My party recently defeated a boss, and they found a sending stone of his that connects back to a wizard's guild. They have been using the sending stone to impersonate the boss they defeated and attempt to learn information. However, they have been behaving somewhat erratically, and the wizard's guild is starting to suspect them.
A powerful wizard's guild would obviously have access to the 5th level divination spell Scrying, so my question is this:
If a wizard casts scrying on a creature that, unbeknownst to them, is dead, what happens? Does the creature automatically fail the save, or would it still roll the save? Does the invisible sensor created by the spell appear next to the corpse? Or does the spell fail because the target isn't valid.
I'm leaning more towards the option of the sensor appearing next to the corpse, but I figured I'd ask what the RAW say.
I would say that they auto fail the save and the sensor would appear next to the corpse. I don't remember if Scrying says it has to be a living creature but I do remember that it can use skin, blood, etc. So most likely it would work
As the dead boss has a wisdom of 0. The guild would probably have something that would also be a negative modifier to the save. Combined negative modifiers as mentioned the save would be an auto fail.
That brings about what the guild does next. Would the guild knowingly use the stone as a method to capture/entrap/etc. the PCs? Would the PCs know that they have been found out?
My party recently defeated a boss, and they found a sending stone of his that connects back to a wizard's guild. They have been using the sending stone to impersonate the boss they defeated and attempt to learn information. However, they have been behaving somewhat erratically, and the wizard's guild is starting to suspect them.
A powerful wizard's guild would obviously have access to the 5th level divination spell Scrying, so my question is this:
If a wizard casts scrying on a creature that, unbeknownst to them, is dead, what happens? Does the creature automatically fail the save, or would it still roll the save? Does the invisible sensor created by the spell appear next to the corpse? Or does the spell fail because the target isn't valid.
I'm leaning more towards the option of the sensor appearing next to the corpse, but I figured I'd ask what the RAW say.
Based on the 2024 rules, dead creatures are still creatures (*)
Object An object is a nonliving, distinct thing. Composite things, like buildings, comprise more than one object. See also “Breaking Objects.”
Creature Any being in the game, including a player’s character, is a creature. See also “Creature Type.”
Dead A dead creature has no Hit Points and can’t regain them unless it is first revived by magic such as the Raise Dead or Revivify spell. When such a spell is cast, the spirit knows who is casting it and can refuse. The spirit of a dead creature has left the body and departed for the Outer Planes, and reviving the creature requires calling the spirit back. [...]
To give a friendly counterpoint to tarodnet, I am of the school that dead creatures are objects. If you agree with that idea, then the spell would fail, as it only targets creatures. At this point the wizard would know the creature was either dead or on another plane.
But, if you do rule the dead are creatures, then I’d agree with the others that the sensor would appear next to the corpse.
As another solution, maybe the wizards are suspicious of the sending stones, so they would just use the sending spell to reach out. At which point it would fail because the target is dead.
I might rule that the Scrying fails because the creature is dead. That sort of thing has the bonus of leaving some uncertainty about WHY the scrying failed. Did the target pass the save? Is the target dead? Are they on another plane? Are they somehow blocked from divination magics? It ramps up the tension and raises suspicions, allowing for some more cat-and-mouse, rather than giving the game up immediately.
My party recently defeated a boss, and they found a sending stone of his that connects back to a wizard's guild. They have been using the sending stone to impersonate the boss they defeated and attempt to learn information. However, they have been behaving somewhat erratically, and the wizard's guild is starting to suspect them.
A powerful wizard's guild would obviously have access to the 5th level divination spell Scrying, so my question is this:
If a wizard casts scrying on a creature that, unbeknownst to them, is dead, what happens? Does the creature automatically fail the save, or would it still roll the save? Does the invisible sensor created by the spell appear next to the corpse? Or does the spell fail because the target isn't valid.
I'm leaning more towards the option of the sensor appearing next to the corpse, but I figured I'd ask what the RAW say.
Something else to keep in mind for this specific example is that Scrying can also be used to target a location the caster has seen before. If anyone in the guild has been to the late boss's home/headquarters/sanctum/etc., they could use the spell to observe what's going on in that location regardless of whether the boss himself is still alive or not.
To give a friendly counterpoint to tarodnet, I am of the school that dead creatures are objects. If you agree with that idea, then the spell would fail, as it only targets creatures. At this point the wizard would know the creature was either dead or on another plane.
That's a nice counterpoint, friendly adventurer Xalthu :)
Here's my (also friendly) piece of advice: it's fine if you rule that dead creatures are objects. Just stay consistent in how the game elements interact under that ruling.
Now its a well established fact that the majority of wizards who live in towers are also paranoid that someone else will steal their research. So their homes SHOULD be shielded against scrying and other divinations, unless someone figures out a weakness in the system. You can use this to retroactively explain why they were using sending stones in the first place. If they get suspicious, they would had dispatched someone to go there directly and check.
You can setup a reverse double trap. The Wizards being suspicious tell the players that one of the wizards might be compromised, gives them the location of another wizard's home to investigate. After all, they can't just Scry into each other's homes. No matter what they think, the players will certainly treat it like a trap. Then the next day the accused wizard uses the same sending stone to inform "the other wizard" that he thinks one of the other wizards are compromised, and gives them the location to investigate. That's when the confusion will set in.
How you handle this depends on your party's MO. They are very obviously traps.... but you can set the trap in some abandoned place, or just use the a real wizard's home if you're trying to get them in that direction. And now they're on a time crunch to give an answer as to what's happening at two locations. You can also plan ahead a bit, and if the players respond while pretending to be the Wizard, respond back saying to retrieve something that the party might already be seeking out. That can nudge them into a confrontation.
On the back end you can play this two ways. Either the Wizards know (as a group) and its a straight forward trap. OR, only a couple of the wizards are suspicious, and they're trying to trick the party into getting rid of their rivals. And if they do take down another wizard, I'm pretty sure the party may try to pretend to be both wizards for as long as they can to buy time.
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My party recently defeated a boss, and they found a sending stone of his that connects back to a wizard's guild. They have been using the sending stone to impersonate the boss they defeated and attempt to learn information. However, they have been behaving somewhat erratically, and the wizard's guild is starting to suspect them.
A powerful wizard's guild would obviously have access to the 5th level divination spell Scrying, so my question is this:
If a wizard casts scrying on a creature that, unbeknownst to them, is dead, what happens? Does the creature automatically fail the save, or would it still roll the save? Does the invisible sensor created by the spell appear next to the corpse? Or does the spell fail because the target isn't valid.
I'm leaning more towards the option of the sensor appearing next to the corpse, but I figured I'd ask what the RAW say.
I would say that they auto fail the save and the sensor would appear next to the corpse. I don't remember if Scrying says it has to be a living creature but I do remember that it can use skin, blood, etc. So most likely it would work
As the dead boss has a wisdom of 0. The guild would probably have something that would also be a negative modifier to the save. Combined negative modifiers as mentioned the save would be an auto fail.
That brings about what the guild does next. Would the guild knowingly use the stone as a method to capture/entrap/etc. the PCs? Would the PCs know that they have been found out?
Based on the 2024 rules, dead creatures are still creatures (*)
So if you agree with this ruling, a dead creature should be a valid target for Scrying. A similar question came up here: Question about Scrying on a dead person
(*) not everybody agrees with this interpretation, though:
- Can you twin true resurrection?
- Question about Planar Binding
To give a friendly counterpoint to tarodnet, I am of the school that dead creatures are objects.
If you agree with that idea, then the spell would fail, as it only targets creatures. At this point the wizard would know the creature was either dead or on another plane.
But, if you do rule the dead are creatures, then I’d agree with the others that the sensor would appear next to the corpse.
As another solution, maybe the wizards are suspicious of the sending stones, so they would just use the sending spell to reach out. At which point it would fail because the target is dead.
I might rule that the Scrying fails because the creature is dead. That sort of thing has the bonus of leaving some uncertainty about WHY the scrying failed. Did the target pass the save? Is the target dead? Are they on another plane? Are they somehow blocked from divination magics? It ramps up the tension and raises suspicions, allowing for some more cat-and-mouse, rather than giving the game up immediately.
Something else to keep in mind for this specific example is that Scrying can also be used to target a location the caster has seen before. If anyone in the guild has been to the late boss's home/headquarters/sanctum/etc., they could use the spell to observe what's going on in that location regardless of whether the boss himself is still alive or not.
pronouns: he/she/they
Excellent point! In this case, they will see a smashed window, a completely destroyed dining room, and a whole lot of soup everywhere
I would imagine that whether that's sufficient to raise their suspicions depends a lot on what this boss's general attitude toward soup was.
pronouns: he/she/they
That's a nice counterpoint, friendly adventurer Xalthu :)
Here's my (also friendly) piece of advice: it's fine if you rule that dead creatures are objects. Just stay consistent in how the game elements interact under that ruling.
Now its a well established fact that the majority of wizards who live in towers are also paranoid that someone else will steal their research. So their homes SHOULD be shielded against scrying and other divinations, unless someone figures out a weakness in the system. You can use this to retroactively explain why they were using sending stones in the first place. If they get suspicious, they would had dispatched someone to go there directly and check.
You can setup a reverse double trap. The Wizards being suspicious tell the players that one of the wizards might be compromised, gives them the location of another wizard's home to investigate. After all, they can't just Scry into each other's homes. No matter what they think, the players will certainly treat it like a trap. Then the next day the accused wizard uses the same sending stone to inform "the other wizard" that he thinks one of the other wizards are compromised, and gives them the location to investigate. That's when the confusion will set in.
How you handle this depends on your party's MO. They are very obviously traps.... but you can set the trap in some abandoned place, or just use the a real wizard's home if you're trying to get them in that direction. And now they're on a time crunch to give an answer as to what's happening at two locations. You can also plan ahead a bit, and if the players respond while pretending to be the Wizard, respond back saying to retrieve something that the party might already be seeking out. That can nudge them into a confrontation.
On the back end you can play this two ways. Either the Wizards know (as a group) and its a straight forward trap. OR, only a couple of the wizards are suspicious, and they're trying to trick the party into getting rid of their rivals. And if they do take down another wizard, I'm pretty sure the party may try to pretend to be both wizards for as long as they can to buy time.