I just listened to Jeremy C's stealth podcast, which was great, but left me wondering about one thing...
If someone is hiding in a "lightly obscured" area (for example, behind a rock in patchy fog, or behind a statue in a dim lit room), is the Perception to locate them at Disadvantage? (I've seen mixed answers...I've read place "no", unless the searcher couldn't listen. I've also seen "yes". Is there a somewhat RAW answer?)
Also...regardless of that answer, does the sight based disadvantage to perception, linked to lightly obscured areas, apply to heavily obscured areas as well? (I ask, because I'm also imagining someone hiding in a heavily obscured room...)
A given area might be lightly or heavily obscured. In a lightly obscured area, such as dim light, patchy fog, or moderate foliage, creatures have disadvantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight.
A heavily obscured area--such as darkness, opaque fog, or dense foliage--blocks vision entirely. A creature effectively suffers from the blinded condition when trying to see something in that area.
A given area might be lightly or heavily obscured. In a lightly obscured area, such as dim light, patchy fog, or moderate foliage, creatures have disadvantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight.
A heavily obscured area--such as darkness, opaque fog, or dense foliage--blocks vision entirely. A creature effectively suffers from the blinded condition when trying to see something in that area.
Yes, thanks Dx, I have seen these. So, are you saying, "Yes"?
(As in, "Yes, you'd have disadvantage on a perception check to locate a person hidden in a lightly obscured area.")
Or, were you implying what I've read elsewhere...that the disadvantage only applies if the perception check is relying on sight? That's what confuses me...Perception relies on all the senses (right?)...so does the disadvantage only apply in circumstances you can't listen? For example, a deaf person would have the disadvantage, because their perception would rely on sight. Meanwhile, another character wouldn't have the disadvantage, because they could hear fine (meaning their check didn't rely on sight). If a party is walking through the woods, does the DM have to determine which characters can't hear, to give disadvantage to only their perception checks?
The rule says it only applies to perception checks made using sight. As a DM, I anticipate players saying "I listen to attempt to perceive the monster in the shadows," in an attempt to avoid disadvantage and then it's up to me to decide if that is situationally viable for a straight roll.
The rule says it only applies to perception checks made using sight. As a DM, I anticipate players saying "I listen to attempt to perceive the monster in the shadows," in an attempt to avoid disadvantage and then it's up to me to decide if that is situationally viable for a straight roll.
Texas, that makes sense. Likewise, I imagine noisy situations, where they can ONLY use sight, so there might be a disadvantage to perception.
How do you handle Passive Perception? Do you assume that includes listening, and don't impose a disadvantage? (Assuming it's not super noisy.)
If there would be disadvantage on an active roll, I subtract 5 from passive perception. Other than that, i just play it by ear and tend to err on the side of allowing the player to be successful in the case of ambiguity.
If you're listening to find this hidden creature and not trying to see them, then you're only really removing their "Unheard" quality, not their "Unseen" quality... so you may be able to target their square with an attack, but you don't "see" them to cast see-spells, and you'll have disadvantage on your attack, and they'll still have advantage against you. If what you're really trying to do is "spot the hidden creature" to remove all those penalties, then yes you are making a check that relies on sight, and it is at disadvantage.
My best bet... if you're looking to target someone with a melee attack right next to them, then a lightly obscured area wouldn't give any disadvantage to perception. But if it's a ranged attack from hmmm... let's say 20 feet away or more, it would have disadvantage, with exceptions being made for if it's a situation where everything is dead quiet except the two creatures engaged in combat.
A given area might be lightly or heavily obscured. In a lightly obscured area, such as dim light, patchy fog, or moderate foliage, creatures have disadvantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight.
A heavily obscured area--such as darkness, opaque fog, or dense foliage--blocks vision entirely. A creature effectively suffers from the blinded condition when trying to see something in that area.
The rule says it only applies to perception checks made using sight. As a DM, I anticipate players saying "I listen to attempt to perceive the monster in the shadows," in an attempt to avoid disadvantage and then it's up to me to decide if that is situationally viable for a straight roll.
This is the caveat that I would set at my table. It is on the player to say that they are listening. If not then, then my default is to assume it is with vision, and thus disadvantage on their check. I would consider other factors in the environment if the target trying to hide gets advantage.
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I just listened to Jeremy C's stealth podcast, which was great, but left me wondering about one thing...
If someone is hiding in a "lightly obscured" area (for example, behind a rock in patchy fog, or behind a statue in a dim lit room), is the Perception to locate them at Disadvantage? (I've seen mixed answers...I've read place "no", unless the searcher couldn't listen. I've also seen "yes". Is there a somewhat RAW answer?)
Also...regardless of that answer, does the sight based disadvantage to perception, linked to lightly obscured areas, apply to heavily obscured areas as well? (I ask, because I'm also imagining someone hiding in a heavily obscured room...)
Thanks!
Here are the relevant rules you are asking for:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/adventuring#VisionandLight
Yes, thanks Dx, I have seen these. So, are you saying, "Yes"?
(As in, "Yes, you'd have disadvantage on a perception check to locate a person hidden in a lightly obscured area.")
Or, were you implying what I've read elsewhere...that the disadvantage only applies if the perception check is relying on sight? That's what confuses me...Perception relies on all the senses (right?)...so does the disadvantage only apply in circumstances you can't listen? For example, a deaf person would have the disadvantage, because their perception would rely on sight. Meanwhile, another character wouldn't have the disadvantage, because they could hear fine (meaning their check didn't rely on sight). If a party is walking through the woods, does the DM have to determine which characters can't hear, to give disadvantage to only their perception checks?
The rule says it only applies to perception checks made using sight. As a DM, I anticipate players saying "I listen to attempt to perceive the monster in the shadows," in an attempt to avoid disadvantage and then it's up to me to decide if that is situationally viable for a straight roll.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Texas, that makes sense. Likewise, I imagine noisy situations, where they can ONLY use sight, so there might be a disadvantage to perception.
How do you handle Passive Perception? Do you assume that includes listening, and don't impose a disadvantage? (Assuming it's not super noisy.)
If there would be disadvantage on an active roll, I subtract 5 from passive perception. Other than that, i just play it by ear and tend to err on the side of allowing the player to be successful in the case of ambiguity.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
If you're listening to find this hidden creature and not trying to see them, then you're only really removing their "Unheard" quality, not their "Unseen" quality... so you may be able to target their square with an attack, but you don't "see" them to cast see-spells, and you'll have disadvantage on your attack, and they'll still have advantage against you. If what you're really trying to do is "spot the hidden creature" to remove all those penalties, then yes you are making a check that relies on sight, and it is at disadvantage.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
My best bet... if you're looking to target someone with a melee attack right next to them, then a lightly obscured area wouldn't give any disadvantage to perception. But if it's a ranged attack from hmmm... let's say 20 feet away or more, it would have disadvantage, with exceptions being made for if it's a situation where everything is dead quiet except the two creatures engaged in combat.
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That is what I was saying, yes. But as others pointed out, the rules don't cover everything (maybe cast your vote in my first poll).
This is the caveat that I would set at my table. It is on the player to say that they are listening. If not then, then my default is to assume it is with vision, and thus disadvantage on their check. I would consider other factors in the environment if the target trying to hide gets advantage.