I'm specifically looking at the case of silvery Barbs in terms of when it was used on a creature with advantage.
When something makes you reroll a die when you have advantage or disadvantage it only affects one of the die, and it specifically says " You choose which one."
Now I'm assuming the you choose which one is the person who is doing the roll at advantage or disadvantage.
Since I have advantage, if silvery Barbs is used against me couldn't I just pick the lower of the 2 dice I rolled, meaning silvery barbs will have no affect?
I assume you're referring to this line from the PHB chapter 7 about Advantage and Disadvantage: "When you have advantage or disadvantage and something in the game, such as the halfling’s Lucky trait, lets you reroll or replace the d20, you can reroll or replace only one of the dice. You choose which one."
That applies to when something lets you reroll. Silvery Barbs makes you reroll. My understanding is that Silvery Barbs makes you roll again and take the lower result. So you have the result of your Advantage roll (lets say you got 8 and 15, so your result is 15) and the Silvery Barbs roll (let's say 12), and you'd take the lower result (12 in this case). I could be wrong, but that's how I've seen it work and what makes sense to me.
I had a really nicely worded response, but my freakin' computer crashed on me. Thorrison covered my first point, which was that Barbs doesn't let you reroll, it forces you to reroll, but that only serves to say "no, this rule doesn't apply here." It doesn't actually tell you how to resolve this situation.
Luckily for us, the rules for advantage and disadvantage do make it clear.
When you have either advantage or disadvantage, you roll a second d20 when you make the roll. Use the higher of the two rolls if you have advantage, and use the lower roll if you have disadvantage.
And if you look at Silvery Barbs, it has similar text:
The triggering creature must reroll the d20 and use the lower roll.
So: You can choose which die to reroll, yes. However, whatever you choose, you have to use the lower of the results. Let's look at an example. You roll with advantage and get 15 and 3. Knowing the 15 will be a success for you, someone casts Silvery Barbs. You can choose which dice to reroll, because you had advantage. You choose the 15. You reroll it and get a 10. You have to use the 10. But you might have rolled a 16, in which case you'd be taking the 15, which would still succeed. If, instead, you chose to reroll the 3, you could never achieve higher than a 3. Rolling a 10 would mean you get 3, and rolling a 2 would mean you get 2.
That's one interpretation.
The other interpretation is that, since Silvery Barbs specifies you take the reaction to cast it "when a creature you can see within 60 feet of yourself succeeds," the success is already locked in -- you are using the 15 -- and the 3 is discarded or forgotten by the time the spell occurs. Thus, you can't choose to reroll the 3, you can only reroll the 15, because if you could choose the 3, you wouldn't have succeeded yet, so the spell couldn't have been cast yet.
I don't think either explanation has any definitive advantage over the other in terms of sheer rules interpretation. So we have to resort to other means of deciding. The common ones are 1) Does Jeremy Crawford have anything to say on the matter? and 2) What's more fun? Some other alternatives are 3) What favors the players more?, 4) What feels right?, or 5) Would this set a precedent for other rulings? Ultimately, though, these are not rules questions. And, of course, both interpretations lead to the same conclusion: You should reroll the higher result, either for strategic reasons or because you don't have a choice.
The triggering creature must reroll the d20 and use the lower roll.
So: You can choose which die to reroll, yes. However, whatever you choose, you have to use the lower of the results. Let's look at an example. You roll with advantage and get 15 and 3. Knowing the 15 will be a success for you, someone casts Silvery Barbs. You can choose which dice to reroll, because you had advantage. You choose the 15. You reroll it and get a 10. You have to use the 10. But you might have rolled a 16, in which case you'd be taking the 15, which would still succeed. If, instead, you chose to reroll the 3, you could never achieve higher than a 3. Rolling a 10 would mean you get 3, and rolling a 2 would mean you get 2.
See I see use as a bit different. In the case you gave of a 15 and a 3 and you must use the lower result, if I choose the 3 and roll say a 12. I'm using the 3. That 3 however is still lower than the 15, so despite it being used for the calculation in which is higher it still gets tossed aside.
Basically, advantage is higher of x and y. Silvery barbs now means y is lower of y and z becomes the new y, but the higher still applies. I can understand your view on the use the lower of as well. I think it's a case of its not clear, and I will go with how I had been playing it up until now and just homebrew it as the d20 roll is the roll of both dice. To use the one dnd text, reroll your d20 test.
The triggering creature must reroll the d20 and use the lower roll.
So: You can choose which die to reroll, yes. However, whatever you choose, you have to use the lower of the results. Let's look at an example. You roll with advantage and get 15 and 3. Knowing the 15 will be a success for you, someone casts Silvery Barbs. You can choose which dice to reroll, because you had advantage. You choose the 15. You reroll it and get a 10. You have to use the 10. But you might have rolled a 16, in which case you'd be taking the 15, which would still succeed. If, instead, you chose to reroll the 3, you could never achieve higher than a 3. Rolling a 10 would mean you get 3, and rolling a 2 would mean you get 2.
See I see use as a bit different. [...] Basically, advantage is higher of x and y. Silvery barbs now means y is lower of y and z becomes the new y, but the higher still applies.
This is the one interpretation that I think is unequivocally incorrect.
I'm specifically looking at the case of silvery Barbs in terms of when it was used on a creature with advantage.
When something makes you reroll a die when you have advantage or disadvantage it only affects one of the die, and it specifically says " You choose which one."
Now I'm assuming the you choose which one is the person who is doing the roll at advantage or disadvantage.
Since I have advantage, if silvery Barbs is used against me couldn't I just pick the lower of the 2 dice I rolled, meaning silvery barbs will have no affect?
Silvery Barbs can't even be cast until advantage/disadvantage have been resolved. Neither advantage nor disadvantage applies at that point. If your original roll is made with advantage and you roll a 2 and a 15, you take the 15 and succeed. The 2 is now gone. It doesn't matter anymore. Then I cast Silvery Barbs on you, forcing to roll again and use the lower number. You roll and get an 8, which is lower than 15, so the final result is an 8 plus whatever your modifier is (unless that's still a success and someone ELSE casts Silvery Barbs again).
The spell Silvery Barbs has the casting time of 1 Reaction with the following description:
You magically distract the triggering creature and turn its momentary uncertainty into encouragement for another creature. The triggering creature must reroll the d20 and use the lower roll.
You can then choose a different creature you can see within range (you can choose yourself). The chosen creature has advantage on the next attack roll, ability check, or saving throw it makes within 1 minute. A creature can be empowered by only one use of this spell at a time.
* - which you take when a creature you can see within 60 feet of yourself succeeds on an attack roll, an ability check, or a saving throw
So the spell is cast only after "a creature you can see within 60 feet of yourself succeeds" on an eligible roll.
The Lucky trait allows you to reroll a 1 on d20 roll. The Lucky Feat also allows you to reroll one die, but you must do so "before the outcome is determined." Several reroll features have similar parameters in that the reroll must occur before knowing the outcome (i.e. is it a success or fail).
Silvery Barbs clearly states the target must have succeeded on the role. Therefore, if a creature rolls with advantage or disadvantage, the outcome must be determined before Silvery Barbs can be cast. So the higher (advantage) or lower (disadvantage) die roll is used to rule if the attack role, saving throw, or ability check succeeded. Silvery Barbs would then be applied to the die value that was used to be ruled a success.
Having advantage or disadvantage does not determine if a roll is successful. It requires two rolls and the condition defines whether the higher or lower value is used in the check for a success. Traits to reroll a die occurs prior to comparing a role to a value. Silvery Barbs is cast against the known and accepted roll that was ruled to be a success.
Is there any chance that this could be interpreted to mean "reroll with advantage" or "reroll with disadvantage" when the original roll was made with advantage or disadvantage respectively? This is building on petepan3's idea that this reroll works differently than other reroll features which do not know the success or failure outcome. In this case, it seems that the entire outcome is rerolled.
So, a creature made a successful attack roll with advantage. This means he makes an attack roll, like so: "2. Determine modifiers. The DM determines whether the target has cover and whether you have advantage or disadvantage against the target." . . . "3. Resolve the attack. You make the attack roll." . . . "To make an attack roll, roll a d20 and add the appropriate modifiers." . . . "you have advantage or disadvantage on an ability check, a saving throw, or an attack roll. When that happens, you roll a second d20 when you make the roll. Use the higher of the two rolls if you have advantage".
Silvery Barbs now says the creature must "reroll the d20". Since we know that "To make an attack roll, roll a d20" perhaps we can interpret Silvery Barbs to mean the creature must "reroll the attack roll". Meaning, reroll the d20 that was used to make the attack roll to create a whole new outcome for the attack roll -- or, make your attack roll again -- a "do over". So, we go through the process again. The attack roll will be made (again) with advantage, the d20 is rolled again in order to make the attack roll and then to resolve the attack roll, the appropriate modifiers are added -- in this case, a second d20 is rolled as a modifier "when you make the roll" to account for the advantage.
Maybe it's a stretch, but I think it's more in line with how Silvery Barbs is supposed to work mathematically. To instead basically turn a roll with advantage into a single roll is a massive penalty that is probably overpowered.
Based on the wording of Silvery Barbs, I think that Saga and Pete are correct.
Silvery Barbs is only cast AFTER the die roll succeeds. Die roll success is determined only AFTER advantage and disadvantage have been resolved. The other die in either case is irrelevant by the time the reaction for Silvery Barbs is triggered.
Silvery Barbs forces a character to take the lower of the Successful die roll or the re-roll caused by Silvery Barbs.
The difference between Silvery Barbs and disadvantage is that the player knows that one of the two die rolls is already a success before they are forced to re-roll and take the lower of the two die.
In any case, by the time Silvery Barbs can be cast, any advantage or disadvantage on the original die roll is irrelevant since it has already been resolved.
I'm specifically looking at the case of silvery Barbs in terms of when it was used on a creature with advantage.
When something makes you reroll a die when you have advantage or disadvantage it only affects one of the die, and it specifically says " You choose which one."
Now I'm assuming the you choose which one is the person who is doing the roll at advantage or disadvantage.
Since I have advantage, if silvery Barbs is used against me couldn't I just pick the lower of the 2 dice I rolled, meaning silvery barbs will have no affect?
The silvery barbs target that succeeds on an attack roll, an ability check, or a saving throw must reroll the d20 and use the lower roll. It has nothing to do with advantage/disadvantage and comes into effect after the roll outcome was determined. The only game element that could still affect it at this point would be one that specifically affect a roll that succeed or failed
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I'm specifically looking at the case of silvery Barbs in terms of when it was used on a creature with advantage.
When something makes you reroll a die when you have advantage or disadvantage it only affects one of the die, and it specifically says " You choose which one."
Now I'm assuming the you choose which one is the person who is doing the roll at advantage or disadvantage.
Since I have advantage, if silvery Barbs is used against me couldn't I just pick the lower of the 2 dice I rolled, meaning silvery barbs will have no affect?
I assume you're referring to this line from the PHB chapter 7 about Advantage and Disadvantage: "When you have advantage or disadvantage and something in the game, such as the halfling’s Lucky trait, lets you reroll or replace the d20, you can reroll or replace only one of the dice. You choose which one."
That applies to when something lets you reroll. Silvery Barbs makes you reroll. My understanding is that Silvery Barbs makes you roll again and take the lower result. So you have the result of your Advantage roll (lets say you got 8 and 15, so your result is 15) and the Silvery Barbs roll (let's say 12), and you'd take the lower result (12 in this case). I could be wrong, but that's how I've seen it work and what makes sense to me.
I had a really nicely worded response, but my freakin' computer crashed on me. Thorrison covered my first point, which was that Barbs doesn't let you reroll, it forces you to reroll, but that only serves to say "no, this rule doesn't apply here." It doesn't actually tell you how to resolve this situation.
Luckily for us, the rules for advantage and disadvantage do make it clear.
And if you look at Silvery Barbs, it has similar text:
So: You can choose which die to reroll, yes. However, whatever you choose, you have to use the lower of the results. Let's look at an example. You roll with advantage and get 15 and 3. Knowing the 15 will be a success for you, someone casts Silvery Barbs. You can choose which dice to reroll, because you had advantage. You choose the 15. You reroll it and get a 10. You have to use the 10. But you might have rolled a 16, in which case you'd be taking the 15, which would still succeed. If, instead, you chose to reroll the 3, you could never achieve higher than a 3. Rolling a 10 would mean you get 3, and rolling a 2 would mean you get 2.
That's one interpretation.
The other interpretation is that, since Silvery Barbs specifies you take the reaction to cast it "when a creature you can see within 60 feet of yourself succeeds," the success is already locked in -- you are using the 15 -- and the 3 is discarded or forgotten by the time the spell occurs. Thus, you can't choose to reroll the 3, you can only reroll the 15, because if you could choose the 3, you wouldn't have succeeded yet, so the spell couldn't have been cast yet.
I don't think either explanation has any definitive advantage over the other in terms of sheer rules interpretation. So we have to resort to other means of deciding. The common ones are 1) Does Jeremy Crawford have anything to say on the matter? and 2) What's more fun? Some other alternatives are 3) What favors the players more?, 4) What feels right?, or 5) Would this set a precedent for other rulings? Ultimately, though, these are not rules questions. And, of course, both interpretations lead to the same conclusion: You should reroll the higher result, either for strategic reasons or because you don't have a choice.
See I see use as a bit different. In the case you gave of a 15 and a 3 and you must use the lower result, if I choose the 3 and roll say a 12. I'm using the 3. That 3 however is still lower than the 15, so despite it being used for the calculation in which is higher it still gets tossed aside.
Basically, advantage is higher of x and y. Silvery barbs now means y is lower of y and z becomes the new y, but the higher still applies. I can understand your view on the use the lower of as well. I think it's a case of its not clear, and I will go with how I had been playing it up until now and just homebrew it as the d20 roll is the roll of both dice. To use the one dnd text, reroll your d20 test.
This is the one interpretation that I think is unequivocally incorrect.
Silvery Barbs can't even be cast until advantage/disadvantage have been resolved. Neither advantage nor disadvantage applies at that point. If your original roll is made with advantage and you roll a 2 and a 15, you take the 15 and succeed. The 2 is now gone. It doesn't matter anymore. Then I cast Silvery Barbs on you, forcing to roll again and use the lower number. You roll and get an 8, which is lower than 15, so the final result is an 8 plus whatever your modifier is (unless that's still a success and someone ELSE casts Silvery Barbs again).
The spell Silvery Barbs has the casting time of 1 Reaction with the following description:
So the spell is cast only after "a creature you can see within 60 feet of yourself succeeds" on an eligible roll.
The Lucky trait allows you to reroll a 1 on d20 roll. The Lucky Feat also allows you to reroll one die, but you must do so "before the outcome is determined." Several reroll features have similar parameters in that the reroll must occur before knowing the outcome (i.e. is it a success or fail).
Silvery Barbs clearly states the target must have succeeded on the role. Therefore, if a creature rolls with advantage or disadvantage, the outcome must be determined before Silvery Barbs can be cast. So the higher (advantage) or lower (disadvantage) die roll is used to rule if the attack role, saving throw, or ability check succeeded. Silvery Barbs would then be applied to the die value that was used to be ruled a success.
Having advantage or disadvantage does not determine if a roll is successful. It requires two rolls and the condition defines whether the higher or lower value is used in the check for a success. Traits to reroll a die occurs prior to comparing a role to a value. Silvery Barbs is cast against the known and accepted roll that was ruled to be a success.
Two votes for my second interpretation. Perhaps you should make a poll. You'd save a lot of time reading.
Is there any chance that this could be interpreted to mean "reroll with advantage" or "reroll with disadvantage" when the original roll was made with advantage or disadvantage respectively? This is building on petepan3's idea that this reroll works differently than other reroll features which do not know the success or failure outcome. In this case, it seems that the entire outcome is rerolled.
So, a creature made a successful attack roll with advantage. This means he makes an attack roll, like so: "2. Determine modifiers. The DM determines whether the target has cover and whether you have advantage or disadvantage against the target." . . . "3. Resolve the attack. You make the attack roll." . . . "To make an attack roll, roll a d20 and add the appropriate modifiers." . . . "you have advantage or disadvantage on an ability check, a saving throw, or an attack roll. When that happens, you roll a second d20 when you make the roll. Use the higher of the two rolls if you have advantage".
Silvery Barbs now says the creature must "reroll the d20". Since we know that "To make an attack roll, roll a d20" perhaps we can interpret Silvery Barbs to mean the creature must "reroll the attack roll". Meaning, reroll the d20 that was used to make the attack roll to create a whole new outcome for the attack roll -- or, make your attack roll again -- a "do over". So, we go through the process again. The attack roll will be made (again) with advantage, the d20 is rolled again in order to make the attack roll and then to resolve the attack roll, the appropriate modifiers are added -- in this case, a second d20 is rolled as a modifier "when you make the roll" to account for the advantage.
Maybe it's a stretch, but I think it's more in line with how Silvery Barbs is supposed to work mathematically. To instead basically turn a roll with advantage into a single roll is a massive penalty that is probably overpowered.
Based on the wording of Silvery Barbs, I think that Saga and Pete are correct.
Silvery Barbs is only cast AFTER the die roll succeeds. Die roll success is determined only AFTER advantage and disadvantage have been resolved. The other die in either case is irrelevant by the time the reaction for Silvery Barbs is triggered.
Silvery Barbs forces a character to take the lower of the Successful die roll or the re-roll caused by Silvery Barbs.
The difference between Silvery Barbs and disadvantage is that the player knows that one of the two die rolls is already a success before they are forced to re-roll and take the lower of the two die.
In any case, by the time Silvery Barbs can be cast, any advantage or disadvantage on the original die roll is irrelevant since it has already been resolved.
The silvery barbs target that succeeds on an attack roll, an ability check, or a saving throw must reroll the d20 and use the lower roll. It has nothing to do with advantage/disadvantage and comes into effect after the roll outcome was determined. The only game element that could still affect it at this point would be one that specifically affect a roll that succeed or failed