So please correct me if i am wrong with anything I wrote or if i am missing anything important.
For the entire Post I will assume the following example:
The Player Character is a Sorcerer let's say at Level 20 with a Charisma of 20 and Basic Charisma Modifier +5. My Enemy for this example has an AC of 25.
From my understanding I now cast any spell that doesn't involve a saving throw all I have to do is rolling a D20 and my result needs to be equal or higher to the AC of 25 right? And I think I would also get my Charisma Modifier added on top of that. So to hit I would need to role a 20 to make that Spell hit the enemy right?
Now if my enemy needs to make a saving throw he can have either advantage or disadvantage against me. And the same goes for the opposite. Now if my enemy would always have advantage against Spells that means he would role 2D20 instead of 1 and just choose the highest. Same thing if I have Advantage on my Spellcasting. And Disadvantage works the same way just that you would take the lowest out of the 2D20 rolls. Is that correct so far? And from another Post I found I can't have 2 Advantages/Disadvantages from different sources, i can always only have 1 Advantage and 1 Disadvantage and if I have both they would cancel each other out so that I only roll 1D20.
But how would it work if I have Advantage with an attack and my enemy has Disadvantage against the same attack. Do we roll still 2D20 or just 1 because it feels like it's the same thing as stacking Advantages what doesn't work but I am not sure.
And at the end it's just comparing his Role to mine and if my role is higher then my Spell works?
And the worst case is DC. I know it means Difficulty Class and is listed in many Spells I did see but I still don't understand it how its working because the wording of how DC is mentioned in Spells is just confusing for me as a new player.
I appreciate the help so I can become a better player.
The Player Character is a Sorcerer let's say at Level 20 with a Charisma of 20 and Basic Charisma Modifier +5. My Enemy for this example has an AC of 25.
From my understanding I now cast any spell that doesn't involve a saving throw all I have to do is rolling a D20 and my result needs to be equal or higher to the AC of 25 right? And I think I would also get my Charisma Modifier added on top of that. So to hit I would need to role a 20 to make that Spell hit the enemy right?
If the spell says it involves making an attack, then you roll a d20 and add your spell attack modifier. Your spell attack modifier is equal to your spellcasting ability modifier plus your proficiency bonus. In the example you described, that would be +11: 5 for your Charisma modifier and 6 for your proficiency bonus. Thus, to hit a target with an AC of 25, you'd need to roll a 14 or higher on the die.
Now if my enemy needs to make a saving throw he can have either advantage or disadvantage against me. And the same goes for the opposite. Now if my enemy would always have advantage against Spells that means he would role 2D20 instead of 1 and just choose the highest. Same thing if I have Advantage on my Spellcasting. And Disadvantage works the same way just that you would take the lowest out of the 2D20 rolls. Is that correct so far? And from another Post I found I can't have 2 Advantages/Disadvantages from different sources, i can always only have 1 Advantage and 1 Disadvantage and if I have both they would cancel each other out so that I only roll 1D20.
Yes. When you have advantage on a roll, you roll two d20s and choose the higher. When you have disadvantage, you roll two d20s and choose the lower. If both apply to the same roll, you roll one die as normal.
But how would it work if I have Advantage with an attack and my enemy has Disadvantage against the same attack. Do we roll still 2D20 or just 1 because it feels like it's the same thing as stacking Advantages what doesn't work but I am not sure.
Advantage or disadvantage is something you have on a roll. If you're making an attack, you're the one rolling; the target doesn't roll anything, so they can't have advantage or disadvantage.
And at the end it's just comparing his Role to mine and if my role is higher then my Spell works?
If the spell requires an attack, you roll an attack to see if the spell hits. If the spell requires a saving throw, the target rolls a saving throw to see if they resist the spell's effects. Spells generally do not require both the caster and the target to roll at the same time; it's one or the other.
And the worst case is DC. I know it means Difficulty Class and is listed in many Spells I did see but I still don't understand it how its working because the wording of how DC is mentioned in Spells is just confusing for me as a new player.
Difficulty Class is the number you need to roll on an ability check or saving throw for it to be successful. For spells, it's calculated based on the caster's spellcasting ability modifier. So, when you cast a spell that requires the target to roll a saving throw, if they roll lower than the DC, the spell affects them fully; if they roll equal to or higher than the DC, they succeed on the saving throw and it doesn't fully affect them (some spells still impose a lesser effect in this case, like half damage). So, you want your spell save DC to be higher, so that it's harder for enemies to successfully resist your spells.
Still very new to DnD and trying to learn more....The Player Character is a Sorcerer let's say at Level 20
To be honest, if you are new and trying to learn, you might be better off using a level 1 PC as an example and as a way to learn. Level 20 characters can get very complicated, level 1 has it's own complication, but is structured a bit simpler.
Once you understand the above answers, you may want to grab that level 1 sorcerer, with reduced abilities and self verify that you get the correct answer for the reduced numbers.
How does it work with that Spell? Because it says as I did copy from there that it does damage to the target so that makes it an attack or not? But the enemy would also need to make a saving throw as for the description of a later part of the Spell. While Tiamat states that she has always advantage while being affected from saving throws or other magic effects. That sounds for me like it also means Spells in general like the once that just do damage?
Just want to be sure because that case sounds like I could have advantage because I am attacking but Tiamat also would have advantage while being attacked, if I do understand it correctly how this 2 cases work.
That's true but I do research for both early and late game information. Because for me it's better to be prepared in general as if I would be only prepared for the start but then have to do it all over again because of missing information for mid or late game stories. And the reason why I did choose this specific example is because it fits to what I found and did some research about. It may be not the most realistic case with that enemy but still it did interests me a lot.
How does it work with that Spell? Because it says as I did copy from there that it does damage to the target so that makes it an attack or not?
I think what you're missing here is that the word "attack" has a very specific meaning in D&D and doesn't refer to just anything that causes damage. Lots of things in D&D cause damage without technically being "attacks".
If a spell's description tells you explicitly to make an attack, then it's an attack. That one doesn't, so it's not an attack. Instead, it has the target roll a saving throw.
Tiamat's stat block says she's immune to spells of level 6 and lower, and has advantage on saving throws against other spells. Feeblemind is an 8th-level spell, so she's not immune to it, but she does have advantage on the saving throw against it.
It may be useful to compare two much simpler spells. This is from Ray of Frost, which uses an attack:
A frigid beam of blue-white light streaks toward a creature within range. Make a ranged spell attack against the target. On a hit, it takes 1d8 Cold damage, and its Speed is reduced by 10 feet until the start of your next turn.
This is from Acid Splash, which does not use an attack, instead calling for targets to make a saving throw:
You create an acidic bubble at a point within range, where it explodes in a 5-foot-radius Sphere. Each creature in that Sphere must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or take 1d6 Acid damage.
You'll note that one says to make an attack, while the other does not, though both do damage.
Just want to be sure because that case sounds like I could have advantage because I am attacking but Tiamat also would have advantage while being attacked, if I do understand it correctly how this 2 cases work.
Usually spells are one or the other but Feeblemind is a high level spell that has two effects. So it is both an attack (that you can have advantage on) and an saving throw (that Tiamat would have advantage on).
Edit: Well darn, I should have read that a bit closer....
Just want to be sure because that case sounds like I could have advantage because I am attacking but Tiamat also would have advantage while being attacked, if I do understand it correctly how this 2 cases work.
Usually spells are one or the other but Feeblemind is a high level spell that has two effects. So it is both an attack (that you can have advantage on) and an saving throw (that Tiamat would have advantage on).
Feeblemind does not use an attack roll at any point.
It does have two effects, but one of them (the damage) happens automatically and the other (the decrease in Intelligence and Charisma scores) only happens if the target fails a saving throw.
Ok so that's a similar case to something being a Simple Weapon and something being treated like a Simple Weapon, what I learned today. Just because it sounds like it's the same thing doesn't mean it's actually the same. Sounds like I need to pay attention to every single word in the description to be sure haha
Feeblemind does not use an attack roll at any point.
You are correct, not sure how I missed that.
It's easy to miss. Spells where something happens automatically (without an attack or a save) only ever tell you that by omission; they never actually come out and say something like "the target takes 4d6 psychic damage with no saving throw to resist it". It's a WOTC design philosophy that I find really irritating sometimes.
That's true but I do research for both early and late game information. Because for me it's better to be prepared in general as if I would be only prepared for the start but then have to do it all over again because of missing information for mid or late game stories. And the reason why I did choose this specific example is because it fits to what I found and did some research about. It may be not the most realistic case with that enemy but still it did interests me a lot.
The rules don't really change from low to high level, just options. Taking the time to understand the low levels without the overhead of all the specifics and edge cases of the high levels reduces the amount of confusion about the actual rules. It is likely that if you had played a campaign up through level 15 where you can get Feeblemind, you'd already be experienced enough to answer that question yourself, but trying to figure it out right now—when you're just starting out—is, as you found, difficult. For Feeblemind specifically in fact, it appears there is no roll on the caster's part at all... the damage just happens, which is odd for spells, but completely understandable once you've cast hundreds of spells and read dozens of spell descriptions during play.
A better example might be Ice Knife. When you cast the spell, you make an attack roll against your target. In that case, you use your spell attack modifier (spell ability modifier + proficiency) to make the attack. In the OP's case, this would be a +11 (5 Charisma plus 6 Proficiency) vs. your opponent's AC of 25. If there is some circumstance that allows you to gain advantage on the attack roll (for example, if your target is Restrained), you would roll 2d20, and 11 to the higher of the two rolls. If, instead, there is some circumstance that causes you to have disadvantage on the attack roll (for example, if you are Restrained), you would roll 2d20, and add 11 to the lower of the two attack rolls. If there is some circumstance that causes you to have both advantage and disadvantage (for example, if you are bothRestrained), you would roll normally and add 11 to the result. Bears mentioning that Advantage and Disadvantage always cancel each other out, and never stack. So if you have Advantage from two sources, you would only roll with Advantage once, and if you have Advantage from two sources and Disadvantage from one source (say your target is Blinded and you are both Restrained), you would not roll with Advantage, you would roll normally.
Now, after you resolve the attack roll with the target, then, regardless of whether you hit or miss, the ice shard explodes. At that point, the target and everything within five feet of them must make a Dexterity saving throw against your spell save DC. In the OP's case, this would be DC 19 (8 plus 5 Charisma plus 6 Proficiency). The same rules for Advantage apply here. If, for example, they have spell resistance, they would make the save with Advantage. If they are Restrained, they would make the save with Disadvantage. If they have spell resistance and are Restrained, they would make the save normally.
Bears noting that none of these rolls are contested. You are making your attack roll against their AC, and whether you hit or miss, they are then making their saving throw against the spell save's DC. So even if you make your attack roll and critically succeed or fail, then their saving throw DC remains at a 19. Likewise, regardless of whether they save or not, the attack roll resolves normally. The only time a roll is contested is if the rule explicitly states that it is contested, with language like "You make a Strength (Athletics) roll, contested by your opponent's Dexterity (Acrobatics) roll" or something like that.
Feeblemind does not use an attack roll at any point.
You are correct, not sure how I missed that.
It's easy to miss. Spells where something happens automatically (without an attack or a save) only ever tell you that by omission; they never actually come out and say something like "the target takes 4d6 psychic damage with no saving throw to resist it". It's a WOTC design philosophy that I find really irritating sometimes.
It's almost true that an ability will always either have you make an attack roll, or force the enemy to make a saving throw, but never both. I think that in the 2024 rules, it's only not the case when it's a normal attack where you can activate an additional ability. (Stunning strike, topple weapon mastery, some of the smite-type spells, etc.)
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Still very new to DnD and trying to learn more.
So please correct me if i am wrong with anything I wrote or if i am missing anything important.
For the entire Post I will assume the following example:
The Player Character is a Sorcerer let's say at Level 20 with a Charisma of 20 and Basic Charisma Modifier +5. My Enemy for this example has an AC of 25.
From my understanding I now cast any spell that doesn't involve a saving throw all I have to do is rolling a D20 and my result needs to be equal or higher to the AC of 25 right? And I think I would also get my Charisma Modifier added on top of that. So to hit I would need to role a 20 to make that Spell hit the enemy right?
Now if my enemy needs to make a saving throw he can have either advantage or disadvantage against me. And the same goes for the opposite. Now if my enemy would always have advantage against Spells that means he would role 2D20 instead of 1 and just choose the highest. Same thing if I have Advantage on my Spellcasting. And Disadvantage works the same way just that you would take the lowest out of the 2D20 rolls. Is that correct so far? And from another Post I found I can't have 2 Advantages/Disadvantages from different sources, i can always only have 1 Advantage and 1 Disadvantage and if I have both they would cancel each other out so that I only roll 1D20.
But how would it work if I have Advantage with an attack and my enemy has Disadvantage against the same attack. Do we roll still 2D20 or just 1 because it feels like it's the same thing as stacking Advantages what doesn't work but I am not sure.
And at the end it's just comparing his Role to mine and if my role is higher then my Spell works?
And the worst case is DC. I know it means Difficulty Class and is listed in many Spells I did see but I still don't understand it how its working because the wording of how DC is mentioned in Spells is just confusing for me as a new player.
I appreciate the help so I can become a better player.
If the spell says it involves making an attack, then you roll a d20 and add your spell attack modifier. Your spell attack modifier is equal to your spellcasting ability modifier plus your proficiency bonus. In the example you described, that would be +11: 5 for your Charisma modifier and 6 for your proficiency bonus. Thus, to hit a target with an AC of 25, you'd need to roll a 14 or higher on the die.
Yes. When you have advantage on a roll, you roll two d20s and choose the higher. When you have disadvantage, you roll two d20s and choose the lower. If both apply to the same roll, you roll one die as normal.
Advantage or disadvantage is something you have on a roll. If you're making an attack, you're the one rolling; the target doesn't roll anything, so they can't have advantage or disadvantage.
If the spell requires an attack, you roll an attack to see if the spell hits. If the spell requires a saving throw, the target rolls a saving throw to see if they resist the spell's effects. Spells generally do not require both the caster and the target to roll at the same time; it's one or the other.
Difficulty Class is the number you need to roll on an ability check or saving throw for it to be successful. For spells, it's calculated based on the caster's spellcasting ability modifier. So, when you cast a spell that requires the target to roll a saving throw, if they roll lower than the DC, the spell affects them fully; if they roll equal to or higher than the DC, they succeed on the saving throw and it doesn't fully affect them (some spells still impose a lesser effect in this case, like half damage). So, you want your spell save DC to be higher, so that it's harder for enemies to successfully resist your spells.
pronouns: he/she/they
To be honest, if you are new and trying to learn, you might be better off using a level 1 PC as an example and as a way to learn. Level 20 characters can get very complicated, level 1 has it's own complication, but is structured a bit simpler.
Once you understand the above answers, you may want to grab that level 1 sorcerer, with reduced abilities and self verify that you get the correct answer for the reduced numbers.
Ok I basically did only forgot to add the +6 Proficiency Bonus in the first section part. Good to know.
Ok interesting I thought it can be both because of something I found in my research about DnD stuff. Here 2 links I am referring to.
Feeblemind Spell under 2014:
"The target takes 4d6 psychic damage and must make an Intelligence saving throw."
Rules: https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/2096-feeblemind?srsltid=AfmBOooQcJA5jIKCLw6tzokb0mBr5pwdqSbr1S2MRzmmbpJZPcleUDB-
Tiamat Stat Block:
"She has advantage on saving throws against all other spells and magical effects."
https://www.aidedd.org/dnd/monstres.php?vo=tiamat
How does it work with that Spell? Because it says as I did copy from there that it does damage to the target so that makes it an attack or not? But the enemy would also need to make a saving throw as for the description of a later part of the Spell. While Tiamat states that she has always advantage while being affected from saving throws or other magic effects. That sounds for me like it also means Spells in general like the once that just do damage?
Just want to be sure because that case sounds like I could have advantage because I am attacking but Tiamat also would have advantage while being attacked, if I do understand it correctly how this 2 cases work.
I hope I don't misunderstood something
That's true but I do research for both early and late game information. Because for me it's better to be prepared in general as if I would be only prepared for the start but then have to do it all over again because of missing information for mid or late game stories. And the reason why I did choose this specific example is because it fits to what I found and did some research about. It may be not the most realistic case with that enemy but still it did interests me a lot.
I think what you're missing here is that the word "attack" has a very specific meaning in D&D and doesn't refer to just anything that causes damage. Lots of things in D&D cause damage without technically being "attacks".
If a spell's description tells you explicitly to make an attack, then it's an attack. That one doesn't, so it's not an attack. Instead, it has the target roll a saving throw.
Tiamat's stat block says she's immune to spells of level 6 and lower, and has advantage on saving throws against other spells. Feeblemind is an 8th-level spell, so she's not immune to it, but she does have advantage on the saving throw against it.
pronouns: he/she/they
It may be useful to compare two much simpler spells. This is from Ray of Frost, which uses an attack:
This is from Acid Splash, which does not use an attack, instead calling for targets to make a saving throw:
You'll note that one says to make an attack, while the other does not, though both do damage.
pronouns: he/she/they
Usually spells are one or the other but Feeblemind is a high level spell that has two effects.
So it is both an attack (that you can have advantage on)and an saving throw (that Tiamat would have advantage on).Edit:
Well darn, I should have read that a bit closer....
Feeblemind does not use an attack roll at any point.
It does have two effects, but one of them (the damage) happens automatically and the other (the decrease in Intelligence and Charisma scores) only happens if the target fails a saving throw.
pronouns: he/she/they
Ok so that's a similar case to something being a Simple Weapon and something being treated like a Simple Weapon, what I learned today. Just because it sounds like it's the same thing doesn't mean it's actually the same. Sounds like I need to pay attention to every single word in the description to be sure haha
Yeah I did understand it thank you for the additional example
You are correct, not sure how I missed that.
It's easy to miss. Spells where something happens automatically (without an attack or a save) only ever tell you that by omission; they never actually come out and say something like "the target takes 4d6 psychic damage with no saving throw to resist it". It's a WOTC design philosophy that I find really irritating sometimes.
pronouns: he/she/they
The rules don't really change from low to high level, just options. Taking the time to understand the low levels without the overhead of all the specifics and edge cases of the high levels reduces the amount of confusion about the actual rules. It is likely that if you had played a campaign up through level 15 where you can get Feeblemind, you'd already be experienced enough to answer that question yourself, but trying to figure it out right now—when you're just starting out—is, as you found, difficult. For Feeblemind specifically in fact, it appears there is no roll on the caster's part at all... the damage just happens, which is odd for spells, but completely understandable once you've cast hundreds of spells and read dozens of spell descriptions during play.
A better example might be Ice Knife. When you cast the spell, you make an attack roll against your target. In that case, you use your spell attack modifier (spell ability modifier + proficiency) to make the attack. In the OP's case, this would be a +11 (5 Charisma plus 6 Proficiency) vs. your opponent's AC of 25. If there is some circumstance that allows you to gain advantage on the attack roll (for example, if your target is Restrained), you would roll 2d20, and 11 to the higher of the two rolls. If, instead, there is some circumstance that causes you to have disadvantage on the attack roll (for example, if you are Restrained), you would roll 2d20, and add 11 to the lower of the two attack rolls. If there is some circumstance that causes you to have both advantage and disadvantage (for example, if you are both Restrained), you would roll normally and add 11 to the result. Bears mentioning that Advantage and Disadvantage always cancel each other out, and never stack. So if you have Advantage from two sources, you would only roll with Advantage once, and if you have Advantage from two sources and Disadvantage from one source (say your target is Blinded and you are both Restrained), you would not roll with Advantage, you would roll normally.
Now, after you resolve the attack roll with the target, then, regardless of whether you hit or miss, the ice shard explodes. At that point, the target and everything within five feet of them must make a Dexterity saving throw against your spell save DC. In the OP's case, this would be DC 19 (8 plus 5 Charisma plus 6 Proficiency). The same rules for Advantage apply here. If, for example, they have spell resistance, they would make the save with Advantage. If they are Restrained, they would make the save with Disadvantage. If they have spell resistance and are Restrained, they would make the save normally.
Bears noting that none of these rolls are contested. You are making your attack roll against their AC, and whether you hit or miss, they are then making their saving throw against the spell save's DC. So even if you make your attack roll and critically succeed or fail, then their saving throw DC remains at a 19. Likewise, regardless of whether they save or not, the attack roll resolves normally. The only time a roll is contested is if the rule explicitly states that it is contested, with language like "You make a Strength (Athletics) roll, contested by your opponent's Dexterity (Acrobatics) roll" or something like that.
It's almost true that an ability will always either have you make an attack roll, or force the enemy to make a saving throw, but never both. I think that in the 2024 rules, it's only not the case when it's a normal attack where you can activate an additional ability. (Stunning strike, topple weapon mastery, some of the smite-type spells, etc.)