The more I look at 5e's surprise, the more confused I get.
Here's what I know:
1. "Surprised" in 5e is a condition that lasts for the first round of combat, eliminating their actions and movement.
2. You get the surprised condition by failing to notice a hidden enemy (their stealth beat your Passive Perception)
3. If your stealth beats the Passive Perception of SOME enemies, but not others, the ones you beat will be surprised, while the ones you did NOT beat will NOT be surprised.
So example:
1. Party knows a bandit camp is coming up where there are 3 bandits and their pet wolf (Bandit PP=10, Wolf PP=13)
2. Party of 3 rolls stealth: Member A = 11, Member B = 12, Member C =10
3. In this case, the Bandits start combat surprised, and the Wolf does not
Correct?
Here's where I'm confused:
1. Same Bandit camp (Bandit PP = 10, Wolf PP = 13)
2. Party Rolls stealth: A = 9, B = 15, C = 18
3. The enemies Notice Party member A. So they are not surprised.
Confusion: Since surprised is like a condition, the enemies either HAVE it, or DON'T. They cannot be surprised by B and C, but not of A. So does this mean that in order to inflict surprise at all, EVERY single party member must succeed their stealth check? So in a party of 6 with one assassin rogue, that rogue will likely NEVER get their level 3 ability to proc because odds are SOMEONE will fail the check?
Ok! So what I'm getting from this is that surprise is heavily reliant on DM interpretation of the scene.
So in a game with a DM like mine where the scenario usually goes:
DM: How are you moving forward?
Party: We're going quietly in X order.
DM: Roll for stealth.
Party: *rolls* Paladin fails
DM: Paladin steps on a stick, enemy aware, roll initiative.
Surprise is going to be rare. But in a game where the DM takes positioning into better consideration, it would come up more.
Next session, if we sneak, I think I'll try something like your paladin scenario. Our party's rogue/bard is our usual scout but most of us are abysmal at stealth so her invisibility+boots of elvenkind+expertise is often wasted by the rest of the party's bumbling around. I think I'll suggest we have some significant distance between us to avoid ruining her stealth and see how the DM runs that.
The level 10 bard/rogue is currently 8/2 and is debating subclasses and while assassin works the best flavor-wise, we also know our DM RARELY gives us surprise an she doesn't want her subclass to feel wasted.
Yes, surprise is built to be rare on purpose. Where it works best, IMO, is if your rogue can take out a patrolling guard on their own. That is where the feature can shine.
Just as a note though - the assassin gains a benefit in combat even without surprise. They have advantage on attack rolls against any creature that hasn't taken a turn in the combat yet.
If you compare it to other subclasses, most rogues get zero added damage from their level 3 feature. The assassin gets a free source of advantage in almost every combat, which actually means their damage output is higher than most rogues even without surprise.
The level 9 and 13 are much more disappointing, but your player is far less likely to reach those features.
Mainly just how the mechanics operate, how many prebuilt adventures are set up, and how many groups function. Crawford also goes into a bit of detail on one of his podcasts, talking about how its not generally good to just give away surprise all the time unless the group has truly prepared a strong ambush. Certainly, some groups and DMs could make it happen much more often, but I don't think its a stretch to say that the average D&D group isn't consistently surprising enemies.
This is true, but then any rogue/assassin will get advantage on his first attack by attacking from a hidden position, so that benefit is often wasted.
It all depends how combats are built, who the adversaries are, how the DM is playing them, the environment, etc.
Usually only ranged rogues, and it wastes their bonus action (which is often a drop in damage for many builds).
And like you said, you won't always have a clean way to hide - it can depend on the scenario, the environment, etc. Sometimes you can be hidden before combat starts, but that leans more into ambushes and surprises, which again - the assassin gains bonus damage to. In almost every scenario, the assassin gains an offensive edge from their feature, unless they roll bottom of the initiative.
Yeah, the rules make surprise hard on purpose. You have to first see an enemy before they see you (which already requires you to be sneaking/scouting), then the entire party has to succeed a stealth roll (that is like quadruple disadvantage).
But surprise is also super powerful. The fact that it is easier for small groups compared to large is primarily a balance thing. Enemy creatures can do it too, and you don't want to have 8 attacks made on you before you can even move away (let alone draw your weapons and shields).
Yeah, the rules make surprise hard on purpose. You have to first see an enemy before they see you (which already requires you to be sneaking/scouting), then the entire party has to succeed a stealth roll (that is like quadruple disadvantage).
Or, you know, you could be playing in what I would not even be calling a clever fashion but a normal one in dangerous environment, with a scout ahead so that the noisy people in the party are beyond detection range but not your scout(s). The game does not make it difficult, the way you play it might make it difficult if you are just rolling dices and hoping for the best...
Right, so... Exactly what I said then?
I already mentioned scouts, which fun fact, in order to move stealthily have to move at a slower pace, which means the rest of the party would also have to move slower, and thus would also be moving stealthily.
If you travel at a normal pace, you can't be stealthy, thus it would be impossible to notice enemies before being notices yourself, and then it would just be splitting the party by having a scout.
And in order to get surprise with the noisy party members participating in the battle, they need to roll stealth too. Or you could have the scout start the battle without the rest of the party and hope that 1 extra turn makes up for the fact that they are alone.
I really don't know what you are even trying to suggest with your reply by telling me to do what I already listed as a requirement.
Yeah, the rules make surprise hard on purpose. You have to first see an enemy before they see you (which already requires you to be sneaking/scouting), then the entire party has to succeed a stealth roll (that is like quadruple disadvantage).
Or, you know, you could be playing in what I would not even be calling a clever fashion but a normal one in dangerous environment, with a scout ahead so that the noisy people in the party are beyond detection range but not your scout(s). The game does not make it difficult, the way you play it might make it difficult if you are just rolling dices and hoping for the best...
Right, so... Exactly what I said then?
Huh, no ? Why would the entire party need to succeed at a stealth roll ? Why "quadruple disadvantage" then ?
I already mentioned scouts, which fun fact, in order to move stealthily have to move at a slower pace, which means the rest of the party would also have to move slower, and thus would also be moving stealthily.
Actually it depends on the circumstances. If you are travelling (long distance), the entire party is moving at a slower pace anyway. But if you are doing tactical movement, being stealthy does not impose any penalty to movement (I know, I don't like it either, so I feel free as a DM to impose disadvantage to running scouts, call me nasty... ).
If you travel at a normal pace, you can't be stealthy, thus it would be impossible to notice enemies before being notices yourself, and then it would just be splitting the party by having a scout.
The fact that you
And in order to get surprise with the noisy party members participating in the battle, they need to roll stealth too. Or you could have the scout start the battle without the rest of the party and hope that 1 extra turn makes up for the fact that they are alone.
No you don't. The scout does NOT have to engage the enemies alone. He can, you know, come back (and I will add, without having to make a new stealth check, so no additional chance to be discovered), make a plan, give the advantage on stealth checks for the others, make them ready to rush using spells, finding longer distance ambushing spots, etc. He can even sneak back in still with the same stealth check and no additional chance to be detected.
I really don't know what you are even trying to suggest with your reply by telling me to do what I already listed as a requirement.
I'm trying to suggest that all surprise is not achieved by travelling at normal pace along a road, that's all. It could be tactical movement, or you COULD, if you want to be careful, travel at a slower pace so that you can have a scout ahead, and the party not having to make stealth checks.
So, it is not THE GAME that makes surprise difficult, it's the way it is played. If your party is always travelling at normal speed in dangerous territory, they get what they deserve, no surprise on their side, and possibly surprise from the ambushers (which is not that hard to achieve, if they have lookouts).
So no, surprise should not be hard because the game makes it so. It can only be hard if the party and the adversaries play dumb as bricks in a dangerous environment.
All of the parts where you are trying to argue with me are just saying the same thing I said but longer or adding additional details that go with what I already said and not against it. So I still don't know how you are running surprise where it doesn't require every party member to succeed a stealth check.
I guess the only thong you wrote that wasn't agreeing with everything I said was your last paragraph, so I'll address that here: 4 or more creatures having to all succeed a check for anyone to benefit can not be made easier by doing all of the steps required to even make that roll in the first place. Your entire argument against me has basically amounted to: "Carving an intricate ice sculpture is easy as long as your freeze water."
"When a number of individuals are trying to accompolish something as a group, the DM might ask for a group ability check. In such a situation, the characters who are skilled at a particular task help cover those who aren't.To make a group ability check, everyone in the group makes the ability check. If at least half the group succeeds, the whole group succeeds. Otherwise, the group fails."
If the whole party tries to creep up on a bandit camp then the rogues ability will help offset the paladins disadvantage.
All of the parts where you are trying to argue with me are just saying the same thing I said but longer or adding additional details that go with what I already said and not against it. So I still don't know how you are running surprise where it doesn't require every party member to succeed a stealth check.
Very simply: does your DM require a stealth check from party members who are out of sight and out of hearing range when combat starts ? Straight roll ? No advantage or even auto-success ?
Everyone rolls initiative unless they are impossibly far away (would not be able to enter the fight even if they dashed for 4 turns).
How you act on your turn decides how the combatant react once you enter the fray. If you were trying to stealth up I would have you roll a stealth check vs the passive perception of the combatants. Any one you beat you are Hidden from but they are not going to be surprised again as they are already in combat. You would get ADV on your first attack and nothing more.
If you just dash into the fight without trying to be stealthy I am not sure why you would have an advantage other than you get to help your party when they need you to.
All of the parts where you are trying to argue with me are just saying the same thing I said but longer or adding additional details that go with what I already said and not against it. So I still don't know how you are running surprise where it doesn't require every party member to succeed a stealth check.
Very simply: does your DM require a stealth check from party members who are out of sight and out of hearing range when combat starts ? Straight roll ? No advantage or even auto-success ?
Everyone rolls initiative unless they are impossibly far away (would not be able to enter the fight even if they dashed for 4 turns).
Which rule are you referring to ?
Second, even before rolling initiative, the combattants may position themselves, using stealth or just being not detectable by being too far away, behind a door, inside a silence spell, etc.
Or is it again a question of "I don't care what you do, I don't care where you are as long as you are in the same dungeon/city/plane, if the rules say that you have to roll stealth vs. perception, you have to do it ?"
No rule in particular....just how I would do it.
If you are using stealth before the combat I would have you roll a stealth check to see how good you are doing it. If you are far out from combat enough to not warrant that then I would do what I said above. If you roll initiative before they get there its not likely they will be surprised by another combatant entering the fray...****y not see you and you get a momentary advantage against them.
Seems like there is no real hard set rule on how to handle it.
Secondly no need to be abrasive...not sure why you would lead any discussion off with that as that's just rude.
If you are using stealth before the combat I would have you roll a stealth check to see how good you are doing it. If you are far out from combat enough to not warrant that then I would do what I said above. If you roll initiative before they get there its not likely they will be surprised by another combatant entering the fray...****y not see you and you get a momentary advantage against them.
Seems like there is no real hard set rule on how to handle it.
Secondly no need to be abrasive...not sure why you would lead any discussion off with that as that's just rude.
I'm sorry, it's just that I'm surprised all the time by the kind of omniscience that you seem to attribute to the characters in your games. Perception does not mean seeing or hearing people scores of meters away behind doors.
In our groups, we try to take into account all the environment factors when deciding stealth. If the paladin is 20 meters away behind a door while the rogue (who has a really good stealth modifier) sneaks right behind the guard to stab him in the back, when combat starts, the adversaries are going to be surprised most of the time.
This is because, to sneak up to the enemy, the rogue wil have already rolled a stealth check and have beaten the perception of the adversaries, and that stealth check stays valid until the rogue is discovered or stops hiding (RAW). As for the paladin, he will probably not even have to roll a stealth check, there is no way he will have been heard that far away behind a door.
So our DMs will always rule that he auto succeed at his stealth check, and the adversaries will be surprised (he will not even mention this, by the way, everything will assume that's the case because, frankly, that was the exact point of leaving him 20 meters away behind a door). But he is just a dash away form the fight, and will run initiative as everyone and be there at the end of the first round.
Of course, if the paladin wants to sneak in closer, or there is no door, we will find an alternative plan, including people helping him be more discreet, using a silence spell, etc.
Anyway, my point is that it is actually fairly easy for a party to achieve surprise. And noting that, if the adversaries do their job properly, they too can defend well. There could be sentries, seeing each other so that if one falls to surprise during a round, the others have time to prepare. Or magical protections, a simple alarm spell is enough to detect a lot of rogues, etc.
Once combat starts (initiative is rolled) that's when you determine surprise. If you are in the area and effectively hidden enough to warrant it sure you can have surprise. But if you try to come in a later round and try to gain surprise after everyone has already acted then no you will not get surprise regardless of how well hidden you were.
Once combat starts (initiative is rolled) that's when you determine surprise. If you are in the area and effectively hidden enough to warrant it sure you can have surprise. But if you try to come in a later round and try to gain surprise after everyone has already acted then no you will not get surprise regardless of how well hidden you were.
On that, I fully agree, this is what the RAW says.
After that, I think we will probably agree that the number of cases in which combattants come in at a later stage is small, but I still regret that the game does not consider this and allow for some element of surprise when it happens. Of course, combattants involved in the fight will not be surprised in the sense that they should not lose a turn (although cinematically, it could be interesting, then standing and gaping in surprise).
We house rule it in our games, to make it interesting, just as we allow readied actions before the combat starts so that it flows more cinematically and logically, and what we do depends on the exact circumstances, but some of our players roleplay their surprise very well in that kind of circumstances.
Thats why I would likely grant ADV for those who came in after the fact and joined the fray if they took the cautious/stealthy approach. However, they would need to use a stealth check. If the paladin was using something other than heavy concealment (Spell, distraction, or some other feature) I would likely impose DIS on the passive perception of the creature and impose a -5 penalty.
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The more I look at 5e's surprise, the more confused I get.
Here's what I know:
1. "Surprised" in 5e is a condition that lasts for the first round of combat, eliminating their actions and movement.
2. You get the surprised condition by failing to notice a hidden enemy (their stealth beat your Passive Perception)
3. If your stealth beats the Passive Perception of SOME enemies, but not others, the ones you beat will be surprised, while the ones you did NOT beat will NOT be surprised.
So example:
1. Party knows a bandit camp is coming up where there are 3 bandits and their pet wolf (Bandit PP=10, Wolf PP=13)
2. Party of 3 rolls stealth: Member A = 11, Member B = 12, Member C =10
3. In this case, the Bandits start combat surprised, and the Wolf does not
Correct?
Here's where I'm confused:
1. Same Bandit camp (Bandit PP = 10, Wolf PP = 13)
2. Party Rolls stealth: A = 9, B = 15, C = 18
3. The enemies Notice Party member A. So they are not surprised.
Confusion: Since surprised is like a condition, the enemies either HAVE it, or DON'T. They cannot be surprised by B and C, but not of A. So does this mean that in order to inflict surprise at all, EVERY single party member must succeed their stealth check? So in a party of 6 with one assassin rogue, that rogue will likely NEVER get their level 3 ability to proc because odds are SOMEONE will fail the check?
I think this is RAW, but it feels kinda lame lol.
Ok! So what I'm getting from this is that surprise is heavily reliant on DM interpretation of the scene.
So in a game with a DM like mine where the scenario usually goes:
DM: How are you moving forward?
Party: We're going quietly in X order.
DM: Roll for stealth.
Party: *rolls* Paladin fails
DM: Paladin steps on a stick, enemy aware, roll initiative.
Surprise is going to be rare. But in a game where the DM takes positioning into better consideration, it would come up more.
Next session, if we sneak, I think I'll try something like your paladin scenario. Our party's rogue/bard is our usual scout but most of us are abysmal at stealth so her invisibility+boots of elvenkind+expertise is often wasted by the rest of the party's bumbling around. I think I'll suggest we have some significant distance between us to avoid ruining her stealth and see how the DM runs that.
The level 10 bard/rogue is currently 8/2 and is debating subclasses and while assassin works the best flavor-wise, we also know our DM RARELY gives us surprise an she doesn't want her subclass to feel wasted.
Yes, surprise is built to be rare on purpose. Where it works best, IMO, is if your rogue can take out a patrolling guard on their own. That is where the feature can shine.
Just as a note though - the assassin gains a benefit in combat even without surprise. They have advantage on attack rolls against any creature that hasn't taken a turn in the combat yet.
If you compare it to other subclasses, most rogues get zero added damage from their level 3 feature. The assassin gets a free source of advantage in almost every combat, which actually means their damage output is higher than most rogues even without surprise.
The level 9 and 13 are much more disappointing, but your player is far less likely to reach those features.
Mainly just how the mechanics operate, how many prebuilt adventures are set up, and how many groups function. Crawford also goes into a bit of detail on one of his podcasts, talking about how its not generally good to just give away surprise all the time unless the group has truly prepared a strong ambush. Certainly, some groups and DMs could make it happen much more often, but I don't think its a stretch to say that the average D&D group isn't consistently surprising enemies.
Usually only ranged rogues, and it wastes their bonus action (which is often a drop in damage for many builds).
And like you said, you won't always have a clean way to hide - it can depend on the scenario, the environment, etc. Sometimes you can be hidden before combat starts, but that leans more into ambushes and surprises, which again - the assassin gains bonus damage to. In almost every scenario, the assassin gains an offensive edge from their feature, unless they roll bottom of the initiative.
Yeah, the rules make surprise hard on purpose. You have to first see an enemy before they see you (which already requires you to be sneaking/scouting), then the entire party has to succeed a stealth roll (that is like quadruple disadvantage).
But surprise is also super powerful. The fact that it is easier for small groups compared to large is primarily a balance thing. Enemy creatures can do it too, and you don't want to have 8 attacks made on you before you can even move away (let alone draw your weapons and shields).
Right, so... Exactly what I said then?
I already mentioned scouts, which fun fact, in order to move stealthily have to move at a slower pace, which means the rest of the party would also have to move slower, and thus would also be moving stealthily.
If you travel at a normal pace, you can't be stealthy, thus it would be impossible to notice enemies before being notices yourself, and then it would just be splitting the party by having a scout.
And in order to get surprise with the noisy party members participating in the battle, they need to roll stealth too. Or you could have the scout start the battle without the rest of the party and hope that 1 extra turn makes up for the fact that they are alone.
I really don't know what you are even trying to suggest with your reply by telling me to do what I already listed as a requirement.
All of the parts where you are trying to argue with me are just saying the same thing I said but longer or adding additional details that go with what I already said and not against it. So I still don't know how you are running surprise where it doesn't require every party member to succeed a stealth check.
I guess the only thong you wrote that wasn't agreeing with everything I said was your last paragraph, so I'll address that here: 4 or more creatures having to all succeed a check for anyone to benefit can not be made easier by doing all of the steps required to even make that roll in the first place. Your entire argument against me has basically amounted to: "Carving an intricate ice sculpture is easy as long as your freeze water."
PHB, Group Checks:
"When a number of individuals are trying to accompolish something as a group, the DM might ask for a group ability check. In such a situation, the characters who are skilled at a particular task help cover those who aren't.To make a group ability check, everyone in the group makes the ability check. If at least half the group succeeds, the whole group succeeds. Otherwise, the group fails."
If the whole party tries to creep up on a bandit camp then the rogues ability will help offset the paladins disadvantage.
Everyone rolls initiative unless they are impossibly far away (would not be able to enter the fight even if they dashed for 4 turns).
How you act on your turn decides how the combatant react once you enter the fray. If you were trying to stealth up I would have you roll a stealth check vs the passive perception of the combatants. Any one you beat you are Hidden from but they are not going to be surprised again as they are already in combat. You would get ADV on your first attack and nothing more.
If you just dash into the fight without trying to be stealthy I am not sure why you would have an advantage other than you get to help your party when they need you to.
No rule in particular....just how I would do it.
If you are using stealth before the combat I would have you roll a stealth check to see how good you are doing it. If you are far out from combat enough to not warrant that then I would do what I said above. If you roll initiative before they get there its not likely they will be surprised by another combatant entering the fray...****y not see you and you get a momentary advantage against them.
Seems like there is no real hard set rule on how to handle it.
Secondly no need to be abrasive...not sure why you would lead any discussion off with that as that's just rude.
Once combat starts (initiative is rolled) that's when you determine surprise. If you are in the area and effectively hidden enough to warrant it sure you can have surprise. But if you try to come in a later round and try to gain surprise after everyone has already acted then no you will not get surprise regardless of how well hidden you were.
Thats why I would likely grant ADV for those who came in after the fact and joined the fray if they took the cautious/stealthy approach. However, they would need to use a stealth check. If the paladin was using something other than heavy concealment (Spell, distraction, or some other feature) I would likely impose DIS on the passive perception of the creature and impose a -5 penalty.