I was reading through the new Chasessection in the 2024 DMG, and had a question on the way they worded Dashing.
Within the Running the Chase section, in the Dashingparagraph, it states that a chase participant can take the Dash action a number of times equal to 3 plus its Constitution modifier. The paragraph then goes on to state that with each additional Dash action taken the character must succeed on a DC10 Con Save or take 1 point of Exhaustion.
My main question is this; is the DMG saying that in Chases a player can take the dash action more than once on each turn, or is this talking in general, and just limiting the number of times a character can Dash on each of their turns as they would start to get tired eventually?
I assume it is the latter, as Dashing more than once per turn seems broken in a chase, but just want to clarify :)
Cheers!
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Breathe, dragons; sing of the First World, forged out of chaos and painted with beauty. Sing of Bahamut, the Platinum, molding the shape of the mountains and rivers; Sing too of Chromatic Tiamat, painting all over the infinite canvas. Partnered, they woke in the darkness; partnered, they labored in acts of creation.
You only get 1 Action per turn ("Beginning the Chase"), so the Dash Action is what you can take 3+ConMod times per chase without a check. After using it 3 turns, you then rely on your ConMod to help you compete in later turns.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
You only get 1 Action per turn ("Beginning the Chase"), so the Dash Action is what you can take 3+ConMod times per chase without a check. After using it 3 turns, you then rely on your ConMod to help you compete in later turns.
That is what I thought and just wanted to confirm, thank you :)
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Breathe, dragons; sing of the First World, forged out of chaos and painted with beauty. Sing of Bahamut, the Platinum, molding the shape of the mountains and rivers; Sing too of Chromatic Tiamat, painting all over the infinite canvas. Partnered, they woke in the darkness; partnered, they labored in acts of creation.
You only get 1 Action per turn ("Beginning the Chase"), so the Dash Action is what you can take 3+ConMod times per chase without a check. After using it 3 turns, you then rely on your ConMod to help you compete in later turns.
If they get multiple attacks, couldn't they substitute those attack actions for some of those Dash Actions?
You only get 1 Action per turn ("Beginning the Chase"), so the Dash Action is what you can take 3+ConMod times per chase without a check. After using it 3 turns, you then rely on your ConMod to help you compete in later turns.
If they get multiple attacks, couldn't they substitute those attack actions for some of those Dash Actions?
No, the way Extra Attack works is that you attack X number of times per Attack Action, so you're still getting one Action, you just get more attacks out of it.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Why does Expeditious Retreat last for 600 turns, when most can only Dash less than 20 times max by these rules?
If you want interesting chases, don’t nerf a 1st level Spell and multiple 2nd level abilities. Give an NPC, that has a habit of running away or chasing down somebody, the same skills/spells/equipment (Wayfarer’s Boots) that PCs may or may not utilize.
Cause now you’ve got an issue where Monks (Step of the Wind), Rogues (Cunning Action), Wood Elves one Expeditious Retreat/day, and casters with Expeditious Retreat getting exhausted after a couple Dashes while melee classes with great weapons are swinging away 2-4 times a turn without a hint of tiring.
There’s no logical reason why a chase would impose limitations that combat wouldn’t, especially when you’re doing only one thing.
Why does Expeditious Retreat last for 600 turns, when most can only Dash less than 20 times max by these rules?
If you want interesting chases, don’t nerf a 1st level Spell and multiple 2nd level abilities. Give an NPC, that has a habit of running away or chasing down somebody, the same skills/spells/equipment (Wayfarer’s Boots) that PCs may or may not utilize.
Cause now you’ve got an issue where Monks (Step of the Wind), Rogues (Cunning Action), Wood Elves one Expeditious Retreat/day, and casters with Expeditious Retreat getting exhausted after a couple Dashes while melee classes with great weapons are swinging away 2-4 times a turn without a hint of tiring.
There’s no logical reason why a chase would impose limitations that combat wouldn’t, especially when you’re doing only one thing.
Summary: the Chase mechanics are hot garbage.
Expeditious Retreat allows you to take a bonus action to take the Dash Action. It does not require it.
But regardless, the Exhaustion levels gained from chase rules are not 'real' levels of exhaustion, and they are removed from a single Short Rest. The main reason for these rules is storytelling, as an eternal "Everyone takes Dash" chase will be very boring.
Why does Expeditious Retreat last for 600 turns, when most can only Dash less than 20 times max by these rules?
If you want interesting chases, don’t nerf a 1st level Spell and multiple 2nd level abilities. Give an NPC, that has a habit of running away or chasing down somebody, the same skills/spells/equipment (Wayfarer’s Boots) that PCs may or may not utilize.
Cause now you’ve got an issue where Monks (Step of the Wind), Rogues (Cunning Action), Wood Elves one Expeditious Retreat/day, and casters with Expeditious Retreat getting exhausted after a couple Dashes while melee classes with great weapons are swinging away 2-4 times a turn without a hint of tiring.
There’s no logical reason why a chase would impose limitations that combat wouldn’t, especially when you’re doing only one thing.
Summary: the Chase mechanics are hot garbage.
If your chase encounter is taking long enough for someone to dash 20 times, it's already way too fricken long, let alone 600 rounds. You would never complain about a combat encounter not lasting 600 turns, and a chase scene is subject to much of the same rules of combat: ideally you want it to last 3-5 rounds before it starts to slog and become boring.
I don't think it's "hot garbage" for imposing common sense limitations on dashing in a way that encourages better flow of gameplay at the table.
And if the “Experience” strays too far from basic logic, then immersion is lost.
I understand the “rationale” for these rules, and that rationale is hot garbage as well.
Nerfing supposedly Heroic Characters to the level LOWER than modern day office workers who can run 26 miles (a marathon) at an average pace of 10 ft/s (60’/turn; 1 Dash for a standard Speed of 30’) for 4 hours and 30 minutes and fastest runners going as high as 25 ft/s (150’/turn; 5 Dashes for a standard Speed of 30’) for 2 hours is beyond ridiculous. You think Adventures can’t keep up a pace for longer than one minute (10 turns) without getting winded?
Monks and Rogues can Dash 2 times a turn, and Warriors of the Open Hand Monks can Dash 3 times a turn.
Besides, part of the “logic” for these rules were actually to lengthen chases, so what are you even arguing?
”The rules for movement in combat don’t translate to every situation. In particular, they can make a potentially thrilling chase seem dull and predictable. Faster creatures always catch up to slower ones, while creatures with the same Speed never close the distance between each other. Use the following rules to introduce random elements that make chases more exciting.” - DMG, Chapter 3, Chases
But hey, if you want to play characters who can’t even handle a modern day marathon where average people move 10 ft/s (60’/turn; or a movement and a Dash every turn for standard players) for FOUR AND A HALF HOURS (2,700 turns) and far less than the fastest marathon runners moving 25 ft/s (150’/turn; a Monk 10 Dashing twice per turn) that’s all you, mate.
If somebody needs hot garbage rules to make a chase event more exciting, maybe they need to exercise their imagination a little more. There are enough rules already that solutions outside of illogical nerfing can be developed.
I’m not sure what “common sense” you’re referring to. Could you expound on that?
Monks and Rogues can Dash 2 times a turn, and Warriors of the Open Hand Monks can Dash 3 times a turn.
Besides, part of the “logic” for these rules were actually to lengthen chases, so what are you even arguing?
”The rules for movement in combat don’t translate to every situation. In particular, they can make a potentially thrilling chase seem dull and predictable. Faster creatures always catch up to slower ones, while creatures with the same Speed never close the distance between each other. Use the following rules to introduce random elements that make chases more exciting.” - DMG, Chapter 3, Chases
But hey, if you want to play characters who can’t even handle a modern day marathon where average people move 10 ft/s (60’/turn; or a movement and a Dash every turn for standard players) for FOUR AND A HALF HOURS (2,700 turns) and far less than the fastest marathon runners moving 25 ft/s (150’/turn; a Monk 10 Dashing twice per turn) that’s all you, mate.
If somebody needs hot garbage rules to make a chase event more exciting, maybe they need to exercise their imagination a little more. There are enough rules already that solutions outside of illogical nerfing can be developed.
I’m not sure what “common sense” you’re referring to. Could you expound on that?
Well, for one marathon runners are highly trained in a very specific area (distance running and sprinting are radically different activities), are running on a set course with no obstacles and relatively gentle turns, are not involved in a life-or-death situation, have shoes that are a technical marvel, and aren’t carrying a few dozen pounds worth of gear. But all that aside, I think in practice this would not be an issue. The characters with extra dash actions will very likely end the chase very quickly, long before the chase related saving throws would matter. They’re moving fast enough that either they get away, or they catch the thing they’re chasing. And if you have a situation where both chaser and chased have these abilities, then it comes back into play in a way that makes for a satisfying game play experience.
Common sense: people get tired sprinting (marathons are about endurance, not necessarily focusing on speed) for long periods of time. Chases get tedious after too long, it makes sense to limit dashes to keep them from dragging and it doesn't impact gameplay much because, as Xalthu points out, characters who can dash multiple times per turn are more likely to end chases earlier anyways.
Got it. Even AFTER I did the math for you, you still maintain some idea of “common sense” not reflected anywhere in reality. I don’t think “common sense” means what you think it means. Marathon runners must be “sprinting” the entire time since even the average runner has an average pace the same as Dashing EVERY turn.
“Chases get tedious after too long…”
You’ll have the same problem if the pursuer and the one fleeing both fatigue at the same rate as well, so nothing was actually solved with pointless illogical nerfing.
As for modern footwear…you seem to think modern technology holds a candle to magic in a fantasy world? Please name the shoes that add 1.7 ft/s to somebody’s walking speed. I’ll order a pair immediately. LOL
Every classes special ability is a reflection of specialized training, so I’m not even sure what your point is.
”And if you have a situation where both chaser and chased have these abilities…”
or both don’t have these abilities…
or both fatigue at the same rate…
Are you suggesting that the ONLY two outcomes conceivable are the two you laid out?
As for “life and death.” Are you suggesting that a chase is more perilous than actual combat? Somehow there are no exhaustion rules for combat regarding Dash, but a scenario where Dash is the primary activity all of a sudden gets limitations? 😂
Got it. Even AFTER I did the math for you, you still maintain some idea of “common sense” not reflected anywhere in reality. I don’t think “common sense” means what you think it means. Marathon runners must be “sprinting” the entire time since even the average runner has an average pace the same as Dashing EVERY turn.
“Chases get tedious after too long…”
You’ll have the same problem if the pursuer and the one fleeing both fatigue at the same rate as well, so nothing was actually solved with pointless illogical nerfing.
As for modern footwear…you seem to think modern technology holds a candle to magic in a fantasy world? Please name the shoes that add 1.7 ft/s to somebody’s walking speed. I’ll order a pair immediately. LOL
At your table, you do your thing. The chase rules aren't a monolith that can't be changed. Not everyone wants extreme simulation. You don't need to aggressively attack anyone who wants to follow RAW.
Dash being the equivalent to running, what the rules seem to be suggesting is that average people cannot jog for more than about 20 seconds without starting to become exhausted. 60' per six seconds is about the speed of a brisk jog.
It is a down side to sometimes overly simplified rules. Other than maybe Tabaxi, there is no real middle run speed.
You’re missing the whole point that “storytelling devices” that break immersion are hot garbage.
If you don’t like this conversation, don’t respond. It’s not that complicated.
Considering you didn't start the conversation, not your call. Again you're trying to bully people out as a way of 'winning'.
The question asked was answered. Now you're just responding to anyone who isn't in alignment with your view, with aggression. Rules as written, are the rules as written. You don't have to "prove" they're wrong, because they're not what you want them to be.
Chase Mechanics are designed to provide an exciting, fast paced but limited method of resolving a chase in a cinematic way. If you don't want to use the chase mechanics, you can literally pace out every round. Most maps run out eventually, but you can track position with distances. You don't have to use the 'cinematic method' if you want to use the concept of 'realism' in a game where you pretend to shoot fire from your hands, and a guy with a metal sword can defeat a god.
If you want that level of realism, use the standard combat rules, with no limits, though even the combat rules you're relying on aren't "realism" in the way you're portraying. During combat, a "dash" of 60ft, is very different from running flat out for 6 seconds. Dash still provides you with your dexterity bonus to defence while moving, whereas if you wanted 'true realism', your chase scene combatants would not have the ability to properly duck any projectiles etc. The chasee wouldn't easily be able to see behind them while running at full pace either.
So if you want 'realism' in your chase mechanics, there's a whole bag of rules you'll need to homebrew to get the full experience out of it. That's why most of us go with the simple straightfoward "suspension of disbelief for the fun of the experience" Chase Mechanics.
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Greetings D&D Beyond and Community,
I was reading through the new Chases section in the 2024 DMG, and had a question on the way they worded Dashing.
Within the Running the Chase section, in the Dashing paragraph, it states that a chase participant can take the Dash action a number of times equal to 3 plus its Constitution modifier.
The paragraph then goes on to state that with each additional Dash action taken the character must succeed on a DC10 Con Save or take 1 point of Exhaustion.
My main question is this; is the DMG saying that in Chases a player can take the dash action more than once on each turn, or is this talking in general, and just limiting the number of times a character can Dash on each of their turns as they would start to get tired eventually?
I assume it is the latter, as Dashing more than once per turn seems broken in a chase, but just want to clarify :)
Cheers!
Breathe, dragons; sing of the First World, forged out of chaos and painted with beauty.
Sing of Bahamut, the Platinum, molding the shape of the mountains and rivers;
Sing too of Chromatic Tiamat, painting all over the infinite canvas.
Partnered, they woke in the darkness; partnered, they labored in acts of creation.
You only get 1 Action per turn ("Beginning the Chase"), so the Dash Action is what you can take 3+ConMod times per chase without a check. After using it 3 turns, you then rely on your ConMod to help you compete in later turns.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
That is what I thought and just wanted to confirm, thank you :)
Breathe, dragons; sing of the First World, forged out of chaos and painted with beauty.
Sing of Bahamut, the Platinum, molding the shape of the mountains and rivers;
Sing too of Chromatic Tiamat, painting all over the infinite canvas.
Partnered, they woke in the darkness; partnered, they labored in acts of creation.
It's to account for monks and rogues that can dash multiple times per turn using their bonus actions.
Barring some special ability to the contrary, you only get one action
If they get multiple attacks, couldn't they substitute those attack actions for some of those Dash Actions?
No, that's not how Extra Attack works.
pronouns: he/she/they
No, the way Extra Attack works is that you attack X number of times per Attack Action, so you're still getting one Action, you just get more attacks out of it.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Why does Expeditious Retreat last for 600 turns, when most can only Dash less than 20 times max by these rules?
If you want interesting chases, don’t nerf a 1st level Spell and multiple 2nd level abilities. Give an NPC, that has a habit of running away or chasing down somebody, the same skills/spells/equipment (Wayfarer’s Boots) that PCs may or may not utilize.
Cause now you’ve got an issue where Monks (Step of the Wind), Rogues (Cunning Action), Wood Elves one Expeditious Retreat/day, and casters with Expeditious Retreat getting exhausted after a couple Dashes while melee classes with great weapons are swinging away 2-4 times a turn without a hint of tiring.
There’s no logical reason why a chase would impose limitations that combat wouldn’t, especially when you’re doing only one thing.
Summary: the Chase mechanics are hot garbage.
Expeditious Retreat allows you to take a bonus action to take the Dash Action. It does not require it.
But regardless, the Exhaustion levels gained from chase rules are not 'real' levels of exhaustion, and they are removed from a single Short Rest. The main reason for these rules is storytelling, as an eternal "Everyone takes Dash" chase will be very boring.
As a reminder, Rules Aren't Physics. They're designed to sculpt an experience.
If your chase encounter is taking long enough for someone to dash 20 times, it's already way too fricken long, let alone 600 rounds. You would never complain about a combat encounter not lasting 600 turns, and a chase scene is subject to much of the same rules of combat: ideally you want it to last 3-5 rounds before it starts to slog and become boring.
I don't think it's "hot garbage" for imposing common sense limitations on dashing in a way that encourages better flow of gameplay at the table.
And if the “Experience” strays too far from basic logic, then immersion is lost.
I understand the “rationale” for these rules, and that rationale is hot garbage as well.
Nerfing supposedly Heroic Characters to the level LOWER than modern day office workers who can run 26 miles (a marathon) at an average pace of 10 ft/s (60’/turn; 1 Dash for a standard Speed of 30’) for 4 hours and 30 minutes and fastest runners going as high as 25 ft/s (150’/turn; 5 Dashes for a standard Speed of 30’) for 2 hours is beyond ridiculous. You think Adventures can’t keep up a pace for longer than one minute (10 turns) without getting winded?
This rule isn’t physics OR basic biology.
Monks and Rogues can Dash 2 times a turn, and Warriors of the Open Hand Monks can Dash 3 times a turn.
Besides, part of the “logic” for these rules were actually to lengthen chases, so what are you even arguing?
”The rules for movement in combat don’t translate to every situation. In particular, they can make a potentially thrilling chase seem dull and predictable. Faster creatures always catch up to slower ones, while creatures with the same Speed never close the distance between each other. Use the following rules to introduce random elements that make chases more exciting.” - DMG, Chapter 3, Chases
But hey, if you want to play characters who can’t even handle a modern day marathon where average people move 10 ft/s (60’/turn; or a movement and a Dash every turn for standard players) for FOUR AND A HALF HOURS (2,700 turns) and far less than the fastest marathon runners moving 25 ft/s (150’/turn; a Monk 10 Dashing twice per turn) that’s all you, mate.
If somebody needs hot garbage rules to make a chase event more exciting, maybe they need to exercise their imagination a little more. There are enough rules already that solutions outside of illogical nerfing can be developed.
I’m not sure what “common sense” you’re referring to. Could you expound on that?
Well, for one marathon runners are highly trained in a very specific area (distance running and sprinting are radically different activities), are running on a set course with no obstacles and relatively gentle turns, are not involved in a life-or-death situation, have shoes that are a technical marvel, and aren’t carrying a few dozen pounds worth of gear.
But all that aside, I think in practice this would not be an issue. The characters with extra dash actions will very likely end the chase very quickly, long before the chase related saving throws would matter. They’re moving fast enough that either they get away, or they catch the thing they’re chasing. And if you have a situation where both chaser and chased have these abilities, then it comes back into play in a way that makes for a satisfying game play experience.
Common sense: people get tired sprinting (marathons are about endurance, not necessarily focusing on speed) for long periods of time. Chases get tedious after too long, it makes sense to limit dashes to keep them from dragging and it doesn't impact gameplay much because, as Xalthu points out, characters who can dash multiple times per turn are more likely to end chases earlier anyways.
Got it. Even AFTER I did the math for you, you still maintain some idea of “common sense” not reflected anywhere in reality. I don’t think “common sense” means what you think it means. Marathon runners must be “sprinting” the entire time since even the average runner has an average pace the same as Dashing EVERY turn.
“Chases get tedious after too long…”
You’ll have the same problem if the pursuer and the one fleeing both fatigue at the same rate as well, so nothing was actually solved with pointless illogical nerfing.
As for modern footwear…you seem to think modern technology holds a candle to magic in a fantasy world? Please name the shoes that add 1.7 ft/s to somebody’s walking speed. I’ll order a pair immediately. LOL
Every classes special ability is a reflection of specialized training, so I’m not even sure what your point is.
”And if you have a situation where both chaser and chased have these abilities…”
or both don’t have these abilities…
or both fatigue at the same rate…
Are you suggesting that the ONLY two outcomes conceivable are the two you laid out?
As for “life and death.” Are you suggesting that a chase is more perilous than actual combat? Somehow there are no exhaustion rules for combat regarding Dash, but a scenario where Dash is the primary activity all of a sudden gets limitations? 😂
At your table, you do your thing. The chase rules aren't a monolith that can't be changed. Not everyone wants extreme simulation. You don't need to aggressively attack anyone who wants to follow RAW.
Dash being the equivalent to running, what the rules seem to be suggesting is that average people cannot jog for more than about 20 seconds without starting to become exhausted. 60' per six seconds is about the speed of a brisk jog.
It is a down side to sometimes overly simplified rules. Other than maybe Tabaxi, there is no real middle run speed.
A lot of it is play balance scaling, though.
You’re missing the whole point that “storytelling devices” that break immersion are hot garbage.
If you don’t like this conversation, don’t respond. It’s not that complicated.
Considering you didn't start the conversation, not your call. Again you're trying to bully people out as a way of 'winning'.
The question asked was answered. Now you're just responding to anyone who isn't in alignment with your view, with aggression. Rules as written, are the rules as written. You don't have to "prove" they're wrong, because they're not what you want them to be.
Chase Mechanics are designed to provide an exciting, fast paced but limited method of resolving a chase in a cinematic way. If you don't want to use the chase mechanics, you can literally pace out every round. Most maps run out eventually, but you can track position with distances. You don't have to use the 'cinematic method' if you want to use the concept of 'realism' in a game where you pretend to shoot fire from your hands, and a guy with a metal sword can defeat a god.
If you want that level of realism, use the standard combat rules, with no limits, though even the combat rules you're relying on aren't "realism" in the way you're portraying. During combat, a "dash" of 60ft, is very different from running flat out for 6 seconds. Dash still provides you with your dexterity bonus to defence while moving, whereas if you wanted 'true realism', your chase scene combatants would not have the ability to properly duck any projectiles etc. The chasee wouldn't easily be able to see behind them while running at full pace either.
So if you want 'realism' in your chase mechanics, there's a whole bag of rules you'll need to homebrew to get the full experience out of it. That's why most of us go with the simple straightfoward "suspension of disbelief for the fun of the experience" Chase Mechanics.