While making a surprise entrance as what could best be described as a PC dungeon boss, I have come across one major issue. Since RAW states that a polymorphed creature can use tools limited only by their form, and apes have opposable thumbs, I figured this would be an awesome combo. Now the issue is, excluding the multiattack(not possible), how much damage would a giant ape be able to do while wielding a shadow blade? Assuming the shadow blade was at base form dealing 2d6+6(STR), it would pale in comparison to the regular fist attack of 3d10+6, which you get two attacks of. Would you then just add them together, to a total of 2d6+3d10+6, or would you just chalk it up to a loss and say well, I guess apes wouldn't be that great at using weapons anyway? (The latter shouldn't matter when a giant creature swings a magical blade the size of a house at you)
Add them together as in one sword attack and one fist attack? Sure.
Add them together on a single attack with the sword? No, else why doesn't everyone add +1 (unarmed attack damage normally) for every melee weapon.
Since you are the DM, you can always say that it is a Giant Shadow Blade (or one that adjusts to the wielder's size, though this gets overpowered with Enlarge) and step damage up/down based upon creature size using the 2d6 as a base.
Keep in mind that when polymorphed, your stat block is replaced by that of the Ape. The ape does not remember anything of who you were except alignment and personality so it will probably be friendly with your friends, mean to your enemies but has no other knowledge beyond that.
An ape is not proficient with a sword. It doesn't know how to use it. If an ape tried to swing a sword they would not get the proficiency bonus to hit. In addition, an ape holding a sword would not get a bonus to damage when punching. The sword is probably pointing in the wrong direction and honestly, the ape is probably as likely to poke themselves with the pointy end as their opponent.
This is just going by RAW. As the DM, you are welcome to create monsters and opponents that don't follow the rules but if you use the polymorph spell and shadow blade in this case and it works then you can expect your players to try the same thing and as the DM you need to have a good explanation why standard spells work one way for the players and another way for the NPCs. On the other hand, the bad guy could have a genius giant ape that has been trained to use a sword as well as their fists, giving them additional attack options.
One last comment, both polymorph and shadow blade require concentration so the combination isn't possible using a single spell caster.
Not quite, shadow blade says that it is a weapon with which you are proficient. The spell alone makes it so that anyone can use the blade. As far as polymorph, that can be cast by someone else. So now for the main question again, it would make no sense for a giant shadow blade with which the ape was proficient with, to not be able to deal as much damage as with his fists. One recommendation I recieved was dealing damage similar to NPC's. Revenants deal a set amount of damage (say, 2d6) while unarmed, and then more damage based on the fact that they are holding swords (say 2d12). Not exact numbers but you get the idea
Weapon attacks don’t stack. You get to choose between the fist attack and the shadow blade attack. It is at DM discretion to change a spell based on the size of the the creature, but the spell says what damage it does. Also, it is magically created - so its size/effectiveness should be fixed. Also, 8d8 (=4x2d8) seems excessive.
Shadow blade damage is not affected by the strength of the character using it, so it does exactly the same damage as it would in human form, though you could use the giant ape's strength bonus for the attack roll.
You could make a case that the spell alter self stacks with polymorph. Your Ape could grow spiky bone plates on his Knuckles and deal an extra 1d6 +1 (magical) damage.
You could make a case that the spell alter self stacks with polymorph. Your Ape could grow spiky bone plates on his Knuckles and deal an extra 1d6 +1 (magical) damage.
The 1d6 replaces your normal unarmed damage, so it's less than what the giant ape would normally do. Basically, it means the ape would be permitted to strike for once for +10(1d6+7 magical) instead of twice +9(3d10+6), which is only useful if you're up against something immune to normal weapons.
(as a side note, I house rule that the max CR from polymorph is the level of the spell, not the level of the target).
Homebrew: You can make a strong case to your DM to follow rule 1 and 0 instead of RAW. Layering 2 concentration spells in a way that it makes sense ( in a magical fantasy world). And already haveing the Enlarge spell, that adds an extra 1d4 damage together with other str check/save advantage, higher weight and bigger size.
But i prefer to reward creative play. Layering 2 concentration spells in a way that it makes sense ( in a magical fantasy world). Haveing already the Enlarge spell, that adds an extra 1d4 damage together with other str check/save advantage, higher weight and bigger size. You can make a strong case to your DM to follow rule 1 and 0 instead of RAW.I
I believe that there is an important distinction between "creativity" and "cheese." Creativity turns in to cheese when the fun has been sucked out: when the mechanical advantage outweighs all else -- especially the process of discovery.
For example, adding unarmed strike damage to a creature's natural weapons is obviously better, but isn't creative and is far outside of the realm of rules; it is pretty clearly cheese.
Only, that the spell Enlarge is doing exactly that and a few more bonus on top of that.
No. It doesn't. It does what the spell says: adds a d4 to all attacks with weapons (along with the other spell effects).
The example you gave was to use alter self to add your unarmed strikes and your natural attacks in the same attack. That is apparently the problem here: those two examples are completely different according to rules, and you don't seem to recognize that. One is doing exactly what the rules say but the other is just doing whatever you want without any creativity to get a few more points of damage. I think it is pretty easy to realize when your "creativity" is coming only for mechanical advantage at the expense of the rules - but maybe I was wrong on that. Maybe understanding what is within the rules and what is obviously not (I'm not talking about unclear areas here, I mean obvious stuff) is harder than it seems.
Shadow blade damage is not affected by the strength of the character using it, so it does exactly the same damage as it would in human form, though you could use the giant ape's strength bonus for the attack roll.
Shadow blade's damage replaces weapon damage, it still gets the ability bonus to damage from your str/dex like any other weapon.
Because you’re the DM you can tweak the rules for an opponent. Especially a major opponent. My answer is make the damage whatever will be the most fun for the players. It’s not fun for them to steamroll over a major opponent and it’s not fun for them to have their PCs die, so create a custom opponent with custom spells/abilities that is balanced to challenge them, let them face something new that the players haven’t seen or heard of before, and fun.
While making a surprise entrance as what could best be described as a PC dungeon boss, I have come across one major issue. Since RAW states that a polymorphed creature can use tools limited only by their form, and apes have opposable thumbs, I figured this would be an awesome combo. Now the issue is, excluding the multiattack(not possible), how much damage would a giant ape be able to do while wielding a shadow blade? Assuming the shadow blade was at base form dealing 2d6+6(STR), it would pale in comparison to the regular fist attack of 3d10+6, which you get two attacks of. Would you then just add them together, to a total of 2d6+3d10+6, or would you just chalk it up to a loss and say well, I guess apes wouldn't be that great at using weapons anyway? (The latter shouldn't matter when a giant creature swings a magical blade the size of a house at you)
Add them together as in one sword attack and one fist attack? Sure.
Add them together on a single attack with the sword? No, else why doesn't everyone add +1 (unarmed attack damage normally) for every melee weapon.
Since you are the DM, you can always say that it is a Giant Shadow Blade (or one that adjusts to the wielder's size, though this gets overpowered with Enlarge) and step damage up/down based upon creature size using the 2d6 as a base.
Keep in mind that when polymorphed, your stat block is replaced by that of the Ape. The ape does not remember anything of who you were except alignment and personality so it will probably be friendly with your friends, mean to your enemies but has no other knowledge beyond that.
An ape is not proficient with a sword. It doesn't know how to use it. If an ape tried to swing a sword they would not get the proficiency bonus to hit. In addition, an ape holding a sword would not get a bonus to damage when punching. The sword is probably pointing in the wrong direction and honestly, the ape is probably as likely to poke themselves with the pointy end as their opponent.
This is just going by RAW. As the DM, you are welcome to create monsters and opponents that don't follow the rules but if you use the polymorph spell and shadow blade in this case and it works then you can expect your players to try the same thing and as the DM you need to have a good explanation why standard spells work one way for the players and another way for the NPCs. On the other hand, the bad guy could have a genius giant ape that has been trained to use a sword as well as their fists, giving them additional attack options.
One last comment, both polymorph and shadow blade require concentration so the combination isn't possible using a single spell caster.
Not quite, shadow blade says that it is a weapon with which you are proficient. The spell alone makes it so that anyone can use the blade. As far as polymorph, that can be cast by someone else. So now for the main question again, it would make no sense for a giant shadow blade with which the ape was proficient with, to not be able to deal as much damage as with his fists. One recommendation I recieved was dealing damage similar to NPC's. Revenants deal a set amount of damage (say, 2d6) while unarmed, and then more damage based on the fact that they are holding swords (say 2d12). Not exact numbers but you get the idea
Weapon attacks don’t stack. You get to choose between the fist attack and the shadow blade attack. It is at DM discretion to change a spell based on the size of the the creature, but the spell says what damage it does. Also, it is magically created - so its size/effectiveness should be fixed. Also, 8d8 (=4x2d8) seems excessive.
Shadow blade damage is not affected by the strength of the character using it, so it does exactly the same damage as it would in human form, though you could use the giant ape's strength bonus for the attack roll.
You could make a case that the spell alter self stacks with polymorph. Your Ape could grow spiky bone plates on his Knuckles and deal an extra 1d6 +1 (magical) damage.
Attack: [roll]3d20dl2+6[/roll] Damage: [roll](if([roll:-1:critical], =0, 1d8, 2{1d8}.expand()))+4[/roll] Sneakattack: [roll](if([roll:-2:critical], =0, 2d6, 2{2d6}.expand()))[/roll]The 1d6 replaces your normal unarmed damage, so it's less than what the giant ape would normally do. Basically, it means the ape would be permitted to strike for once for +10(1d6+7 magical) instead of twice +9(3d10+6), which is only useful if you're up against something immune to normal weapons.
(as a side note, I house rule that the max CR from polymorph is the level of the spell, not the level of the target).
AL/RAW: you are right.
Homebrew: You can make a strong case to your DM to follow rule 1 and 0 instead of RAW. Layering 2 concentration spells in a way that it makes sense ( in a magical fantasy world). And already haveing the Enlarge spell, that adds an extra 1d4 damage together with other str check/save advantage, higher weight and bigger size.
Attack: [roll]3d20dl2+6[/roll] Damage: [roll](if([roll:-1:critical], =0, 1d8, 2{1d8}.expand()))+4[/roll] Sneakattack: [roll](if([roll:-2:critical], =0, 2d6, 2{2d6}.expand()))[/roll]I believe that there is an important distinction between "creativity" and "cheese." Creativity turns in to cheese when the fun has been sucked out: when the mechanical advantage outweighs all else -- especially the process of discovery.
For example, adding unarmed strike damage to a creature's natural weapons is obviously better, but isn't creative and is far outside of the realm of rules; it is pretty clearly cheese.
Cheese or creativ is a matter of personal opinion, can't argue that.
Attack: [roll]3d20dl2+6[/roll] Damage: [roll](if([roll:-1:critical], =0, 1d8, 2{1d8}.expand()))+4[/roll] Sneakattack: [roll](if([roll:-2:critical], =0, 2d6, 2{2d6}.expand()))[/roll]True, but you also can't argue that this specific example (stacking unarmed attack damage on weapon attack damage) is anywhere near RAW, RAI, or RAF.
Only, that the spell Enlarge is doing exactly that and a few more bonus on top of that.
Attack: [roll]3d20dl2+6[/roll] Damage: [roll](if([roll:-1:critical], =0, 1d8, 2{1d8}.expand()))+4[/roll] Sneakattack: [roll](if([roll:-2:critical], =0, 2d6, 2{2d6}.expand()))[/roll]No. It doesn't. It does what the spell says: adds a d4 to all attacks with weapons (along with the other spell effects).
The example you gave was to use alter self to add your unarmed strikes and your natural attacks in the same attack. That is apparently the problem here: those two examples are completely different according to rules, and you don't seem to recognize that. One is doing exactly what the rules say but the other is just doing whatever you want without any creativity to get a few more points of damage. I think it is pretty easy to realize when your "creativity" is coming only for mechanical advantage at the expense of the rules - but maybe I was wrong on that. Maybe understanding what is within the rules and what is obviously not (I'm not talking about unclear areas here, I mean obvious stuff) is harder than it seems.
Shadow blade's damage replaces weapon damage, it still gets the ability bonus to damage from your str/dex like any other weapon.
Because you’re the DM you can tweak the rules for an opponent. Especially a major opponent. My answer is make the damage whatever will be the most fun for the players. It’s not fun for them to steamroll over a major opponent and it’s not fun for them to have their PCs die, so create a custom opponent with custom spells/abilities that is balanced to challenge them, let them face something new that the players haven’t seen or heard of before, and fun.
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