Certain spells such as True polymorph can give you the statistics of other creatures, including the spellcasting feature.
This begs the question of what happens when you are already a seventeenth level spellcaster and true polymorph into an eighteenth level spellcaster such as an archmage?
by normal rules, gaining a second spellcasting feature would result in a visit to page 165 of the players handbook but the table does not go above twentieth level for fairly obvious reasons. If you cannot go above twentieth level in total as a spellcaster, then does polymorphing into an archmage have effectively no upsides? or do you treat them as two different versions of the spellcasting feature and have almost double the spell slots and spells prepared?
For warlocks, this is more of a non-issue but by the same token, the warlock and yuan-ti stat blocks in volo's treat pact magic as the same generic spellcasting too
I was unsure of how to rule this so I thought that I would pose the question to you
Certain spells such as True polymorph can give you the statistics of other creatures, including the spellcasting feature.
This begs the question of what happens when you are already a seventeenth level spellcaster and true polymorph into an eighteenth level spellcaster such as an archmage?
by normal rules, gaining a second spellcasting feature would result in a visit to page 165 of the players handbook but the table does not go above twentieth level for fairly obvious reasons. If you cannot go above twentieth level in total as a spellcaster, then does polymorphing into an archmage have effectively no upsides? or do you treat them as two different versions of the spellcasting feature and have almost double the spell slots and spells prepared?
For warlocks, this is more of a non-issue but by the same token, the warlock and yuan-ti stat blocks in volo's treat pact magic as the same generic spellcasting too
I was unsure of how to rule this so I thought that I would pose the question to you
When you are under the effects of True Polymorph, you are the new creature.
Choose one creature or nonmagical object that you can see within range. You transform the creature into a different creature, the creature into a nonmagical object, or the object into a creature (the object must be neither worn nor carried by another creature). The spell lasts for the duration, or until the target drops to 0 hit points or dies. If you concentrate on this spell for the full duration, the spell lasts until it is dispelled.
This spell has no effect on a shapechanger or a creature with 0 hit points. An unwilling creature can make a Wisdom saving throw, and if it succeeds, it isn't affected by this spell.
Creature into Creature. If you turn a creature into another kind of creature, the new form can be any kind you choose whose challenge rating is equal to or less than the target's (or its level, if the target doesn't have a challenge rating). The target's game statistics, including mental ability scores, are replaced by the statistics of the new form. It retains its alignment and personality.
The target assumes the hit points of its new form, and when it reverts to its normal form, the creature returns to the number of hit points it had before it transformed. If it reverts as a result of dropping to 0 hit points, any excess damage carries over to its normal form. As long as the excess damage doesn't reduce the creature's normal form to 0 hit points, it isn't knocked unconscious.
The creature is limited in the actions it can perform by the nature of its new form, and it can't speak, cast spells, or take any other action that requires hands or speech, unless its new form is capable of such actions.
The target's gear melds into the new form. The creature can't activate, use, wield, or otherwise benefit from any of its equipment.
The only things the creature retains from its natural form is alignment & personality. The level 17 spellcaster is no longer a level 17 spellcaster; they only have what is granted by the new form. Hope that helps!
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
The only things the creature retains from its natural form is alignment & personality. The level 17 spellcaster is no longer a level 17 spellcaster; they only have what is granted by the new form. Hope that helps!
But why would there be a need to specify that the creature you become can only cast spells if it can speak and use hands if you were to transform into a creature that does not cast spells such as a warlord or assassin? closely related spells such as polymorph and shapechange have to specifically state that you cannot cast spells or benefit from the spellcasting feature while transformed which is a stipulation lacked by true polymorph.
I can appreciate that an absence of certain limitations does not mean that the spell has no limits but at the same time, it is the only spell that transforms a creature into another without limiting spellcasting and I believe that it was intentional. If it was intended to limit spellcasting then it is severely more ambiguous than the clear cut limitations of polymorph and shapechange.
Also, you can not True Polymorph into an "Archmage" While the Monster Manual has an 'archmage' with CR 12, which is less than the level, that is not a valid target. The Archmage is an example NPC, not a creature.
Also, all gear is transformed into the creature and the creature gets none of the gear listed on the monster manual entree, so no dagger, spell focuse, or spell components.
That said, consider transforming into a Nagpa. Still a stretch, but far more likely to convince a DM to let you get away with it.
Also, you can not True Polymorph into an "Archmage" While the Monster Manual has an 'archmage' with CR 12, which is less than the level, that is not a valid target. The Archmage is an example NPC, not a creature.
In the same way that orcs or yuan-ti are creatures and not valid player races?
What element of shapechange states that you do not completely transform? and why does that make it so you can cast your own spells
[spell[Shapechange[/spell] states that:
"You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them, provided that your new form is physically capable of doing so."
Spellcasting is a feature from your class, which is what allows you to cast spells while Shapechanged. However, your new form may limit your ability to cast spells. If you can't speak, you can't use verbal components. If you lack hands, you can't use somatic components.
True Polymorph, on the other hand, contains none of that language. You simply turn into the new creature. You don't get to retain the benefits of your old class, either RAW or RAI. Crawford also makes that clear here.
Also, you can not True Polymorph into an "Archmage" While the Monster Manual has an 'archmage' with CR 12, which is less than the level, that is not a valid target. The Archmage is an example NPC, not a creature.
In the same way that orcs or yuan-ti are creatures and not valid player races?
From Shapechange. "You transform into an average example of that creature, one without any class levels or the Spellcasting trait." You would just become an Elf, Human or other Character Race, not and Archmage.
"You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them, provided that your new form is physically capable of doing so."
Spellcasting is a feature from your class, which is what allows you to cast spells while Shapechanged. However, your new form may limit your ability to cast spells. If you can't speak, you can't use verbal components. If you lack hands, you can't use somatic components.
True Polymorph, on the other hand, contains none of that language. You simply turn into the new creature. You don't get to retain the benefits of your old class, either RAW or RAI. Crawford also makes that clear here.
Then you could simply work around this using a proxy such as a simulacrum which has the statistics of whichever creature you want, including yourself, layered with a shapechange spell, then by true polymorphing into the proxy and refreshing the spell when you would run out of slots, you can retain the benefits of class, race, feats and other benefits applied to the proxy
The only things the creature retains from its natural form is alignment & personality. The level 17 spellcaster is no longer a level 17 spellcaster; they only have what is granted by the new form. Hope that helps!
But why would there be a need to specify that the creature you become can only cast spells if it can speak and use hands if you were to transform into a creature that does not cast spells such as a warlord or assassin?
Because they needed to make it abundantly clear that you can only do what is allowed by the new form.
The creature is limited in the actions it can perform by the nature of its new form, and it can't speak, cast spells, or take any other action that requires hands or speech, unless its new form is capable of such actions.
It's really not any more complicated than that.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Shapechange cannot transform into a creature that has Spellcasting. So you can never gain new instances of Spellcasting with that spell. You just keep your original feature. That caps you at one does of spellcasting (your original feature)
True Polymorph replaces your statistics completely. You keep nothing from before, aside from alignment and personality. That caps you at one dose of spellcasting (the target creature's feature)
No matter what order your apply them in, or what target you choose, you can't double up on Spellcasting with these spells.
From Shapechange. "You transform into an average example of that creature, one without any class levels or the Spellcasting trait." You would just become an Elf, Human or other Character Race, not and Archmage.
That is a stipulation of shapechange yes, but Mog_Dracov is claiming that because an archmage is a humanoid, it is therefore an NPC not a creature and therefore cannot be true polymorphed into which is a spell that lacks that limitation
You have to Concentrate the whole time. That takes away your primary Action. Now you have a Bonus action if you qualify and a Reaction if triggered. I don't see much problem with that, you won't be able to do much, so it's a huge nerf. Looking at every spell the Archmage gets one by one, there are *two* you could possibly cast. Misty Step is questionable. It takes a bonus action, but what do you do to qualify to cast it? You can cast Counterspell. It's a Reaction. That one there is no question. I do have to wonder what the point was. Are you going to Counterspell them to death?
I think I could find a couple better ways to use a 9th level spell slot. I hope that clarifies things.
Concentration spells do not require you to use your action every round to keep it up. Certain spells like witch bolt specifically state that you do but those are few and far between. Besides, after 1 hour of concentration, you no longer need to concentrate on the spell as the duration changes from concentration to until dispelled
Shapechange cannot transform into a creature that has Spellcasting. So you can never gain new instances of Spellcasting with that spell. You just keep your original feature. That caps you at one does of spellcasting (your original feature)
True Polymorph replaces your statistics completely. You keep nothing from before, aside from alignment and personality. That caps you at one dose of spellcasting (the target creature's feature)
No matter what order your apply them in, or what target you choose, you can't double up on Spellcasting with these spells.
But you can maintain your own original spellcasting by having a simulacrum of yourself shapechange into a weapon centric creature then then polymorph directly into the simulacrum. The simulacrum is specifically a creature in its own right for the sake of true polymorph and has your own spellcasting plus the statistics of the creature it shapechanged into, permanently
Also, you can not True Polymorph into an "Archmage" While the Monster Manual has an 'archmage' with CR 12, which is less than the level, that is not a valid target. The Archmage is an example NPC, not a creature.
Also, all gear is transformed into the creature and the creature gets none of the gear listed on the monster manual entree, so no dagger, spell focuse, or spell components.
That said, consider transforming into a Nagpa. Still a stretch, but far more likely to convince a DM to let you get away with it.
An archmage is absolutely a creature. If it weren't, it wouldn't be a valid target for fire bolt. The archmage is a 100% valid transformation for true polymorph.
On the actual topic of the thread, I'm with Sigred. It doesn't seem at all complicated.
But you can maintain your own original spellcasting by having a simulacrum of yourself shapechange into a weapon centric creature then then polymorph directly into the simulacrum. The simulacrum is specifically a creature in its own right for the sake of true polymorph and has your own spellcasting plus the statistics of the creature it shapechanged into, permanently
Something along these lines might be possible, but your original question dealt with having multiple instances of spellcasting, which this does not accomplish.
Something along these lines might be possible, but your original question dealt with having multiple instances of spellcasting, which this does not accomplish.
It is however, far better than being a mixed melee and caster temporarily or being one or the other permanently which was what I set out to do
Debating is fun and compromise means that you have done it right :)
But you can maintain your own original spellcasting by having a simulacrum of yourself shapechange into a weapon centric creature then then polymorph directly into the simulacrum. The simulacrum is specifically a creature in its own right for the sake of true polymorph and has your own spellcasting plus the statistics of the creature it shapechanged into, permanently
When you polymorph into a creature, you do not also copy any spells effecting it. So you would not get anything from shapechange.
Something along these lines might be possible, but your original question dealt with having multiple instances of spellcasting, which this does not accomplish.
It is however, far better than being a mixed melee and caster temporarily or being one or the other permanently which was what I set out to do
Debating is fun and compromise means that you have done it right :)
Compromise implies there is uncertainty about a point of contention, not that the compromise is correct. In this case, any compromise would be factually incorrect.
Shapechange cannot transform into a creature that has Spellcasting. So you can never gain new instances of Spellcasting with that spell. You just keep your original feature. That caps you at one does of spellcasting (your original feature)
True Polymorph replaces your statistics completely. You keep nothing from before, aside from alignment and personality. That caps you at one dose of spellcasting (the target creature's feature)
No matter what order your apply them in, or what target you choose, you can't double up on Spellcasting with these spells.
But you can maintain your own original spellcasting by having a simulacrum of yourself shapechange into a weapon centric creature then then polymorph directly into the simulacrum. The simulacrum is specifically a creature in its own right for the sake of true polymorph and has your own spellcasting plus the statistics of the creature it shapechanged into, permanently
Wrong. No matter what you do in the middle, the moment you use True Polymorph, you've lost literally everything except original alignment/personality. Congratulations, you turned your simulacrum into something else before turning it back into exactly what the simulacrum was to begin with, gaining absolutely nothing in the process. I do not know why you are failing to understand that "The target's game statistics, including mental ability scores, are replaced by the statistics of the new form." really means what it says; "replace" does not mean "added to"...
There's also the CR restrictions of the spells themselves that make what you're suggesting impossible. Both spells require that the creature the target will become is of a CR/level less than or equal to its current form. The earliest you could naturally get TP is as a level 17 pure casting class. You create your simulacrum, and it's level 17. You attempt to Shapechange it into something with a CR/level less than or equal to 17. If your simulacrum Shapechanged itself into something CR16 or lower, you can't use True Polymorph to change it back. These things only allow lateral/downward adjustments.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
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Certain spells such as True polymorph can give you the statistics of other creatures, including the spellcasting feature.
This begs the question of what happens when you are already a seventeenth level spellcaster and true polymorph into an eighteenth level spellcaster such as an archmage?
by normal rules, gaining a second spellcasting feature would result in a visit to page 165 of the players handbook but the table does not go above twentieth level for fairly obvious reasons. If you cannot go above twentieth level in total as a spellcaster, then does polymorphing into an archmage have effectively no upsides? or do you treat them as two different versions of the spellcasting feature and have almost double the spell slots and spells prepared?
For warlocks, this is more of a non-issue but by the same token, the warlock and yuan-ti stat blocks in volo's treat pact magic as the same generic spellcasting too
I was unsure of how to rule this so I thought that I would pose the question to you
When you are under the effects of True Polymorph, you are the new creature.
The only things the creature retains from its natural form is alignment & personality. The level 17 spellcaster is no longer a level 17 spellcaster; they only have what is granted by the new form. Hope that helps!
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
True polymorph completely transforms you into the new form. You don't retain any of your original features, including Spellcasting.
Shapechange explicitly prevents you from gaining the Spellcasting feature from your new form, so there is no overlap.
But why would there be a need to specify that the creature you become can only cast spells if it can speak and use hands if you were to transform into a creature that does not cast spells such as a warlord or assassin? closely related spells such as polymorph and shapechange have to specifically state that you cannot cast spells or benefit from the spellcasting feature while transformed which is a stipulation lacked by true polymorph.
I can appreciate that an absence of certain limitations does not mean that the spell has no limits but at the same time, it is the only spell that transforms a creature into another without limiting spellcasting and I believe that it was intentional. If it was intended to limit spellcasting then it is severely more ambiguous than the clear cut limitations of polymorph and shapechange.
Also, you can not True Polymorph into an "Archmage" While the Monster Manual has an 'archmage' with CR 12, which is less than the level, that is not a valid target. The Archmage is an example NPC, not a creature.
Also, all gear is transformed into the creature and the creature gets none of the gear listed on the monster manual entree, so no dagger, spell focuse, or spell components.
That said, consider transforming into a Nagpa. Still a stretch, but far more likely to convince a DM to let you get away with it.
What element of shapechange states that you do not completely transform? and why does that make it so you can cast your own spells
In the same way that orcs or yuan-ti are creatures and not valid player races?
[spell[Shapechange[/spell] states that:
"You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them, provided that your new form is physically capable of doing so."
Spellcasting is a feature from your class, which is what allows you to cast spells while Shapechanged. However, your new form may limit your ability to cast spells. If you can't speak, you can't use verbal components. If you lack hands, you can't use somatic components.
True Polymorph, on the other hand, contains none of that language. You simply turn into the new creature. You don't get to retain the benefits of your old class, either RAW or RAI. Crawford also makes that clear here.
From Shapechange. "You transform into an average example of that creature, one without any class levels or the Spellcasting trait." You would just become an Elf, Human or other Character Race, not and Archmage.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Then you could simply work around this using a proxy such as a simulacrum which has the statistics of whichever creature you want, including yourself, layered with a shapechange spell, then by true polymorphing into the proxy and refreshing the spell when you would run out of slots, you can retain the benefits of class, race, feats and other benefits applied to the proxy
Because they needed to make it abundantly clear that you can only do what is allowed by the new form.
It's really not any more complicated than that.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
This doesn't work the way you want it to.
Shapechange cannot transform into a creature that has Spellcasting. So you can never gain new instances of Spellcasting with that spell. You just keep your original feature. That caps you at one does of spellcasting (your original feature)
True Polymorph replaces your statistics completely. You keep nothing from before, aside from alignment and personality. That caps you at one dose of spellcasting (the target creature's feature)
No matter what order your apply them in, or what target you choose, you can't double up on Spellcasting with these spells.
That is a stipulation of shapechange yes, but Mog_Dracov is claiming that because an archmage is a humanoid, it is therefore an NPC not a creature and therefore cannot be true polymorphed into which is a spell that lacks that limitation
Concentration spells do not require you to use your action every round to keep it up. Certain spells like witch bolt specifically state that you do but those are few and far between. Besides, after 1 hour of concentration, you no longer need to concentrate on the spell as the duration changes from concentration to until dispelled
But you can maintain your own original spellcasting by having a simulacrum of yourself shapechange into a weapon centric creature then then polymorph directly into the simulacrum. The simulacrum is specifically a creature in its own right for the sake of true polymorph and has your own spellcasting plus the statistics of the creature it shapechanged into, permanently
Concentration
Some spells require you to maintain concentration in order to keep their magic active. If you lose concentration, such a spell ends.
Seems clear enough to me...
If you want to spend an entire hour out of combat before doing whatever it was, I don't see a problem.
<Insert clever signature here>
An archmage is absolutely a creature. If it weren't, it wouldn't be a valid target for fire bolt. The archmage is a 100% valid transformation for true polymorph.
On the actual topic of the thread, I'm with Sigred. It doesn't seem at all complicated.
Something along these lines might be possible, but your original question dealt with having multiple instances of spellcasting, which this does not accomplish.
It is however, far better than being a mixed melee and caster temporarily or being one or the other permanently which was what I set out to do
Debating is fun and compromise means that you have done it right :)
When you polymorph into a creature, you do not also copy any spells effecting it. So you would not get anything from shapechange.
Compromise implies there is uncertainty about a point of contention, not that the compromise is correct. In this case, any compromise would be factually incorrect.
Wrong. No matter what you do in the middle, the moment you use True Polymorph, you've lost literally everything except original alignment/personality. Congratulations, you turned your simulacrum into something else before turning it back into exactly what the simulacrum was to begin with, gaining absolutely nothing in the process. I do not know why you are failing to understand that "The target's game statistics, including mental ability scores, are replaced by the statistics of the new form." really means what it says; "replace" does not mean "added to"...
There's also the CR restrictions of the spells themselves that make what you're suggesting impossible. Both spells require that the creature the target will become is of a CR/level less than or equal to its current form. The earliest you could naturally get TP is as a level 17 pure casting class. You create your simulacrum, and it's level 17. You attempt to Shapechange it into something with a CR/level less than or equal to 17. If your simulacrum Shapechanged itself into something CR16 or lower, you can't use True Polymorph to change it back. These things only allow lateral/downward adjustments.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.