...The target can move only by pushing or pulling against a fixed object or surface within reach (such as a wall or a ceiling), which allows it to move as if it were climbing. You can change the target's altitude by up to 20 feet in either direction on your turn. If you are the target, you can move up or down as part of your move.Otherwise, you can use your action to move the target, which must remain within the spell's range....
The what now?
If we're talking about a different creature it seems that the red and green part combine to mean: they can't move themselves unless the can push or pull against a fixed object, to allow them to move as if climbing. But you the caster can use your action to move the target anywhere within range (60 feet from yourself).
If we're talking about ourselves though.... the blue part make it look like you can walk normally as part of your move, without needing to push/pull/climb, just walking on empty air. Do you also still have the green part, where you can use your action to move yourself.... 60 more?
There's a couple different ways to read "otherwise" in that sentence, so I'm not quite sure if its a (red or blue)+green or (red+green) or blue situation. How do you all read it?
The way I read it is the only movement allowed by the spell effect is up and down, limited to 20 feet on each of your turns. Other movement (lateral, up/down not from the effect) is limited by the push/pull sentence. If you are the target, you can do the 20 feet up/down using your own movement, if another creature is the target, you do so with your action. The 60 foot range is the max distance a target can be from you that would allow you to move it
so the caster could move 20 feet up or down unsupported (which uses their movement) and then could move additional distance using their remaining speed, by pushing/pulling on an object or surface
So you're saying that instead of how I broke it up, it's instead:
The target (whether its another creature or yourself) can only move by pushing/pulling/climbing objects
On your turn, you can change its elevation 20 feet
If it's yourself, that 20 foot elevation change can be accomplished using your movement speed
If its a different creature, that 20 foot elevation change takes an action, and can't take them out of the range of the spell.
Is that it? That.... kind of makes sense, though I'd always thought that Warlocks got Ascendant Step because it let them just moonwalk through the air. This reading is... not as good, requiring a self-casting levitator to descend 20 feet, scurry along the ground, then raise 20 feet if they want to change aerial position.... actually, can they even do that? 20 feet might be a hard cap, meaning even if you Dash to get more scurry distance, you're stuck on the ground after descending 20?
The spell is useful if you want to turn an enemy into a piñata, climb a shear vertical surface with little effort, or give yourself a height advantage during combat where space allows.
For combat sniping, it's much less useful than fly. The fact you can combine the 20 feet elevation "as part of your move", is decent. Note it doesn't say that it takes any of your speed, it just happens at the same time. So you still have all your walking speed. It also says "on your turn" but it doesn't say all at once. So you it seems you could, say, be 10 feet in the air, drop 10 feet, move your full move, raise yourself 10 feet in the air, on your turn. That's not bad.
OTOH, if you're hanging on a wall, you can push/pull yourself to "climb". So I guess that means half speed move along the wall (and you get to go up/down 20 feet as well).
Adjudicating the climbing section with a target that isn't the caster is a bit tricky for me .. because I always assumed Levitate held the target at the altitude the caster decides, but this wording doesn't seem to prevent a target from climbing up or down. So if you levitate an enemy and it can grab the wall, it seems like it can pull itself back down on its turn. (Of course, on your turn, you can put it back up in the air, and if it leaves the wall to come after you, it'll be dangling in mid air on your turn).
The fact you can combine the 20 feet elevation "as part of your move", is decent. Note it doesn't say that it takes any of your speed, it just happens at the same time. So you still have all your walking speed.
This is true on the turn you cast the spell. Casting the spell gives you a lift without spending movement.
...The target can move only by pushing or pulling against a fixed object or surface within reach (such as a wall or a ceiling), which allows it to move as if it were climbing. You can change the target's altitude by up to 20 feet in either direction on your turn. If you are the target, you can move up or down as part of your move.Otherwise, you can use your action to move the target, which must remain within the spell's range....
The what now?
If we're talking about a different creature it seems that the red and green part combine to mean: they can't move themselves unless the can push or pull against a fixed object, to allow them to move as if climbing. But you the caster can use your action to move the target anywhere within range (60 feet from yourself).
If we're talking about ourselves though.... the blue part make it look like you can walk normally as part of your move, without needing to push/pull/climb, just walking on empty air. Do you also still have the green part, where you can use your action to move yourself.... 60 more?
There's a couple different ways to read "otherwise" in that sentence, so I'm not quite sure if its a (red or blue)+green or (red+green) or blue situation. How do you all read it?
I interpret it as follows: you can move yourself 20 feet up or down as part of your move, i.e. for free, in addition to any movement you spend climbing.
The target can move only by pushing or pulling against a fixed object or surface within reach (such as a wall or a ceiling), which allows it to move as if it were climbing.
Would you say this means that moving in the manner described above is considered climbing and if you don't have a climbing speed, the movement is done at additional cost?
The target can move only by pushing or pulling against a fixed object or surface within reach (such as a wall or a ceiling), which allows it to move as if it were climbing.
Would you say this means that moving in the manner described above is considered climbing and if you don't have a climbing speed, the movement is done at additional cost?
That's how I would interpret it, so 2 feet for every 1 foot moved, unless you have a climbing speed, at which point it is the climbing speed.
The wording doesn't explicitly say that the caster moves up/down using their speed, just that they can do so as part of their move. I've always read it though as shorthand for requiring the use of speed (since they use similar shorthand in other areas) but I guess I could understand someone reading it differently. I'm sticking with it requiring using your speed though.
First turn is free though, since that is covered in the spell effect. So at my table, first turn you get 20' up and your full movement to "climb". Subsequent turns you get your full movement to go up to 20' up/down unsupported, to "climb", or a combination.
I think the caster just 1-for-1 raises or lowers 20 using movement speed. It’s the lateral movement using an object that is treated as climbing.
That would be weird, right? You're suggesting that if the levitation target is restrained by a net, the target can be moved 20 feet vertically as an action by the caster unless the caster is levitating themselves, in which case the net stops the vertical movement entirely - there's no way to levitate up or down anymore. There's no indication in the spell that it's intended to be worse when self-targeted than when not - I think the intent is that when you levitate yourself you don't need an action any more, but you don't incur additional costs, like spending movement.
I think the caster just 1-for-1 raises or lowers 20 using movement speed. It’s the lateral movement using an object that is treated as climbing.
That would be weird, right? You're suggesting that if the levitation target is restrained by a net, the target can be moved 20 feet vertically as an action by the caster unless the caster is levitating themselves, in which case the net stops the vertical movement entirely - there's no way to levitate up or down anymore. There's no indication in the spell that it's intended to be worse when self-targeted than when not - I think the intent is that when you levitate yourself you don't need an action any more, but you don't incur additional costs, like spending movement.
I mean, the switch from action to movement already makes the caster version of the spell more powerful, since you are changing a required resource from the most valuable and flexible turn resource in the game (your action) to a less valuable and much less flexible one (movement).
I do agree it is a weird side effect though, and one they could have avoided by adding a few words to the spell description: either (you can move up or down as part of your move, which doesn't require using your own movement speeds) for your interpretation or (you can move up or down as part of your move. This movement cannot be reduced by conditions like restrained that reduce your movement speed to 0) for mine.
I think the caster just 1-for-1 raises or lowers 20 using movement speed. It’s the lateral movement using an object that is treated as climbing.
That's how i see it too. As part of your move, the spell let you move up or down only. Basically it's action economy so the caster doesn't to have to use its action when it's self utility as opposed to offensively on an enemy. But anyone levitated can only move laterally by pushing or pulling themselves from a surface within reach.
I think the caster just 1-for-1 raises or lowers 20 using movement speed. It’s the lateral movement using an object that is treated as climbing.
That would be weird, right? You're suggesting that if the levitation target is restrained by a net, the target can be moved 20 feet vertically as an action by the caster unless the caster is levitating themselves, in which case the net stops the vertical movement entirely - there's no way to levitate up or down anymore. There's no indication in the spell that it's intended to be worse when self-targeted than when not - I think the intent is that when you levitate yourself you don't need an action any more, but you don't incur additional costs, like spending movement.
I think if the caster was restrained or grappled then it is correct that they can't use their movement to levitate up and away. However, I also think it would then be appropriate to allow them to use their action to levitate themselves. It would be a valid interpretation of the "otherwise" clause; that it kicks in as an option not just when you are not the target, but also when you are the target but do not or cannot use the "levitate as move" option. The phrase structure is: If A then you may do B. Otherwise you may do C. So it could be you may do C either when A is not true, or when A is true but you did not do B. Both options could be covered by the "otherwise".
To visualise the situation, I imagine levitating with your move to be like a gentle kick off the ground in zero G, or an instinctual glide up while your attention is on aiming and firing the longbow you're holding. Meanwhile, using your action to move something is like a force user lifting an X-Wing from a swamp - actual concentration and effort. If you are in a net or snagged in entangling vines then you can't pull off the graceful glide plus seamless longbow shot, but you should be able to focus your efforts and use your own action to hoist yourself up out of that mess like a levitating sack of potatoes.
I have always gotten a smile out of the potential ramifications of floating harmlessly to the ground, regardless of how far that distance is. And also, how picky do you think the spell is about the ground? Like, if there was a house under me and I dropped the spell, would I just slowly float down with the force of a battering ram gently (lol) smashing anything that was between me and the ground like some kind of juggernaut Mary Poppins?
Interestingly, the spell wording doesn't restrict the "move as if climbing" part to lateral movement (although I personally have always played it that way). If you could grab onto a wall, it seems like you could pull yourself down (or up?). That doesn't really feel like it's in the spirit of the spell though. Although if you imagine it to be some sort of magical buoyancy like a force pulling you toward an altitude, and you're exerting force constantly to hold yourself to a different altitude, I guess I can see that. So if you climb down to the ground, but let go of the wall, you "fall" back up to the altitude the caster had previously set. Of course, that's a lot of imaginary mechanics that I might or might not use for dramatic effect, and not something I'm advocating for how the spell is intended to work.
I could go either way on whether the caster expends their speed as part of levitating themselves up or down. Imagining a caster with a speed of 30 and no climb speed, it means they can levitate 20 feet up and then climb 5 more feet, instead of, say, levitating 20 feet and climbing 15 more feet (laterally or vertically is open for debate).
The problem with having it take your speed, is when your speed is reduced by some effect, as others have pointed out. And yeah, allowing a caster who is also the target to use their action on themselves in the event they're slowed or whatever could be a decent workaround.
The other thing that used to work in previous editions was tying a rope to the target and towing them around. This might work if you allow that the rope counts as a "fixed object".
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More unclear language, what are people's thoughts about how far a caster can move when they have cast Levitate on themself?
Levitate:
The what now?
If we're talking about a different creature it seems that the red and green part combine to mean: they can't move themselves unless the can push or pull against a fixed object, to allow them to move as if climbing. But you the caster can use your action to move the target anywhere within range (60 feet from yourself).
If we're talking about ourselves though.... the blue part make it look like you can walk normally as part of your move, without needing to push/pull/climb, just walking on empty air. Do you also still have the green part, where you can use your action to move yourself.... 60 more?
There's a couple different ways to read "otherwise" in that sentence, so I'm not quite sure if its a (red or blue)+green or (red+green) or blue situation. How do you all read it?
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The way I read it is the only movement allowed by the spell effect is up and down, limited to 20 feet on each of your turns. Other movement (lateral, up/down not from the effect) is limited by the push/pull sentence. If you are the target, you can do the 20 feet up/down using your own movement, if another creature is the target, you do so with your action. The 60 foot range is the max distance a target can be from you that would allow you to move it
so the caster could move 20 feet up or down unsupported (which uses their movement) and then could move additional distance using their remaining speed, by pushing/pulling on an object or surface
So you're saying that instead of how I broke it up, it's instead:
Is that it? That.... kind of makes sense, though I'd always thought that Warlocks got Ascendant Step because it let them just moonwalk through the air. This reading is... not as good, requiring a self-casting levitator to descend 20 feet, scurry along the ground, then raise 20 feet if they want to change aerial position.... actually, can they even do that? 20 feet might be a hard cap, meaning even if you Dash to get more scurry distance, you're stuck on the ground after descending 20?
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The spell is useful if you want to turn an enemy into a piñata, climb a shear vertical surface with little effort, or give yourself a height advantage during combat where space allows.
Not saying it isn’t a useful spell. Just not as useful for combat sniping as I’d thought.
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Yep. It's great against a big melee enemy.
For combat sniping, it's much less useful than fly. The fact you can combine the 20 feet elevation "as part of your move", is decent. Note it doesn't say that it takes any of your speed, it just happens at the same time. So you still have all your walking speed. It also says "on your turn" but it doesn't say all at once. So you it seems you could, say, be 10 feet in the air, drop 10 feet, move your full move, raise yourself 10 feet in the air, on your turn. That's not bad.
OTOH, if you're hanging on a wall, you can push/pull yourself to "climb". So I guess that means half speed move along the wall (and you get to go up/down 20 feet as well).
Adjudicating the climbing section with a target that isn't the caster is a bit tricky for me .. because I always assumed Levitate held the target at the altitude the caster decides, but this wording doesn't seem to prevent a target from climbing up or down. So if you levitate an enemy and it can grab the wall, it seems like it can pull itself back down on its turn. (Of course, on your turn, you can put it back up in the air, and if it leaves the wall to come after you, it'll be dangling in mid air on your turn).
This is true on the turn you cast the spell. Casting the spell gives you a lift without spending movement.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
A levitated creature is held in suspension so unless there is a surface it can reach to pull or push itself, it cannot move.
The caster can change the target’s altitude vertically as an action or move if it is the target itself.
I think its useful for fights:
1. 20ft up is generally out of most creatures melee range.
2. Losing Concentration you gently float to the ground and do not fall.
Its Ascendant Step on Warlock is very good for this as you can fly up 20ft and chuck EB at everything if you are out of slots.
I interpret it as follows: you can move yourself 20 feet up or down as part of your move, i.e. for free, in addition to any movement you spend climbing.
Would you say this means that moving in the manner described above is considered climbing and if you don't have a climbing speed, the movement is done at additional cost?
"Not all those who wander are lost"
That's how I would interpret it, so 2 feet for every 1 foot moved, unless you have a climbing speed, at which point it is the climbing speed.
I think the caster just 1-for-1 raises or lowers 20 using movement speed. It’s the lateral movement using an object that is treated as climbing.
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The wording doesn't explicitly say that the caster moves up/down using their speed, just that they can do so as part of their move. I've always read it though as shorthand for requiring the use of speed (since they use similar shorthand in other areas) but I guess I could understand someone reading it differently. I'm sticking with it requiring using your speed though.
First turn is free though, since that is covered in the spell effect. So at my table, first turn you get 20' up and your full movement to "climb". Subsequent turns you get your full movement to go up to 20' up/down unsupported, to "climb", or a combination.
That would be weird, right? You're suggesting that if the levitation target is restrained by a net, the target can be moved 20 feet vertically as an action by the caster unless the caster is levitating themselves, in which case the net stops the vertical movement entirely - there's no way to levitate up or down anymore. There's no indication in the spell that it's intended to be worse when self-targeted than when not - I think the intent is that when you levitate yourself you don't need an action any more, but you don't incur additional costs, like spending movement.
I mean, the switch from action to movement already makes the caster version of the spell more powerful, since you are changing a required resource from the most valuable and flexible turn resource in the game (your action) to a less valuable and much less flexible one (movement).
I do agree it is a weird side effect though, and one they could have avoided by adding a few words to the spell description: either (you can move up or down as part of your move, which doesn't require using your own movement speeds) for your interpretation or (you can move up or down as part of your move. This movement cannot be reduced by conditions like restrained that reduce your movement speed to 0) for mine.
That's how i see it too. As part of your move, the spell let you move up or down only. Basically it's action economy so the caster doesn't to have to use its action when it's self utility as opposed to offensively on an enemy. But anyone levitated can only move laterally by pushing or pulling themselves from a surface within reach.
I think if the caster was restrained or grappled then it is correct that they can't use their movement to levitate up and away. However, I also think it would then be appropriate to allow them to use their action to levitate themselves. It would be a valid interpretation of the "otherwise" clause; that it kicks in as an option not just when you are not the target, but also when you are the target but do not or cannot use the "levitate as move" option. The phrase structure is: If A then you may do B. Otherwise you may do C. So it could be you may do C either when A is not true, or when A is true but you did not do B. Both options could be covered by the "otherwise".
To visualise the situation, I imagine levitating with your move to be like a gentle kick off the ground in zero G, or an instinctual glide up while your attention is on aiming and firing the longbow you're holding. Meanwhile, using your action to move something is like a force user lifting an X-Wing from a swamp - actual concentration and effort. If you are in a net or snagged in entangling vines then you can't pull off the graceful glide plus seamless longbow shot, but you should be able to focus your efforts and use your own action to hoist yourself up out of that mess like a levitating sack of potatoes.
I have always gotten a smile out of the potential ramifications of floating harmlessly to the ground, regardless of how far that distance is. And also, how picky do you think the spell is about the ground? Like, if there was a house under me and I dropped the spell, would I just slowly float down with the force of a battering ram gently (lol) smashing anything that was between me and the ground like some kind of juggernaut Mary Poppins?
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Interestingly, the spell wording doesn't restrict the "move as if climbing" part to lateral movement (although I personally have always played it that way). If you could grab onto a wall, it seems like you could pull yourself down (or up?). That doesn't really feel like it's in the spirit of the spell though. Although if you imagine it to be some sort of magical buoyancy like a force pulling you toward an altitude, and you're exerting force constantly to hold yourself to a different altitude, I guess I can see that. So if you climb down to the ground, but let go of the wall, you "fall" back up to the altitude the caster had previously set.
Of course, that's a lot of imaginary mechanics that I might or might not use for dramatic effect, and not something I'm advocating for how the spell is intended to work.
I could go either way on whether the caster expends their speed as part of levitating themselves up or down.
Imagining a caster with a speed of 30 and no climb speed, it means they can levitate 20 feet up and then climb 5 more feet, instead of, say, levitating 20 feet and climbing 15 more feet (laterally or vertically is open for debate).
The problem with having it take your speed, is when your speed is reduced by some effect, as others have pointed out. And yeah, allowing a caster who is also the target to use their action on themselves in the event they're slowed or whatever could be a decent workaround.
The other thing that used to work in previous editions was tying a rope to the target and towing them around. This might work if you allow that the rope counts as a "fixed object".