Okay, bear with me, this is slightly complicated but I would love to hear your thoughts on this!
We have a gnome in our group, and she has a Rust Bag of Tricks. At our last level up, she took the Mounted Combatant feat as she wants to be able to ride the creatures from the Bag of Tricks (having a small size, there are technically six of the creatures she can ride). This made me think about what's involved here.
The Mounted Combat rules say that you can ride a willing creature (the Bag of Tricks creatures are listed as 'friendly to your and your companions' so I don't think this would be a problem). It also says that the creature moves on your turn and can be controlled by you with a Bonus Action, which is where stuff starts to get a bit sticky.
A Controlled Mount moves on your turn - you can command it to move where you want it to go, but it can only take the Dash, Dodge or Disengage action (the player's point is that you can control the creature, therefore you can control it as a mount even if it's not trained to receive a rider). An Uncontrolled Mount moves on its own turn - it moves to where it wants to go and can attack, but as the rider you lose your movement.
However, the Bag of Tricks rules say that you can use a Bonus Action to command how the creature moves and what actions it takes, or to give it a general command such as 'Attack our Enemies'.
Does this mean that you could 'Control' your mount, move it to where you want it to go, take your Attack, and then use your Bonus Action to command your mount to Attack, effectively gaining controlled movement AND two guaranteed attacks (yours and your creatures) by side-stepping the Mounted Combat rules? Or would you rule that the Bonus Action could only be used to command your mount to either Dash, Disengage or Dodge while you're astride it?
"While you’re mounted, you have two options. You can either control the mount or allow it to act independently. Intelligent creatures, such as dragons, act independently."
This interacts interestingly with the Bag of Tricks. Usually in order for the mount to act independently, it retains its own initiative and you just have to kind of go where it wants to go... you can't use your movement on your turn to do anything. But a Bag of Tricks creature, by default, shares its initiative with the one who summoned it. So if the player wants to direct the mount's exact movement they would not be able to get the full benefits of the creature's own attacks and would be allowed to use her bonus action for whatever else she wants. But if she instead directs the mount with her bonus action each round then she can treat it as a creature acting independently. It might act dumber than if the player controlled her mount directly... it might not avoid traps or Attacks of Opportunity. And, of course, her bonus action is consumed any time she needs to give it a new order. But overall, specifically because the Bag of Tricks creature shares its turn with its summoner, this seems like a pretty valid workaround to the usual limitations of mounted combat.
Read "controlled" as "controlled (by riding skill)": if you're guiding your horse (or bear or whatever) around using the sort of physical controls that a rider normally uses on a mount, then it acts on your turn as an extension of your body, providing you movement but not attacking. An uncontrolled mount is one making its own decisions, which you are merely balanced atop of, allowing that mount to attack etc.
But, if you magically have another way of influencing that mounts decisions (a la bag of tricks), then you get the best of both worlds. You don't need to physically control the mount, because magically you can tell it to make the decisions you want it to make. It does what you want while acting independently, so long as you direct it to do so with your bonus action.
Though... I guess you're asking about the reverse (leaving them Controlled, but then also using your bonus to make them attack). Yeah yeah, that works too.
Thanks guys, really appreciate the help! I think I'm just more concerned about it being overpowered, when the rules of Mounted Combat seem to be in place to prevent that, you know?
As a generous DM, I love the idea of my players doing this.
As a guy who grew up on a farm though... just because an animal is "friendly" to you, does not mean it's going to let you ride it. It would take months to get a horse ready to let us ride it... but before that would eat out of our hands and let us brush it. And no way in hell would I try to ride one of our goats or young bulls, even though the goats were loose and would actually play with us as kids.
Hey, if you're the DM and you think it's unbalanced or making the game less fun for the other players, then it's totally fair to restrict the use of the Bag of Tricks when it comes to combat. But personally I think your player should be rewarded for finding a creative use for a magic item she came across... although that doesn't mean you shouldn't up the ante in combat to make up for it.
Remember that the player doesn't directly control the creature from the Bag of Tricks... you do. So while it will obey her commands it could obey them in the most literal interpretation possible, so if you start having more complicated battlefields with difficult terrain or damage dealing hazards she might want to lose that extra attack in order to take direct control. Also keep in mind that she likely doesn't have barding for all the different animals from her bag of tricks, and especially as a smaller race it would be relatively easy for opponents to simply knock her off her mount. Finally, don't be shy about using this trick too... give the group an encounter with a bunch of Goblins riding Wargs, where the Goblins just let the Wargs run wherever they want and take slashes and arrow shots at people around them.
As a generous DM, I love the idea of my players doing this.
As a guy who grew up on a farm though... just because an animal is "friendly" to you, does not mean it's going to let you ride it. It would take months to get a horse ready to let us ride it... but before that would eat out of our hands and let us brush it. And no way in hell would I try to ride one of our goats or young bulls, even though the goats were loose and would actually play with us as kids.
I get what you mean, but the Bag of Tricks magically-created creatures can apparently understand spoken words and obey any spoken instruction without question. So I think it would actually be harder to justify not having that include riding them. Although I suppose they're not necessarily trained to accommodate a rider... so I wouldn't put it past them to throw their rider off purely by accident.
I'm in two minds really - yes, working out that you can ride a Bag of Tricks creature and circumvent the mounted combat rules is great (and kudos the player for imagination), but if it's not reduced to 0 hit points, the creature will be around until next dawn. This means that in any fight she can have two attacks instead of her usual one, increase her speed to that of the creature, and have advantage on all attacks against enemies that are smaller than her creature. I'll have to see how it plays out, but I have a feeling that the other level 8-ers might not get a look in!
Compare versus Find Steed, which takes no magic item, and lets you coordinate with your mount without even needing a bonus action. I don’t think riding your Bag if Tricks is game breaking at 8, it’s just your usual stupid party trick shenanigans.
I'm in two minds really - yes, working out that you can ride a Bag of Tricks creature and circumvent the mounted combat rules is great (and kudos the player for imagination), but if it's not reduced to 0 hit points, the creature will be around until next dawn. This means that in any fight she can have two attacks instead of her usual one, increase her speed to that of the creature, and have advantage on all attacks against enemies that are smaller than her creature. I'll have to see how it plays out, but I have a feeling that the other level 8-ers might not get a look in!
Keep in mind that, even unmounted, they can just summon 3 free creatures at the start of each day. So that's, at minimum, three extra attacks each round even if they don't bother mounting any of them. If anything they're going easy on you if they just bring them out one at a time to use as a mount.
I'm in two minds really - yes, working out that you can ride a Bag of Tricks creature and circumvent the mounted combat rules is great (and kudos the player for imagination), but if it's not reduced to 0 hit points, the creature will be around until next dawn. This means that in any fight she can have two attacks instead of her usual one, increase her speed to that of the creature, and have advantage on all attacks against enemies that are smaller than her creature. I'll have to see how it plays out, but I have a feeling that the other level 8-ers might not get a look in!
I think it'll be fine, and fun! Your player *did* sacrifice an ASI just to get the Feat to do this... I would reward them by letting them. Keep in mind that they need a proper saddle for their mount. Personally I'd have fun being the DM of this - if the Goat got killed last time it was out, then maybe this time it's pissed at your player and starts headbutting them or eating their clothing! If a bear pops, he might spend his full turn next round answering the age old question of "does a bear scat in the woods?". Maybe the mastiff starts uncontrollably humping someone's leg? Oh man....I'm introducing this into my Tuesday game ASAP!!
I'm in two minds really - yes, working out that you can ride a Bag of Tricks creature and circumvent the mounted combat rules is great (and kudos the player for imagination), but if it's not reduced to 0 hit points, the creature will be around until next dawn. This means that in any fight she can have two attacks instead of her usual one, increase her speed to that of the creature, and have advantage on all attacks against enemies that are smaller than her creature. I'll have to see how it plays out, but I have a feeling that the other level 8-ers might not get a look in!
I think it'll be fine, and fun! Your player *did* sacrifice an ASI just to get the Feat to do this... I would reward them by letting them. Keep in mind that they need a proper saddle for their mount. Personally I'd have fun being the DM of this - if the Goat got killed last time it was out, then maybe this time it's pissed at your player and starts headbutting them or eating their clothing! If a bear pops, he might spend his full turn next round answering the age old question of "does a bear scat in the woods?". Maybe the mastiff starts uncontrollably humping someone's leg? Oh man....I'm introducing this into my Tuesday game ASAP!!
Hi all,
Okay, bear with me, this is slightly complicated but I would love to hear your thoughts on this!
We have a gnome in our group, and she has a Rust Bag of Tricks. At our last level up, she took the Mounted Combatant feat as she wants to be able to ride the creatures from the Bag of Tricks (having a small size, there are technically six of the creatures she can ride). This made me think about what's involved here.
The Mounted Combat rules say that you can ride a willing creature (the Bag of Tricks creatures are listed as 'friendly to your and your companions' so I don't think this would be a problem). It also says that the creature moves on your turn and can be controlled by you with a Bonus Action, which is where stuff starts to get a bit sticky.
A Controlled Mount moves on your turn - you can command it to move where you want it to go, but it can only take the Dash, Dodge or Disengage action (the player's point is that you can control the creature, therefore you can control it as a mount even if it's not trained to receive a rider).
An Uncontrolled Mount moves on its own turn - it moves to where it wants to go and can attack, but as the rider you lose your movement.
However, the Bag of Tricks rules say that you can use a Bonus Action to command how the creature moves and what actions it takes, or to give it a general command such as 'Attack our Enemies'.
Does this mean that you could 'Control' your mount, move it to where you want it to go, take your Attack, and then use your Bonus Action to command your mount to Attack, effectively gaining controlled movement AND two guaranteed attacks (yours and your creatures) by side-stepping the Mounted Combat rules? Or would you rule that the Bonus Action could only be used to command your mount to either Dash, Disengage or Dodge while you're astride it?
Thanks!
StC
"While you’re mounted, you have two options. You can either control the mount or allow it to act independently. Intelligent creatures, such as dragons, act independently."
This interacts interestingly with the Bag of Tricks. Usually in order for the mount to act independently, it retains its own initiative and you just have to kind of go where it wants to go... you can't use your movement on your turn to do anything. But a Bag of Tricks creature, by default, shares its initiative with the one who summoned it. So if the player wants to direct the mount's exact movement they would not be able to get the full benefits of the creature's own attacks and would be allowed to use her bonus action for whatever else she wants. But if she instead directs the mount with her bonus action each round then she can treat it as a creature acting independently. It might act dumber than if the player controlled her mount directly... it might not avoid traps or Attacks of Opportunity. And, of course, her bonus action is consumed any time she needs to give it a new order. But overall, specifically because the Bag of Tricks creature shares its turn with its summoner, this seems like a pretty valid workaround to the usual limitations of mounted combat.
Watch Crits for Breakfast, an adults-only RP-Heavy Roll20 Livestream at twitch.tv/afterdisbooty
And now you too can play with the amazing art and assets we use in Roll20 for our campaign at Hazel's Emporium
Read "controlled" as "controlled (by riding skill)": if you're guiding your horse (or bear or whatever) around using the sort of physical controls that a rider normally uses on a mount, then it acts on your turn as an extension of your body, providing you movement but not attacking. An uncontrolled mount is one making its own decisions, which you are merely balanced atop of, allowing that mount to attack etc.
But, if you magically have another way of influencing that mounts decisions (a la bag of tricks), then you get the best of both worlds. You don't need to physically control the mount, because magically you can tell it to make the decisions you want it to make. It does what you want while acting independently, so long as you direct it to do so with your bonus action.
Though... I guess you're asking about the reverse (leaving them Controlled, but then also using your bonus to make them attack). Yeah yeah, that works too.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Thanks guys, really appreciate the help! I think I'm just more concerned about it being overpowered, when the rules of Mounted Combat seem to be in place to prevent that, you know?
As a generous DM, I love the idea of my players doing this.
As a guy who grew up on a farm though... just because an animal is "friendly" to you, does not mean it's going to let you ride it.
It would take months to get a horse ready to let us ride it... but before that would eat out of our hands and let us brush it.
And no way in hell would I try to ride one of our goats or young bulls, even though the goats were loose and would actually play with us as kids.
...cryptographic randomness!
Hey, if you're the DM and you think it's unbalanced or making the game less fun for the other players, then it's totally fair to restrict the use of the Bag of Tricks when it comes to combat. But personally I think your player should be rewarded for finding a creative use for a magic item she came across... although that doesn't mean you shouldn't up the ante in combat to make up for it.
Remember that the player doesn't directly control the creature from the Bag of Tricks... you do. So while it will obey her commands it could obey them in the most literal interpretation possible, so if you start having more complicated battlefields with difficult terrain or damage dealing hazards she might want to lose that extra attack in order to take direct control. Also keep in mind that she likely doesn't have barding for all the different animals from her bag of tricks, and especially as a smaller race it would be relatively easy for opponents to simply knock her off her mount. Finally, don't be shy about using this trick too... give the group an encounter with a bunch of Goblins riding Wargs, where the Goblins just let the Wargs run wherever they want and take slashes and arrow shots at people around them.
Watch Crits for Breakfast, an adults-only RP-Heavy Roll20 Livestream at twitch.tv/afterdisbooty
And now you too can play with the amazing art and assets we use in Roll20 for our campaign at Hazel's Emporium
I get what you mean, but the Bag of Tricks magically-created creatures can apparently understand spoken words and obey any spoken instruction without question. So I think it would actually be harder to justify not having that include riding them. Although I suppose they're not necessarily trained to accommodate a rider... so I wouldn't put it past them to throw their rider off purely by accident.
Watch Crits for Breakfast, an adults-only RP-Heavy Roll20 Livestream at twitch.tv/afterdisbooty
And now you too can play with the amazing art and assets we use in Roll20 for our campaign at Hazel's Emporium
This is all great stuff, thanks all! :)
I'm in two minds really - yes, working out that you can ride a Bag of Tricks creature and circumvent the mounted combat rules is great (and kudos the player for imagination), but if it's not reduced to 0 hit points, the creature will be around until next dawn. This means that in any fight she can have two attacks instead of her usual one, increase her speed to that of the creature, and have advantage on all attacks against enemies that are smaller than her creature. I'll have to see how it plays out, but I have a feeling that the other level 8-ers might not get a look in!
Compare versus Find Steed, which takes no magic item, and lets you coordinate with your mount without even needing a bonus action. I don’t think riding your Bag if Tricks is game breaking at 8, it’s just your usual stupid party trick shenanigans.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Keep in mind that, even unmounted, they can just summon 3 free creatures at the start of each day. So that's, at minimum, three extra attacks each round even if they don't bother mounting any of them. If anything they're going easy on you if they just bring them out one at a time to use as a mount.
Watch Crits for Breakfast, an adults-only RP-Heavy Roll20 Livestream at twitch.tv/afterdisbooty
And now you too can play with the amazing art and assets we use in Roll20 for our campaign at Hazel's Emporium
I think it'll be fine, and fun!
Your player *did* sacrifice an ASI just to get the Feat to do this... I would reward them by letting them.
Keep in mind that they need a proper saddle for their mount.
Personally I'd have fun being the DM of this - if the Goat got killed last time it was out, then maybe this time it's pissed at your player and starts headbutting them or eating their clothing! If a bear pops, he might spend his full turn next round answering the age old question of "does a bear scat in the woods?". Maybe the mastiff starts uncontrollably humping someone's leg? Oh man....I'm introducing this into my Tuesday game ASAP!!
...cryptographic randomness!
Bahahaha, that actually sounds hilarious! :D
Again, thanks for all your input, everyone - I really appreciate your help! :)