Is there a mechanical difference between adding a bonus/modifier and adding a bonus "equal to" another bonus/modifier?
At level 7, Oath of the Watchers Paladin gets Aura of the Sentinel. The aura specifies, "When you and any creatures of your choice within 10 feet of you roll initiative, you all gain a bonus to initiative equal to your proficiency bonus."
I read that as a miscellaneous bonus that shares it's value with your proficiency, not actually adding your proficiency bonus. If that's the case, then your initiative should also receive a bonus from Jack of All Trades if you were to take two levels of Bard.
If your DM allows UA material, you would also be able to benefit from Rabbitfolk's Hare-Trigger (with Aura of the Sentinel, not Jack of All Trades), which states, "You add your proficiency bonus to your initiative rolls."
Only one bonus is added to your character sheet through dndbeyond, though. Is there something in the rules I'm missing, or are they the same mechanically, just different wording?
There's no general prohibition on two features both adding your proficiency bonus to something as a bonus: your proficiency bonus isn't the bonus source, the feature is. If Class 1 had "Ability A: add your proficiency bonus to your melee attacks" and Class 2 had "Different Ability B: add your proficiency bonus to your melee attacks", those are two different features and you'd get the full benefit of both, despite them referencing the same PB value to set their number.Edit: Huh, I guess features that add PB to things do have an extra restriction that they can't stack, see post #5 below. It's no different from having two or more features that tell you to add an ability score modifier to your attacks, such as with a Hexblade who also has Lifedrinker adding Charisma twice.
That said, with skill proficiency stuff specifically, a lot of those features have language like is found in Jack of all Trades, to make sure that PB only gets added to a skill from one feature, not multiple:
Jack of All Trades
Starting at 2nd level, you can add half your proficiency bonus, rounded down, to any ability check you make that doesn’t already include your proficiency bonus.
Now, I've argued in the past that we need to clarify whether adding half your PB (Jack of All Trades, Remarkable Athlete, etc.) to a skill counts as "including your proficiency bonus" or not. See Reliable Talent... only on regular skills (1x proficiency)? If also applies to expertise skills (2x proficiency), then why not on jack of all trades skills (.5x proficiency)? There's some inconsistent JC rulings, that you can form your own opinion on in light of the text...
... but really, I don't think there's an intentional significance to splitting the hair between "add your proficiency bonus" and "add a bonus equal to your proficiency bonus."
Only one bonus is added to your character sheet through dndbeyond, though. Is there something in the rules I'm missing, or are they the same mechanically, just different wording?
Chicken Champ already covered why Aura of the Sentinel and Jack of All Trades don't stack (it's because Jack of All Trades says so; the equivalent ability on Fighter Champions says the same thing). If you want an example of Sentinel interacting more beneficially with a proficiency-based ability, Reliable Talent (Rogue L11) will work with it to make sure Initiative rolls of less than 10 count as 10.
There's no general prohibition on two features both adding your proficiency bonus to something as a bonus: your proficiency bonus isn't the bonus source, the feature is. If Class 1 had "Ability A: add your proficiency bonus to your melee attacks" and Class 2 had "Different Ability B: add your proficiency bonus to your melee attacks", those are two different features and you'd get the full benefit of both, despite them referencing the same PB value to set their number. It's no different from having two or more features that tell you to add an ability score modifier to your attacks, such as with a Hexblade who also has Lifedrinker adding Charisma twice.
...
Wait what?
What does Chapter 1's sentence "Your proficiency bonus can’t be added to a single die roll or other number more than once." mean then? Or for that matter, the rest of the paragraph ending the description of proficiency bonus?
In fact, the chapter 7 PB rules seem to coincide at least well enough with the chapter 1 rules that I wouldn't doubt they're trying to convey the same meaning.
There's no general prohibition on two features both adding your proficiency bonus to something as a bonus: your proficiency bonus isn't the bonus source, the feature is. If Class 1 had "Ability A: add your proficiency bonus to your melee attacks" and Class 2 had "Different Ability B: add your proficiency bonus to your melee attacks", those are two different features and you'd get the full benefit of both, despite them referencing the same PB value to set their number. It's no different from having two or more features that tell you to add an ability score modifier to your attacks, such as with a Hexblade who also has Lifedrinker adding Charisma twice.
...
Wait what?
What does Chapter 1's sentence "Your proficiency bonus can’t be added to a single die roll or other number more than once." mean then? Or for that matter, the rest of the paragraph ending the description of proficiency bonus?
Edit: cut some of the quote.
Ooh, I didn't know about that quote, good correction!
That's interesting, I'd never noticed that PB is treated differently from ability score modifiers. I'm not sure if there are any possible builds out there that would actually put that into question, because like I mentioned, all of the skill proficiency/expertise features themselves do a pretty good job of limiting PB stacking within the feature itself. Seems like unnecessary language in the PB section, honestly, and like they wrote themselves into the corner on how they're allowed to structure damage bonus abilities in the future now that Hexblade's Curse exists... (Ranger's Companion, but what else is out there?). Hmmm...
To answer the original question, I can't be authoritative on it, but I would guess the wording "a bonus equal to your proficiency bonus" is equivalent to adding your PB to the roll and is stated in such an awkward way because you are adding the bonus to something that you can't normally be proficient in.
Chapter 1 tells us
Your proficiency bonus applies to many of the numbers you’ll be recording on your character sheet:
Attack rolls using weapons you’re proficient with
Attack rolls with spells you cast
Ability checks using skills you’re proficient in
Ability checks using tools you’re proficient with
Saving throws you’re proficient in
Saving throw DCs for spells you cast (explained in each spellcasting class)
So my thought is that the "bonus equal to your proficiency bonus" wording was designed to tell you that it was OK to add your PB to the roll even though it isn't something you can be proficient in. But I would still consider the rest of the text around PB to apply: namely that you can only add it once. It is not a misc modifier, it is your PB, just with special permission to use it in a new place.
Hopefully, the change in wording is a move toward less confusing language in newer sources.
That's interesting, I'd never noticed that PB is treated differently from ability score modifiers. I'm not sure if there are any possible builds out there that would actually put that into question, because like I mentioned, all of the skill proficiency/expertise features themselves do a pretty good job of limiting PB stacking within the feature itself.
I think the reason this wording is in here is that it is (quite) feasable to find multiple sources of proficiency for things such as skills (background, race, and, class) so they want it to be abundantly clear that a wood elf pirate cleric isn't adding 6 plus their wisdom modifier to their perception rolls at level 1. Without this text, one might be confused on a question like that.
It's worth pointing out that while your proficiency bonus cannot be added more than once to a roll - if you are an ally of the Paladin and your are in the aura - you are not adding your proficiency bonus to the roll - you are adding their proficiency bonus to the roll. In the vast majority of cases the number will be the same - but the ownership is important.
It's worth pointing out that while your proficiency bonus cannot be added more than once to a roll - if you are an ally of the Paladin and your are in the aura - you are not adding your proficiency bonus to the roll - you are adding their proficiency bonus to the roll. In the vast majority of cases the number will be the same - but the ownership is important.
Indeed. A team of 4 such paladins each adds +12 to their initiative rolls - each proficiency bonus is added only once.
It's worth pointing out that while your proficiency bonus cannot be added more than once to a roll - if you are an ally of the Paladin and your are in the aura - you are not adding your proficiency bonus to the roll - you are adding their proficiency bonus to the roll. In the vast majority of cases the number will be the same - but the ownership is important.
Good point that you can stack other people's PB on top of your own, but doesn't really address stacking your own PB, and whether special restrictions were needed. A Watchers Paladin 7/Champion Fighter 7 will not get to add half their proficiency bonus to their Initiative checks, because their Aura of the Sentinel will already be adding their full proficiency bonus. That scenario was already full covered by the wording of Remarkable Athlete itself, though, the extra language in the PB section itself isn't doing any work there.
The language on skill proficiencies already sufficiently protected against the possibility that a player might think that they can be double- or triple-proficient in a skill: "In either case, proficiency in a skill means an individual can add his or her proficiency bonus to ability checks that involve that skill. Without proficiency in the skill, the individual makes a normal ability check." I don't think that PB section needed anything else.
I think the OP argues that "a(n implied misc) bonus to your initiative (that happens to be) equal to your proficiency bonus" isn't "adding your proficiency bonus" and so both would still apply. I disagree, but I don't really have conclusive evidence for my stance, and can only offer my thoughts summarized in post #7.
I think the OP argues that "a(n implied misc) bonus to your initiative (that happens to be) equal to your proficiency bonus" isn't "adding your proficiency bonus" and so both would still apply. I disagree, but I don't really have conclusive evidence for my stance, and can only offer my thoughts summarized in post #7.
That is indeed my argument, and I think your points in post #7 are a good counterargument. That being said, it seems like there is nothing conclusive one way or the other, and should be left up to the DM. As a DM, I'd allow it in my game, because as DxJxC stated, "It is very niche, doesn't really break anything, and seems like it would stack for allies, so why not allow it for the paladin?" I would completely understand a DM not allowing it, though.
Only one bonus is added to your character sheet through dndbeyond, though. Is there something in the rules I'm missing, or are they the same mechanically, just different wording?
Chicken Champ already covered why Aura of the Sentinel and Jack of All Trades don't stack (it's because Jack of All Trades says so; the equivalent ability on Fighter Champions says the same thing). If you want an example of Sentinel interacting more beneficially with a proficiency-based ability, Reliable Talent (Rogue L11) will work with it to make sure Initiative rolls of less than 10 count as 10.
Interestingly enough, if my interpretation of "bonus equal to proficiency bonus" not being the same as proficiency bonus is accurate, then you couldn't benefit from Reliable Talent with Aura of the Sentinel. If I'm wrong, then it's a cool Watcher Paladin/Assassin Rogue ability to have for high level games.
It's worth pointing out that while your proficiency bonus cannot be added more than once to a roll - if you are an ally of the Paladin and your are in the aura - you are not adding your proficiency bonus to the roll - you are adding their proficiency bonus to the roll. In the vast majority of cases the number will be the same - but the ownership is important.
Good point! A Bard or a Champion Fighter could still benefit from a Watcher Paladin in this sense. Can Paladins benefit from each other's auras? As quindraco states, "A team of 4 such paladins each adds +12 to their initiative rolls - each proficiency bonus is added only once." I thought there was a ruling that you can only benefit from one of the same aura. If not, then a team of 4 Paladins could also all ping Aura of Protection off each other and have ridiculous saving throws.
Can Paladins benefit from each other's auras? As quindraco states, "A team of 4 such paladins each adds +12 to their initiative rolls - each proficiency bonus is added only once." I thought there was a ruling that you can only benefit from one of the same aura. If not, then a team of 4 Paladins could also all ping Aura of Protection off each other and have ridiculous saving throws.
There is. In the DMG (somewhere). Basically, any 2 static effects with the same name can't stack.
There is. In the DMG (somewhere). Basically, any 2 static effects with the same name can't stack.
DMG Chapter 8, right above "chases" (man the DMG has poor bookmarks!)
Combining Game Effects
Different game features can affect a target at the same time. But when two or more game features have the same name, only the effects of one of them—the most potent one—apply while the durations of the effects overlap. For example, if a target is ignited by a fire elemental’s Fire Form trait, the ongoing fire damage doesn’t increase if the burning target is subjected to that trait again. Game features include spells, class features, feats, racial traits, monster abilities, and magic items. See the related rule in the “Combining Magical Effects” section of chapter 10 in the Player’s Handbook.
It's worth pointing out that while your proficiency bonus cannot be added more than once to a roll - if you are an ally of the Paladin and your are in the aura - you are not adding your proficiency bonus to the roll - you are adding their proficiency bonus to the roll. In the vast majority of cases the number will be the same - but the ownership is important.
Indeed. A team of 4 such paladins each adds +12 to their initiative rolls - each proficiency bonus is added only once.
Unfortunately, this is not the case. A paladin can only benefit from one of the auras, as you can't stack effects.
I cant weigh in either way for sure as I would also only be speculating but I also would land in the camp of "add a bonus equal to your proficiency bonus" is not the same as "add your proficiency bonus". I agree it does no seem overly game breaking and, as stated earlier, when classes like hexblade can stack the charisma modifier multiple times for damage from different sources, that seems a stronger use of stacking.
I also came to this thread as I thought the idea of a Rabbitfolk Oath of the Watchers Paladin from a design and thematic standpoint seemed awesome only to be disappointed that their racial and the level 7 feature of OotW could possibly be redundant. Let me make my Watership Down style rabbit warrior who protects the realm from extraplanar forces please! 😁
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Is there a mechanical difference between adding a bonus/modifier and adding a bonus "equal to" another bonus/modifier?
At level 7, Oath of the Watchers Paladin gets Aura of the Sentinel. The aura specifies, "When you and any creatures of your choice within 10 feet of you roll initiative, you all gain a bonus to initiative equal to your proficiency bonus."
I read that as a miscellaneous bonus that shares it's value with your proficiency, not actually adding your proficiency bonus. If that's the case, then your initiative should also receive a bonus from Jack of All Trades if you were to take two levels of Bard.
If your DM allows UA material, you would also be able to benefit from Rabbitfolk's Hare-Trigger (with Aura of the Sentinel, not Jack of All Trades), which states, "You add your proficiency bonus to your initiative rolls."
Only one bonus is added to your character sheet through dndbeyond, though. Is there something in the rules I'm missing, or are they the same mechanically, just different wording?
There's no general prohibition on two features both adding your proficiency bonus to something as a bonus: your proficiency bonus isn't the bonus source, the feature is. If Class 1 had "Ability A: add your proficiency bonus to your melee attacks" and Class 2 had "Different Ability B: add your proficiency bonus to your melee attacks", those are two different features and you'd get the full benefit of both, despite them referencing the same PB value to set their number.Edit: Huh, I guess features that add PB to things do have an extra restriction that they can't stack, see post #5 below.It's no different fromhaving two or more features that tell you to add an ability score modifier to your attacks, such as with a Hexblade who also has Lifedrinker adding Charisma twice.That said, with skill proficiency stuff specifically, a lot of those features have language like is found in Jack of all Trades, to make sure that PB only gets added to a skill from one feature, not multiple:
Now, I've argued in the past that we need to clarify whether adding half your PB (Jack of All Trades, Remarkable Athlete, etc.) to a skill counts as "including your proficiency bonus" or not. See Reliable Talent... only on regular skills (1x proficiency)? If also applies to expertise skills (2x proficiency), then why not on jack of all trades skills (.5x proficiency)? There's some inconsistent JC rulings, that you can form your own opinion on in light of the text...
... but really, I don't think there's an intentional significance to splitting the hair between "add your proficiency bonus" and "add a bonus equal to your proficiency bonus."
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Chicken Champ already covered why Aura of the Sentinel and Jack of All Trades don't stack (it's because Jack of All Trades says so; the equivalent ability on Fighter Champions says the same thing). If you want an example of Sentinel interacting more beneficially with a proficiency-based ability, Reliable Talent (Rogue L11) will work with it to make sure Initiative rolls of less than 10 count as 10.
Wait what?
What does Chapter 1's sentence "Your proficiency bonus can’t be added to a single die roll or other number more than once." mean then? Or for that matter, the rest of the paragraph ending the description of proficiency bonus?
Edit: cut some of the quote.
In fact, the chapter 7 PB rules seem to coincide at least well enough with the chapter 1 rules that I wouldn't doubt they're trying to convey the same meaning.
Ooh, I didn't know about that quote, good correction!
That's interesting, I'd never noticed that PB is treated differently from ability score modifiers. I'm not sure if there are any possible builds out there that would actually put that into question, because like I mentioned, all of the skill proficiency/expertise features themselves do a pretty good job of limiting PB stacking within the feature itself. Seems like unnecessary language in the PB section, honestly, and like they wrote themselves into the corner on how they're allowed to structure damage bonus abilities in the future now that Hexblade's Curse exists... (Ranger's Companion, but what else is out there?). Hmmm...
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
To answer the original question, I can't be authoritative on it, but I would guess the wording "a bonus equal to your proficiency bonus" is equivalent to adding your PB to the roll and is stated in such an awkward way because you are adding the bonus to something that you can't normally be proficient in.
Chapter 1 tells us
So my thought is that the "bonus equal to your proficiency bonus" wording was designed to tell you that it was OK to add your PB to the roll even though it isn't something you can be proficient in. But I would still consider the rest of the text around PB to apply: namely that you can only add it once. It is not a misc modifier, it is your PB, just with special permission to use it in a new place.
Hopefully, the change in wording is a move toward less confusing language in newer sources.
I think the reason this wording is in here is that it is (quite) feasable to find multiple sources of proficiency for things such as skills (background, race, and, class) so they want it to be abundantly clear that a wood elf pirate cleric isn't adding 6 plus their wisdom modifier to their perception rolls at level 1. Without this text, one might be confused on a question like that.
It's worth pointing out that while your proficiency bonus cannot be added more than once to a roll - if you are an ally of the Paladin and your are in the aura - you are not adding your proficiency bonus to the roll - you are adding their proficiency bonus to the roll. In the vast majority of cases the number will be the same - but the ownership is important.
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Indeed. A team of 4 such paladins each adds +12 to their initiative rolls - each proficiency bonus is added only once.
Good point that you can stack other people's PB on top of your own, but doesn't really address stacking your own PB, and whether special restrictions were needed. A Watchers Paladin 7/Champion Fighter 7 will not get to add half their proficiency bonus to their Initiative checks, because their Aura of the Sentinel will already be adding their full proficiency bonus. That scenario was already full covered by the wording of Remarkable Athlete itself, though, the extra language in the PB section itself isn't doing any work there.
The language on skill proficiencies already sufficiently protected against the possibility that a player might think that they can be double- or triple-proficient in a skill: "In either case, proficiency in a skill means an individual can add his or her proficiency bonus to ability checks that involve that skill. Without proficiency in the skill, the individual makes a normal ability check." I don't think that PB section needed anything else.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
I think the OP argues that "a(n implied misc) bonus to your initiative (that happens to be) equal to your proficiency bonus" isn't "adding your proficiency bonus" and so both would still apply. I disagree, but I don't really have conclusive evidence for my stance, and can only offer my thoughts summarized in post #7.
I think I'm on team "bonus = proficiency is not proficiency bonus."
It is very niche, doesn't really break anything, and seems like it would stack for allies, so why not allow it for the paladin?
Hey, thanks for the replies!
That is indeed my argument, and I think your points in post #7 are a good counterargument. That being said, it seems like there is nothing conclusive one way or the other, and should be left up to the DM. As a DM, I'd allow it in my game, because as DxJxC stated, "It is very niche, doesn't really break anything, and seems like it would stack for allies, so why not allow it for the paladin?" I would completely understand a DM not allowing it, though.
Interestingly enough, if my interpretation of "bonus equal to proficiency bonus" not being the same as proficiency bonus is accurate, then you couldn't benefit from Reliable Talent with Aura of the Sentinel. If I'm wrong, then it's a cool Watcher Paladin/Assassin Rogue ability to have for high level games.
Good point! A Bard or a Champion Fighter could still benefit from a Watcher Paladin in this sense. Can Paladins benefit from each other's auras? As quindraco states, "A team of 4 such paladins each adds +12 to their initiative rolls - each proficiency bonus is added only once." I thought there was a ruling that you can only benefit from one of the same aura. If not, then a team of 4 Paladins could also all ping Aura of Protection off each other and have ridiculous saving throws.
There is. In the DMG (somewhere). Basically, any 2 static effects with the same name can't stack.
DMG Chapter 8, right above "chases" (man the DMG has poor bookmarks!)
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Unfortunately, this is not the case. A paladin can only benefit from one of the auras, as you can't stack effects.
I cant weigh in either way for sure as I would also only be speculating but I also would land in the camp of "add a bonus equal to your proficiency bonus" is not the same as "add your proficiency bonus". I agree it does no seem overly game breaking and, as stated earlier, when classes like hexblade can stack the charisma modifier multiple times for damage from different sources, that seems a stronger use of stacking.
I also came to this thread as I thought the idea of a Rabbitfolk Oath of the Watchers Paladin from a design and thematic standpoint seemed awesome only to be disappointed that their racial and the level 7 feature of OotW could possibly be redundant. Let me make my Watership Down style rabbit warrior who protects the realm from extraplanar forces please! 😁