if you choose to allow this, define a method to restrict what level spells can be scribed.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
I don't think there is a restriction, at least by RAW. The limitation in the 2014 rules was that you had to expend the spell slots necessary to craft the scroll every day as you're crafting it, so you could only upcast to the level of your highest spell slot. But that limitation was removed in the 2024 rules. 2024 lacks any limitation on the spell scroll's spell level other than time and expense. Now, the rules do state explicitly that spells cast from magic items are cast at the lowest level. However in the same paragraph, it says "Certain items make exceptions to these rules, changing the casting time, duration, or other parts of a spell." A good example, as Athanar90 pointed out, is the Staff of the Magi, which allows the casting of Fireball and Lightning Bolt at higher levels. Thus, it stands to reason, that magic items with upcast spells are craftable, and so it stands to reason that spell scrolls with upcast spells are craftable.
Saying all that, the absence of a level limitation for crafting things like scrolls is obviously an oversight, not an intentional rules change, and I'd rule as a DM that you can only craft an upcast spell to a level you're able to cast. However, if I'm making a ruling based on RAW, I'm saying no such limitation exists.
There is no allowance in 2024 or 2014. Just because you had to expend a spell slot of the spell's level does not mean expending a higher-level slot has any benefit. The increased effect for a spell due to using a higher-level spell slot is a rule for casting not crafting. It does not inherently apply to spell scrolls and this is not new to 2024. In 2014, if you house ruled upcasting spell scrolls, you had an inherent restriction due to the need to expend an appropriate spell slot. In 2024, the house rule is no longer limited and needs to be rethought.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
Items that are listed in the DMG with special properties, such as Staff of the Magi, are crafted as they are, according to the rules for crafting the magic item in the DMG rules. Thus a Staff of the Magi requires at least a 13th level spellcaster, because Plane Shift is one of the spells that can be cast using the item, and must be prepared by the spellcaster during the item's crafting. It is a Legendary Magic Item requiring at least 250 days of crafting plus 100000 gp to craft. That's it. It's a very simplified ruleset.
The 2024 PHB and the 2024 DMG do not contain rules for crafting spell scrolls that have a boosted effect similar to using a higher level slot. It is possible to stock adventures with items that are not possible for players to create. The existence of a scroll with unusual properties doesn't necessitate that PCs should be capable of crafting such an item, nor is it possible with the 2024 rules as they are written.
DMs can rule what PCs can craft in their games in whatever way they see fit. If they want PCs to be able to craft Wands of Fireball by spitting on a fire elemental, then that's how it's done. I would advise consulting the players first whether they are okay with unusual rulings.
EDIT: As a point of interest, scrolls supplied by DMs using the DMG in an adventure have a table with set prescribed save DCs and attack rolls. According to the PHB, spell scrolls made by PCs use their spellcasting attribute for determining spell attack bonus and save DCs. Cantrips scribed by PCs into spell scrolls use their level for additional effects.