I love this spell! It takes up space (great for chokepoints, or to prevent reinforcements arriving), and it doesn't go away just because a target makes it's save. It does take the caster's action to keep using it each round, but since it causes damage *and* restrains its target (any size!) - which grants all the other PCs Advantage *and* causes the monster to have Disadvantage and no move - this is well worth an action. And a Sorc can just use Quicken to cast some other spells on subsequent rounds - full spells, not cantrips, because using your Action to control the Hand is not a "spell". This spell allowed us not only to kill Venomfang in LMoP, but do it without suffering a single point of damage! (Okay, VF did manage to finally break free and fly away, but an upcast sleep spell took care of that...)
My questions though:
1) Can allies shoot through/past the square the hand is occupying? (We had our Artificer using it as a melee blocker as he flamethrower'd ghouls from behind it...)
2) Can this spell be "Twinned" using metamagic? It is technically a single-target spell, and the second hand can be used to target a different foe, so it *seems* to work in the RAW...
[I posted this on the spell's comment page, too. Realized afterward, should have posted it here in the Forums...]
1) Not sure. Probably - but it might give partial cover.
2) No. When you cast it it doesn't actually target a creature at all. It creates a summon in a 5ft unoccupied space. That summon once there can then target a creature.
The spell creates a "Medium" sized hand that moves. The hand should provide no more cover than a medium sized golem. I would treat it exactly as that. To get cover or hide behind it, I would require that the hand not move that round, at least not any more than it takes to 'crush' a restrained victim.
I would allow you to twin the hand. HOWEVER....
It takes an action to cause the hand to:
Crush a restrained target
Move
To reach for any creature after the round you cast the spell.
I would definitely rule that the action only lets you control a single instance of the hand. If you have two hands it would require 2 actions. As such, it makes very little sense to twin this spell.
#2: This question is very difficult to answer, because I don't think 5E is truly at peace with itself about what it means by "target." Is the target the target of the spell? That's easy enough when it's a spell like Fire Bolt. But is it also the target of the spell's subsequent effects, as in Ice Knife?
Targets
A typical spell requires you to pick one or more targets to be affected by the spell's magic. A spell's description tells you whether the spell targets creatures, objects, or a point of origin for an area of effect (described below).
That certainly makes it sound like a spell will "target" a creature or an object or a point of an origin (for an area of effect)... but Maximilian's Earthen Grasp targets a point of origin to choose a creature, and then that creature can change on subsequent rounds. What's the "target," the point, or the creature?
Furthermore, does this even matter for Twinned Spell? When it tells us "a spell that targets only one creature," does that mean a spell which targets one and only one creature, no more no less, or can one twin any spell that targets no more than one creature? Levitate, able to be Twinned if targeting a creature, but not if targeting an object? Both castings must be creatures, or can cast on one creature, and then an object with the second?
Twinned Spell
When you cast a spell that targets only one creature and doesn’t have a range of self, you can spend a number of sorcery points equal to the spell’s level to target a second creature in range with the same spell (1 sorcery point if the spell is a cantrip).
There is probably no "correct" answer to these, because "target" is simply very obviously used in multiple different and inconsistent fashions in 5E. A target is the creature/object/point that a spell gets launched. A target also is the creature/object/area effected by the spell. Which one of those meanings the rules are referring to any given moment is not always consistent, and is not always inclusive of the other meaning.
That said, the strictest reading would be that Maximilian's Earthen Graspfirst targets a point, and a point is not a creature, and Twinned Spell works "only" on spells that target exactly one creature, so it cannot be Twinned. I think a DM would be very reasonable to allow it, however.
#1 is easy though. It's a medium-sized object made of compacted earth, so it provides Cover as may be appropriate to combatants on the other side of it from the source of attacks.
Thank you to both of you! Obviously, then, some player shenanigans occurred in the boss fight last session (my fault). I'll have to let the GM know I bent this rule a little too far!
Let's make a decision because most answers you'll find on the Internet says you can't Twin Spell Maximillian's Earthen Grasp. As per ruling by Jeremy Crawford, you can:
The act of "targeting" a 5-foot square of unoccupied space is not the act of "targeting" with the spell, it is the act of creating the spell which needs that much space to manifest, otherwise, you'd not be able to cast the spell. As such, the subsequent text, which is the actual effect of the spell, of "targeting" one enemy qualifies the spell for being Twinned, along with the other specifications.
And because it is manifested, you are able to use it as cover, but, as always, the finer details are left up to the discretion of your DM. For example, your DM may say the spell sinks back into the earth if it fails to restrain a target, but is still in effect.
As for a spell like Ice Knife, which initially "targets" one enemy, does not qualify to be Twinned because it's subsequent effect allows it to affect more than one enemy.
This means spells similar to Ice Knife cannot be Twinned either, for example Chaos Orb, which initially has a single target designation, but is capable of affecting another even though the requirements to do so is quite tough. Another spell that can't be Twinned is Dragon's Breath. Although the description makes it seem as though it fulfills the requirement, the subsequent effect of the spell let's you affect more than one since you blast a cone.
As for the spell Crown of Madness, I personally believe it can be Twinned because it targets only one creature, and any subsequent action or effect caused by the spell still only affects one target. Further enforced by the text specifying "a melee" attack, which for the most part of combat, only affects one creature.
Regarding your issue with "targets" and "targeting" in your post, go read RegentCorreon's response.
But if you feel like being nitpicky about the specificity of the issue, then here's the Sage Advice Compendium guide to Twin Spelling eligibility (I'll be labeling the list for clarification further in the post):
Can my sorcerer use Twinned Spell to affect a particular spell?
You can use Twinned Spell on a spell that:
1) targets only one creature
2) doesn’t have a range of self
3) is incapable of targeting more than one creature at the spell’s current level
If you know this rule yet are still unsure whether a particular spell qualifies for Twinned Spell, consult with your DM, who has the final say. If the two of you are curious about our design intent, here is the list of things that disqualify a spell for us:
A1) The spell has a range of self.
A2) The spell can target an object.
A3) The spell allows you to choose more than one creature to be affected by it, particularly at the level you’re casting the spell. Some spells increase their number of potential targets when you cast them at a higher level.
A4)The spell can force more than one creature to make a saving throw before the spell’s duration expires.
A5) The spell lets you make a roll of any kind that can affect more than one creature before the spell’s duration expires.
So let's run off a checklist for Maximillian's Earthen Grasp:
1) True. Is the "targeting" specified earlier in the text of the spell affecting creatures in any way? No it doesn't, therefore does not disqualify the first requisite.
2) True.
3) True.
The spell satisfies all three criteria, and thus is eligible to be Twinned Spelled.
Now for Crown of Madness (yes I'm going to push this) it does indeed satisfy the initial basic rulings, but as we know, it has subsequent effects once the spell has taken place similar to Dragon's Breath. As such, we must check the guide for which disqualifies a spell to be Twinned.
So the checklist for Dragon's Breath would proceed as:
A1) False
A2) False
A3) False
A4) True
So by satisfying condition 4, Dragon's Breath disqualifies from being Twinned. So now let's go over the checklist for Crown of Madness:
A1) False
A2) False
A3) False
A4) False
A5) False. But you can try to argue that the spell makes the afflicted creature make an attack roll against another target, but the condition states that you must make the roll whereas the text in Crown of Madness states the affected creature makes the attack on their own turn.
So it is clear that Crown of Madness is eligible of being Twinned.
Regarding your issue with "targets" and "targeting" in your post, go read RegentCorreon's response.
But if you feel like being nitpicky about the specificity of the issue, then here's the Sage Advice Compendium guide to Twin Spelling eligibility (I'll be labeling the list for clarification further in the post):
Can my sorcerer use Twinned Spell to affect a particular spell?
You can use Twinned Spell on a spell that:
1) targets only one creature
2) doesn’t have a range of self
3) is incapable of targeting more than one creature at the spell’s current level
If you know this rule yet are still unsure whether a particular spell qualifies for Twinned Spell, consult with your DM, who has the final say. If the two of you are curious about our design intent, here is the list of things that disqualify a spell for us:
A1) The spell has a range of self.
A2) The spell can target an object.
A3) The spell allows you to choose more than one creature to be affected by it, particularly at the level you’re casting the spell. Some spells increase their number of potential targets when you cast them at a higher level.
A4)The spell can force more than one creature to make a saving throw before the spell’s duration expires.
A5) The spell lets you make a roll of any kind that can affect more than one creature before the spell’s duration expires.
Hmm. Okay. Sure. But, you're not applying these to the spell below...
So let's run off a checklist for Maximillian's Earthen Grasp:
1) True. Is the "targeting" specified earlier in the text of the spell affecting creatures in any way? No it doesn't, therefore does not disqualify the first requisite.
2) True.
3) True.
The spell satisfies all three criteria, and thus is eligible to be Twinned Spelled.
Point #1 is false. The Grasp isn't initially targeting a creature. Instead "You choose a 5-foot-square unoccupied space on the ground that you can see within range."
Now, if you disagree, and insist that it is targeting a creature, then, well, sad to say it but that means point #3 is then false, because it could in fact be changed to target different creatures each round. "As an action, you can cause the hand to reach for a different creature or to move to a different unoccupied space within range."
Either it fails the "targets a creature" check, or it fails the "only targets only 1 creature" check.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I love this spell! It takes up space (great for chokepoints, or to prevent reinforcements arriving), and it doesn't go away just because a target makes it's save. It does take the caster's action to keep using it each round, but since it causes damage *and* restrains its target (any size!) - which grants all the other PCs Advantage *and* causes the monster to have Disadvantage and no move - this is well worth an action. And a Sorc can just use Quicken to cast some other spells on subsequent rounds - full spells, not cantrips, because using your Action to control the Hand is not a "spell". This spell allowed us not only to kill Venomfang in LMoP, but do it without suffering a single point of damage! (Okay, VF did manage to finally break free and fly away, but an upcast sleep spell took care of that...)
My questions though:
1) Can allies shoot through/past the square the hand is occupying? (We had our Artificer using it as a melee blocker as he flamethrower'd ghouls from behind it...)
2) Can this spell be "Twinned" using metamagic? It is technically a single-target spell, and the second hand can be used to target a different foe, so it *seems* to work in the RAW...
[I posted this on the spell's comment page, too. Realized afterward, should have posted it here in the Forums...]
1) Not sure. Probably - but it might give partial cover.
2) No. When you cast it it doesn't actually target a creature at all. It creates a summon in a 5ft unoccupied space. That summon once there can then target a creature.
Mega Yahtzee Thread:
Highest 41: brocker2001 (#11,285).
Yahtzee of 2's: Emmber (#36,161).
Lowest 9: JoeltheWalrus (#312), Emmber (#12,505) and Dertinus (#20,953).
It takes an action to cause the hand to:
I would definitely rule that the action only lets you control a single instance of the hand. If you have two hands it would require 2 actions. As such, it makes very little sense to twin this spell.
#2: This question is very difficult to answer, because I don't think 5E is truly at peace with itself about what it means by "target." Is the target the target of the spell? That's easy enough when it's a spell like Fire Bolt. But is it also the target of the spell's subsequent effects, as in Ice Knife?
That certainly makes it sound like a spell will "target" a creature or an object or a point of an origin (for an area of effect)... but Maximilian's Earthen Grasp targets a point of origin to choose a creature, and then that creature can change on subsequent rounds. What's the "target," the point, or the creature?
Furthermore, does this even matter for Twinned Spell? When it tells us "a spell that targets only one creature," does that mean a spell which targets one and only one creature, no more no less, or can one twin any spell that targets no more than one creature? Levitate, able to be Twinned if targeting a creature, but not if targeting an object? Both castings must be creatures, or can cast on one creature, and then an object with the second?
There is probably no "correct" answer to these, because "target" is simply very obviously used in multiple different and inconsistent fashions in 5E. A target is the creature/object/point that a spell gets launched. A target also is the creature/object/area effected by the spell. Which one of those meanings the rules are referring to any given moment is not always consistent, and is not always inclusive of the other meaning.
That said, the strictest reading would be that Maximilian's Earthen Grasp first targets a point, and a point is not a creature, and Twinned Spell works "only" on spells that target exactly one creature, so it cannot be Twinned. I think a DM would be very reasonable to allow it, however.
#1 is easy though. It's a medium-sized object made of compacted earth, so it provides Cover as may be appropriate to combatants on the other side of it from the source of attacks.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Thank you to both of you! Obviously, then, some player shenanigans occurred in the boss fight last session (my fault). I'll have to let the GM know I bent this rule a little too far!
Let's make a decision because most answers you'll find on the Internet says you can't Twin Spell Maximillian's Earthen Grasp. As per ruling by Jeremy Crawford, you can:
https://www.sageadvice.eu/can-a-spell-like-maximilians-earthen-grasp-or-telekinesis-be-twinned/
The act of "targeting" a 5-foot square of unoccupied space is not the act of "targeting" with the spell, it is the act of creating the spell which needs that much space to manifest, otherwise, you'd not be able to cast the spell. As such, the subsequent text, which is the actual effect of the spell, of "targeting" one enemy qualifies the spell for being Twinned, along with the other specifications.
And because it is manifested, you are able to use it as cover, but, as always, the finer details are left up to the discretion of your DM. For example, your DM may say the spell sinks back into the earth if it fails to restrain a target, but is still in effect.
As for a spell like Ice Knife, which initially "targets" one enemy, does not qualify to be Twinned because it's subsequent effect allows it to affect more than one enemy.
https://www.sageadvice.eu/can-i-use-twinned-spell-on-ice-knife/
This means spells similar to Ice Knife cannot be Twinned either, for example Chaos Orb, which initially has a single target designation, but is capable of affecting another even though the requirements to do so is quite tough. Another spell that can't be Twinned is Dragon's Breath. Although the description makes it seem as though it fulfills the requirement, the subsequent effect of the spell let's you affect more than one since you blast a cone.
As for the spell Crown of Madness, I personally believe it can be Twinned because it targets only one creature, and any subsequent action or effect caused by the spell still only affects one target. Further enforced by the text specifying "a melee" attack, which for the most part of combat, only affects one creature.
Oh no.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Regarding your issue with "targets" and "targeting" in your post, go read RegentCorreon's response.
But if you feel like being nitpicky about the specificity of the issue, then here's the Sage Advice Compendium guide to Twin Spelling eligibility (I'll be labeling the list for clarification further in the post):
Can my sorcerer use Twinned Spell to affect a particular spell?
You can use Twinned Spell on a spell that:
1) targets only one creature
2) doesn’t have a range of self
3) is incapable of targeting more than one creature at the spell’s current level
If you know this rule yet are still unsure whether a particular spell qualifies for Twinned Spell, consult with your DM, who has the final say. If the two of you are curious about our design intent, here is the list of things that disqualify a spell for us:
A1) The spell has a range of self.
A2) The spell can target an object.
A3) The spell allows you to choose more than one creature to be affected by it, particularly at the level you’re casting the spell. Some spells increase their number of potential targets when you cast them at a higher level.
A4)The spell can force more than one creature to make a saving throw before the spell’s duration expires.
A5) The spell lets you make a roll of any kind that can affect more than one creature before the spell’s duration expires.
So let's run off a checklist for Maximillian's Earthen Grasp:
1) True. Is the "targeting" specified earlier in the text of the spell affecting creatures in any way? No it doesn't, therefore does not disqualify the first requisite.
2) True.
3) True.
The spell satisfies all three criteria, and thus is eligible to be Twinned Spelled.
Now for Crown of Madness (yes I'm going to push this) it does indeed satisfy the initial basic rulings, but as we know, it has subsequent effects once the spell has taken place similar to Dragon's Breath. As such, we must check the guide for which disqualifies a spell to be Twinned.
So the checklist for Dragon's Breath would proceed as:
A1) False
A2) False
A3) False
A4) True
So by satisfying condition 4, Dragon's Breath disqualifies from being Twinned. So now let's go over the checklist for Crown of Madness:
A1) False
A2) False
A3) False
A4) False
A5) False. But you can try to argue that the spell makes the afflicted creature make an attack roll against another target, but the condition states that you must make the roll whereas the text in Crown of Madness states the affected creature makes the attack on their own turn.
So it is clear that Crown of Madness is eligible of being Twinned.
And here is the Sage Advice Compendium link: https://media.wizards.com/2020/dnd/downloads/SA-Compendium.pdf
Hmm. Okay. Sure. But, you're not applying these to the spell below...
Point #1 is false. The Grasp isn't initially targeting a creature. Instead "You choose a 5-foot-square unoccupied space on the ground that you can see within range."
Now, if you disagree, and insist that it is targeting a creature, then, well, sad to say it but that means point #3 is then false, because it could in fact be changed to target different creatures each round. "As an action, you can cause the hand to reach for a different creature or to move to a different unoccupied space within range."
Either it fails the "targets a creature" check, or it fails the "only targets only 1 creature" check.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.