I can't figure out if the "Fighting Style Feature" prerequisite means you can only obtain a fighting style the level you get the fighting style feature, or if you simply have to be at or above the level where you get the fighting style.
For clarification, I see this going to ways.
1) As a level one Fighter, you get the fighting style feature, letting you get a style. You can't get another one at level four, because you don't get the feature at level 4.
2) You get a fighting style at level one, and you can take another at level 4 because you have the feature from level 1.
The prerequisite "Fighting Style Feature" just means having that feature, which Fighters get at level 1 and some other classes get at level 2. Any time you are granted a feat, you can take any feat you meet the prerequisites for; once you have that feature, you meet that prerequisite, forever.
And the only way to gain a Fighting Style if you're in a class which doesn't have one is to multiclass into a class which has the Fighting Style feature, and be of sufficient level, correct?
And the only way to gain a Fighting Style if you're in a class which doesn't have one is to multiclass into a class which has the Fighting Style feature, and be of sufficient level, correct?
Correct.
There might perhaps be some alternative method in the future — perhaps a subclass that offers the feature even if its class doesn't, or something similar to "Fighting Initiate" from Tasha's Cauldron of Everything — but as of this writing there is nothing like that in official material for the 2024 rules.
And the only way to gain a Fighting Style if you're in a class which doesn't have one is to multiclass into a class which has the Fighting Style feature, and be of sufficient level, correct?
The con here is that not many classes who don't already have a fighting style can make good use of a fighting style. And theres also a feat that gives access to weapon masteries, which is considered more widely useful on more classes.
IMO, the Fighting Initiate feat from Tasha's Cauldron of Everything is not applicable in this case, since it says "you learn one Fighting Style option of your choice from the fighter class".
Under the 2024 rules, that "fighter class" is replaced by the 2024 Fighter, whose Fighting Style feats have a Prerequisite that isn't met unless you already have the Fighting Style feature.
IMO, the Fighting Initiate feat from Tasha's Cauldron of Everything is not applicable in this case, since it says "you learn one Fighting Style option of your choice from the fighter class".
Under the 2024 rules, that "fighter class" is replaced by the 2024 Fighter, whose Fighting Style feats have a Prerequisite that isn't met unless you already have the Fighting Style feature.
Yeah, I would agree. Fighting Initiate is one of those areas where an older option just isn't compatible with the 2024 rules.
Allowing it in a 2024-style game would essentially remove the class feature requirement for fighting style feats entirely, which clearly isn't intended.
Yeah, I would agree. Fighting Initiate is one of those areas where an older option just isn't compatible with the 2024 rules.
Allowing it in a 2024-style game would essentially remove the class feature requirement for fighting style feats entirely, which clearly isn't intended.
I'm not so sure that this is a limitation that is intentional. The fact that the feat from Tasha's doesn't work any more seems more like a unintended consequence of editorial changes than a balancing choice tbh.
I could well see adding a "gain a fighting style feat" part to either the Martial Weapon Training or the Weapon Master feats (or possibly even to both) seeing that they aren't all that impactful as they stand.
Yeah, I would agree. Fighting Initiate is one of those areas where an older option just isn't compatible with the 2024 rules.
Allowing it in a 2024-style game would essentially remove the class feature requirement for fighting style feats entirely, which clearly isn't intended.
I'm not so sure that this is a limitation that is intentional. The fact that the feat from Tasha's doesn't work any more seems more like a unintended consequence of editorial changes than a balancing choice tbh.
My point is that in the 2024 rules you can only take a Fighting Style feat if you have a specific class feature, but if you can take a feat that both satisfies that prerequisite and grants you a Fighting Style feat of your choice, then that prerequisite effectively doesn't exist. It seems unlikely that they would intentionally design in that prerequisite while also intending for it to be possible to essentially ignore it.
My point is that in the 2024 rules you can only take a Fighting Style feat if you have a specific class feature, but if you can take a feat that both satisfies that prerequisite and grants you a Fighting Style feat of your choice, then that prerequisite effectively doesn't exist. It seems unlikely that they would intentionally design in that prerequisite while also intending for it to be possible to essentially ignore it.
I might be misunderstanding you but it seems that your argument is that access to a fighting style is intentionally very restricted to a few classes and no other possible way and I'm not at all sure that that is the intention.
I'd say that it is similar to weapon masteries where you also is required to have a feature that unlocks its usage. Normally those features are class features but you can take the Weapon Master feat to gain access to a mastery too.
I'm honestly not sure if they realized how adding some of the Prerequisites would affect game features if you use pre-2024 book rules, but looking just at the 2024 PHB, it’s clear they’re there to prevent access to certain 2024 classes (for whatever design reasons)
Anyway, I agree with what you both said:
- @wagnarokkr: <<There might perhaps be some alternative method in the future — perhaps a subclass that offers the feature even if its class doesn't, or something similar to "Fighting Initiate" from Tasha's Cauldron of Everything — but as of this writing there is nothing like that in official material for the 2024 rules.>> - @Thezzaruz: <<I could well see adding a "gain a fighting style feat" part to either the Martial Weapon Training or the Weapon Master feats (or possibly even to both) seeing that they aren't all that impactful as they stand.>>
I'm honestly not sure if they realized how adding some of the Prerequisites would affect game features if you use pre-2024 book rules, but looking just at the 2024 PHB, it’s clear they’re there to prevent access to certain 2024 classes (for whatever design reasons)
I'm not at all sure that the intent was to prevent certain classes access but rather it looks to me that they wanted to prevent the Fighting Style feats from being an open pick for all "ASI or feat" picks. The fact that the change broke the feat from Tasha's looks more like an accident than an intentional balance choice.
I'm honestly not sure if they realized how adding some of the Prerequisites would affect game features if you use pre-2024 book rules, but looking just at the 2024 PHB, it’s clear they’re there to prevent access to certain 2024 classes (for whatever design reasons)
Anyway, I agree with what you both said:
- @wagnarokkr: <<There might perhaps be some alternative method in the future — perhaps a subclass that offers the feature even if its class doesn't, or something similar to "Fighting Initiate" from Tasha's Cauldron of Everything — but as of this writing there is nothing like that in official material for the 2024 rules.>> - @Thezzaruz: <<I could well see adding a "gain a fighting style feat" part to either the Martial Weapon Training or the Weapon Master feats (or possibly even to both) seeing that they aren't all that impactful as they stand.>>
I don't see that as intent, but a dependency problem with the software. Many books updated for 2024 are missing things inside DDB. That doesn't automatically make access within DDB the adjudicator on if access is RAW for the game rules. Remember that WotC explicitly stated that 2014 Subclasses are compatible with 2024 base classes, but DDB doesn't support that universally in the site's code base. Same with feats. But what looks like happened is that moving fighting styles to feats created a book keeping problem.
And even then... we also know the rule books were rushed out the door, and contain several major contradictions and errors. That's why errata exists. But lack of errata doesn't mean the its correct either. It just means it hasn't been addressed. Sage advice might address it, but sometimes sage advise can miss the point of the original question.
My point is that in the 2024 rules you can only take a Fighting Style feat if you have a specific class feature, but if you can take a feat that both satisfies that prerequisite and grants you a Fighting Style feat of your choice, then that prerequisite effectively doesn't exist. It seems unlikely that they would intentionally design in that prerequisite while also intending for it to be possible to essentially ignore it.
Not technically. If the feat just gave you a Fighting Style feat (woo, a feat that gives you a feat), you have one Fighting Style feat, but no ability to acquire a second (which you probably won't want to do anyway). In addition, a Fighting Style from a class feature can be changed every level, there is no necessity to give the same "flexibility" to a Fighting Style provided by a Feat. You can't normally change out feats without something to the effect of a Wish spell, unless I am forgetting something.
Still, for all practical purposes, you are correct. I do feel like there will be a D&D 5.24.5 revision with a Tasha's style publication that could introduce something like removing the class feature requirement. Just making it a General Feat will make it a level 4+ ability rather than a level 1 or 2 ability.
I'm honestly not sure if they realized how adding some of the Prerequisites would affect game features if you use pre-2024 book rules, but looking just at the 2024 PHB, it’s clear they’re there to prevent access to certain 2024 classes (for whatever design reasons)
Anyway, I agree with what you both said:
- @wagnarokkr: <<There might perhaps be some alternative method in the future — perhaps a subclass that offers the feature even if its class doesn't, or something similar to "Fighting Initiate" from Tasha's Cauldron of Everything — but as of this writing there is nothing like that in official material for the 2024 rules.>> - @Thezzaruz: <<I could well see adding a "gain a fighting style feat" part to either the Martial Weapon Training or the Weapon Master feats (or possibly even to both) seeing that they aren't all that impactful as they stand.>>
I don't see that as intent, but a dependency problem with the software. Many books updated for 2024 are missing things inside DDB. That doesn't automatically make access within DDB the adjudicator on if access is RAW for the game rules. Remember that WotC explicitly stated that 2014 Subclasses are compatible with 2024 base classes, but DDB doesn't support that universally in the site's code base. Same with feats. But what looks like happened is that moving fighting styles to feats created a book keeping problem. [...]
I want to believe they prioritize printed rules over future issues with software implementation, but who knows?
When you play D&D with the 2024 Player’s Handbook, it replaces all rules, classes, subclasses, spells, feats, equipment, species, and backgrounds in the 2014 version of the book. There are a few exceptions; the following options don’t appear in the 2024 book and are still usable from 2014 [...]
Any subclass, spell, or feat from Xanathar’s Guide to Everything or Tasha’s Cauldron of Everything that appears in this book replaces the version that appears in the Everything book.
In addition, a Fighting Style from a class feature can be changed every level, there is no necessity to give the same "flexibility" to a Fighting Style provided by a Feat. You can't normally change out feats without something to the effect of a Wish spell, unless I am forgetting something.
Yes, though it's worth noting that this is unique to the Fighter class's version of the feature and not something applied to fighting style feats in general.
In addition, a Fighting Style from a class feature can be changed every level, there is no necessity to give the same "flexibility" to a Fighting Style provided by a Feat. You can't normally change out feats without something to the effect of a Wish spell, unless I am forgetting something.
Yes, though it's worth noting that this is unique to the Fighter class's version of the feature and not something applied to fighting style feats in general.
Oops. Nice catch. I didn't realize that the different class features with the same name worked mechanically differently apart from Paladin and Ranger having extra options. I really dislike class exclusivity. Everyone's fighting style from a class should work the same (with Druidic Warrior and Blessed Warrior having additional requirements, possibly consolidated into one style).
From 2024 phb, all fighting style feats say "Fighting Style Feat (Prerequisite: Fighting Style Feature)"
The Fighting Style Feature is granted via certain classes. Like fighter, ranger, paladin.
I think the idea of the prequisite is to.keep fighting styles to martial classes. Which is good i guess. But the workaroujf is to dip one level in fighter. And then you dont even need the feat. Cause fighters get a fighting style at level 1.
The only situations i see this coming into play is if you play a rogue, which dont get fighting syles, you need one level.of fighter which gives you a style, and you dont need the feat
My point is that in the 2024 rules you can only take a Fighting Style feat if you have a specific class feature, but if you can take a feat that both satisfies that prerequisite and grants you a Fighting Style feat of your choice, then that prerequisite effectively doesn't exist. It seems unlikely that they would intentionally design in that prerequisite while also intending for it to be possible to essentially ignore it.
The feat should work, because specific beats general, but it wouldn't allow acquiring any additional fighting styles, because it doesn't provide the feature.
Whether they're going to officially include such a feat in a future 2024-rules supplement is unlikely (it would, under the current model, have to provide a stat bump, and thus be better than taking a fighting style directly), but if you're running with Tasha's, it should work.
(If they really want to shut it down in 24 rules, they should include a feat of the same name with different abilities, thus killing the back-compatible route, but I don't think it's a big enough deal to bother.)
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I can't figure out if the "Fighting Style Feature" prerequisite means you can only obtain a fighting style the level you get the fighting style feature, or if you simply have to be at or above the level where you get the fighting style.
For clarification, I see this going to ways.
1) As a level one Fighter, you get the fighting style feature, letting you get a style. You can't get another one at level four, because you don't get the feature at level 4.
2) You get a fighting style at level one, and you can take another at level 4 because you have the feature from level 1.
#2 is correct.
The prerequisite "Fighting Style Feature" just means having that feature, which Fighters get at level 1 and some other classes get at level 2. Any time you are granted a feat, you can take any feat you meet the prerequisites for; once you have that feature, you meet that prerequisite, forever.
pronouns: he/she/they
And the only way to gain a Fighting Style if you're in a class which doesn't have one is to multiclass into a class which has the Fighting Style feature, and be of sufficient level, correct?
Correct.
There might perhaps be some alternative method in the future — perhaps a subclass that offers the feature even if its class doesn't, or something similar to "Fighting Initiate" from Tasha's Cauldron of Everything — but as of this writing there is nothing like that in official material for the 2024 rules.
pronouns: he/she/they
https://www.dndbeyond.com/feats/451309-fighting-initiate This is a feat that gives you access to fighting styles, and includes one as part of the feat.
The con here is that not many classes who don't already have a fighting style can make good use of a fighting style. And theres also a feat that gives access to weapon masteries, which is considered more widely useful on more classes.
IMO, the Fighting Initiate feat from Tasha's Cauldron of Everything is not applicable in this case, since it says "you learn one Fighting Style option of your choice from the fighter class".
Under the 2024 rules, that "fighter class" is replaced by the 2024 Fighter, whose Fighting Style feats have a Prerequisite that isn't met unless you already have the Fighting Style feature.
(related thread: Fighting intitiate)
Yeah, I would agree. Fighting Initiate is one of those areas where an older option just isn't compatible with the 2024 rules.
Allowing it in a 2024-style game would essentially remove the class feature requirement for fighting style feats entirely, which clearly isn't intended.
pronouns: he/she/they
I'm not so sure that this is a limitation that is intentional. The fact that the feat from Tasha's doesn't work any more seems more like a unintended consequence of editorial changes than a balancing choice tbh.
I could well see adding a "gain a fighting style feat" part to either the Martial Weapon Training or the Weapon Master feats (or possibly even to both) seeing that they aren't all that impactful as they stand.
My point is that in the 2024 rules you can only take a Fighting Style feat if you have a specific class feature, but if you can take a feat that both satisfies that prerequisite and grants you a Fighting Style feat of your choice, then that prerequisite effectively doesn't exist. It seems unlikely that they would intentionally design in that prerequisite while also intending for it to be possible to essentially ignore it.
pronouns: he/she/they
I might be misunderstanding you but it seems that your argument is that access to a fighting style is intentionally very restricted to a few classes and no other possible way and I'm not at all sure that that is the intention.
I'd say that it is similar to weapon masteries where you also is required to have a feature that unlocks its usage. Normally those features are class features but you can take the Weapon Master feat to gain access to a mastery too.
I'm honestly not sure if they realized how adding some of the Prerequisites would affect game features if you use pre-2024 book rules, but looking just at the 2024 PHB, it’s clear they’re there to prevent access to certain 2024 classes (for whatever design reasons)
Anyway, I agree with what you both said:
- @wagnarokkr: <<There might perhaps be some alternative method in the future — perhaps a subclass that offers the feature even if its class doesn't, or something similar to "Fighting Initiate" from Tasha's Cauldron of Everything — but as of this writing there is nothing like that in official material for the 2024 rules.>>
- @Thezzaruz: <<I could well see adding a "gain a fighting style feat" part to either the Martial Weapon Training or the Weapon Master feats (or possibly even to both) seeing that they aren't all that impactful as they stand.>>
I'm not at all sure that the intent was to prevent certain classes access but rather it looks to me that they wanted to prevent the Fighting Style feats from being an open pick for all "ASI or feat" picks. The fact that the change broke the feat from Tasha's looks more like an accident than an intentional balance choice.
I don't see that as intent, but a dependency problem with the software. Many books updated for 2024 are missing things inside DDB. That doesn't automatically make access within DDB the adjudicator on if access is RAW for the game rules. Remember that WotC explicitly stated that 2014 Subclasses are compatible with 2024 base classes, but DDB doesn't support that universally in the site's code base. Same with feats. But what looks like happened is that moving fighting styles to feats created a book keeping problem.
And even then... we also know the rule books were rushed out the door, and contain several major contradictions and errors. That's why errata exists. But lack of errata doesn't mean the its correct either. It just means it hasn't been addressed. Sage advice might address it, but sometimes sage advise can miss the point of the original question.
Not technically. If the feat just gave you a Fighting Style feat (woo, a feat that gives you a feat), you have one Fighting Style feat, but no ability to acquire a second (which you probably won't want to do anyway). In addition, a Fighting Style from a class feature can be changed every level, there is no necessity to give the same "flexibility" to a Fighting Style provided by a Feat. You can't normally change out feats without something to the effect of a Wish spell, unless I am forgetting something.
Still, for all practical purposes, you are correct. I do feel like there will be a D&D 5.24.5 revision with a Tasha's style publication that could introduce something like removing the class feature requirement. Just making it a General Feat will make it a level 4+ ability rather than a level 1 or 2 ability.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
I want to believe they prioritize printed rules over future issues with software implementation, but who knows?
Regarding compatibility, I remember this information WotC gave us in Updates in the Player’s Handbook (2024) | Dungeons & Dragons
The next threads are interesting too:
- Rules Summary: Using 2014 character options on 2024 characters - General Discussion
- Links to videos and sites explaining PHB compatibility for subclasses, feats, etc.: 2024 Core Books Content Creator Previews Index Thread
Yes, though it's worth noting that this is unique to the Fighter class's version of the feature and not something applied to fighting style feats in general.
pronouns: he/she/they
Oops. Nice catch. I didn't realize that the different class features with the same name worked mechanically differently apart from Paladin and Ranger having extra options. I really dislike class exclusivity. Everyone's fighting style from a class should work the same (with Druidic Warrior and Blessed Warrior having additional requirements, possibly consolidated into one style).
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
Maybe it's a little gift for Fighters? Kind of like how Wizards can replace cantrips after Long Rest?
The Weapon Mastery feat is also different between classes, and I was surprised to see the next one: 2024 Weapon Masteries - Ranger/Paladin vs Fighter
From 2024 phb, all fighting style feats say "Fighting Style Feat (Prerequisite: Fighting Style Feature)"
The Fighting Style Feature is granted via certain classes. Like fighter, ranger, paladin.
I think the idea of the prequisite is to.keep fighting styles to martial classes. Which is good i guess. But the workaroujf is to dip one level in fighter. And then you dont even need the feat. Cause fighters get a fighting style at level 1.
The only situations i see this coming into play is if you play a rogue, which dont get fighting syles, you need one level.of fighter which gives you a style, and you dont need the feat
The feat should work, because specific beats general, but it wouldn't allow acquiring any additional fighting styles, because it doesn't provide the feature.
Whether they're going to officially include such a feat in a future 2024-rules supplement is unlikely (it would, under the current model, have to provide a stat bump, and thus be better than taking a fighting style directly), but if you're running with Tasha's, it should work.
(If they really want to shut it down in 24 rules, they should include a feat of the same name with different abilities, thus killing the back-compatible route, but I don't think it's a big enough deal to bother.)