When a monster has the trait Legendary Resistance, the trait clearly states that the monster that fails a saving throw chooses to succeed instead. Does the monster know what will happen if it fails the saving throw? A monster would probably rather use a legendary resistance against the monk's quivering palm than the bard's vicious mockery, but at the time of the saving throw, would they know which effects are the dangerous ones? Also, does a lack of knowledge that a saving throw is being made prevent legendary resistance from being used, such as with subtle spells like suggestion?
Plus, the monster usually has some signs of what they might be saving against. A spellcaster chants, a fireball appears. They fail the save, but don’t care because 8d6 isn’t much at that point in the game. A monk walks up and punches, might be a bit harder, they might not know exactly if they are getting knocked back or stunning striked. Fortunately, creatures with Legendary Resistance tend to be pretty knowledgeable and experienced, so they might be able to infer what they might be getting hit with based on what the character looks like they can do and prior experiences. For example, the leaders in the campaign I’m running have quite a bit of experience both in general and with the players. They are going to know what they are saving against. The adult white dragon with relatively poor Int that spent its time isolated and unthreatened by adventures in the far north might not be so sure.
The point of legendary resistance is to avoid battle ending effects and draw out big battles. So this would be a time when a little meta knowledge is appropriate
Lots of people are saying that Legendary resistance is a metagame thing, but the trait states outright that the monster chooses to use the trait.
Yes. And the human playing the game at the table chooses on behalf of that monster using whatever basis for that decision is going to result in the most fun game.
Lots of people are saying that Legendary resistance is a metagame thing, but the trait states outright that the monster chooses to use the trait.
Yes. And the human playing the game at the table chooses on behalf of that monster using whatever basis for that decision is going to result in the most fun game.
But the monster has to stay in character, too, right? The only way for a monster to make all the best choices with Legendary Resistance is for that monster to be informed about the effects of a failed save. And if a monster is allowed to expend a Legendary Resistance knowing the effect of a failed save, then a fighter should be able to do the same with Indomitable. But abilities are activated by choice, both explicitly occur on a failed save, and neither requires the user to do it "before the effects are applied".
Lots of people are saying that Legendary resistance is a metagame thing, but the trait states outright that the monster chooses to use the trait.
Yes. And the human playing the game at the table chooses on behalf of that monster using whatever basis for that decision is going to result in the most fun game.
But the monster has to stay in character, too, right? The only way for a monster to make all the best choices with Legendary Resistance is for that monster to be informed about the effects of a failed save. And if a monster is allowed to expend a Legendary Resistance knowing the effect of a failed save, then a fighter should be able to do the same with Indomitable. But abilities are activated by choice, both explicitly occur on a failed save, and neither requires the user to do it "before the effects are applied".
Monsters and PCs explicitly do not follow the same rules. It’s not about symmetry or parity. It’s about what makes a good encounter. Now, I’ll admit, Legendary Resistance is not the most elegant way of solving the problem it intends to solve, but it works well enough.
That said, sure, I don’t see any issue with a fighter knowing the consequences of a failure before choosing to use Indomitable, and I don’t think anyone is saying otherwise?
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When a monster has the trait Legendary Resistance, the trait clearly states that the monster that fails a saving throw chooses to succeed instead. Does the monster know what will happen if it fails the saving throw? A monster would probably rather use a legendary resistance against the monk's quivering palm than the bard's vicious mockery, but at the time of the saving throw, would they know which effects are the dangerous ones? Also, does a lack of knowledge that a saving throw is being made prevent legendary resistance from being used, such as with subtle spells like suggestion?
Legendary resistance is really a metagame thing. It gets applied if the DM thinks it should apply.
Plus, the monster usually has some signs of what they might be saving against. A spellcaster chants, a fireball appears. They fail the save, but don’t care because 8d6 isn’t much at that point in the game. A monk walks up and punches, might be a bit harder, they might not know exactly if they are getting knocked back or stunning striked. Fortunately, creatures with Legendary Resistance tend to be pretty knowledgeable and experienced, so they might be able to infer what they might be getting hit with based on what the character looks like they can do and prior experiences. For example, the leaders in the campaign I’m running have quite a bit of experience both in general and with the players. They are going to know what they are saving against. The adult white dragon with relatively poor Int that spent its time isolated and unthreatened by adventures in the far north might not be so sure.
The point of legendary resistance is to avoid battle ending effects and draw out big battles. So this would be a time when a little meta knowledge is appropriate
Lots of people are saying that Legendary resistance is a metagame thing, but the trait states outright that the monster chooses to use the trait.
Yes. And the human playing the game at the table chooses on behalf of that monster using whatever basis for that decision is going to result in the most fun game.
But the monster has to stay in character, too, right? The only way for a monster to make all the best choices with Legendary Resistance is for that monster to be informed about the effects of a failed save. And if a monster is allowed to expend a Legendary Resistance knowing the effect of a failed save, then a fighter should be able to do the same with Indomitable. But abilities are activated by choice, both explicitly occur on a failed save, and neither requires the user to do it "before the effects are applied".
Monsters and PCs explicitly do not follow the same rules. It’s not about symmetry or parity. It’s about what makes a good encounter. Now, I’ll admit, Legendary Resistance is not the most elegant way of solving the problem it intends to solve, but it works well enough.
That said, sure, I don’t see any issue with a fighter knowing the consequences of a failure before choosing to use Indomitable, and I don’t think anyone is saying otherwise?