Witch Bolt uses a spell attack roll, and that is an attack roll. I'm not sure if it is the intention of the designers to use True Strike in that way but, I would allow it unless I could find a real reason not to.
Entry on the subject. Relevant part in bold.
Attack Rolls
When you make an attack, your attack roll determines whether the attack hits or misses. To make an attack roll, roll a d20 and add the appropriate modifiers. If the total of the roll plus modifiers equals or exceeds the target's Armor Class (AC), the attack hits. The AC of a character is determined at character creation, whereas the AC of a monster is in its stat block.
Modifiers to the Roll
When a character makes an attack roll, the two most common modifiers to the roll are an ability modifier and the character's proficiency bonus. When a monster makes an attack roll, it uses whatever modifier is provided in its stat block.
Ability Modifier. The ability modifier used for a melee weapon attack is Strength, and the ability modifier used for a ranged weapon attack is Dexterity. Weapons that have the finesse or thrown property break this rule.
Some spells also require an attack roll. The ability modifier used for a spell attack depends on the spellcasting ability of the spellcaster, as explained in chapter 10.
Proficiency Bonus. You add your proficiency bonus to your attack roll when you attack using a weapon with which you have proficiency, as well as when you attack with a spell.
Rolling 1 or 20
Sometimes fate blesses or curses a combatant, causing the novice to hit and the veteran to miss.
If the d20 roll for an attack is a 20, the attack hits regardless of any modifiers or the target's AC. This is called a critical hit, which is explained later in this chapter.
If the d20 roll for an attack is a 1, the attack misses regardless of any modifiers or the target's AC.
See, this is the discussion I'm involved with, but as I see it there is no overlap in the spells so no loss of concentration.
True strike ends when you role the die, witch bolt starts after you role the die, if your role is successful.
If there was not the die role separating the two, or if you try to do both in one round. Then yeah I see it not working, but I believe the die role delineates between the two.
True strike ends when you role the die, witch bolt starts after you role the die, if your role is successful.
True Strike ends when you cast another concentration spell. The dice roll from Witch Bolt comes once your spell is cast. Thus there is no overlap and you do not gain advantage.
Lol. That's the midt confusing response to this question for me yet, no overlap and no advantage. It's like, the spell works fine, it just doesn't work.
I think than my other friend us spot on. True strike has got to be the most useless cantrip there is. It's like having a thief susdefully hid in shadow only to come out and introduce himself to the city guard and ask how his nights going.
Lol. That's the midt confusing response to this question for me yet, no overlap and no advantage. It's like, the spell works fine, it just doesn't work.
Thanks for your input, have a great day.
I don't really understand what you're saying here. True Strike is a concentration spell, which means it stops working when you stop concentrating. That's the whole point of a concentration spell. Witch Bolt is also a concentration spell, which means you have to stop concentrating on anything else to start casting it. This is the incredibly simple foundational premise of concentration in 5e.
I wouldn't call it simple and foundational, I think it catches a lot of people off guard that you don't stop one concentration spell when you cast the other, but rather when you start to cast the other. Leads to things like being unable to maintain Fly through multiple durations, etc., it catches a lot of people off guard.
But yeah, True Strike is tough to use, not a lot of point to it other than maybe trying to ensure that your Chromatic Orb doesn't wiff.
I wouldn't call it simple and foundational, I think it catches a lot of people off guard that you don't stop one concentration spell when you cast the other, but rather when you start to cast the other.
The rules don’t make a distinction between those two things. With some specific exceptions (extra attack, for example), actions are atomic. Narratively, we obviously think of and describe them as taking time, but that time has no mechanical significance.
Casting another spell that requires concentration. You lose concentration on a spell if you cast another spell that requires concentration. You can't concentrate on two spells at once.
This is very simple and foundational. It says what it means and it means what it says. It leaves no room for confusion. If anyone is caught off guard, it’s because they’ve come to the table with certain assumptions and haven’t actually read the rule.
"You cast another spell" is rather ambiguous in plain english, as to whether it means casting or have cast. It's not that you're wrong on the conclusion, but there's no need to be condescending about the difficulty one might have landing at that conclusion, and also... you're just flat out wrong about 5E not drawing a distinction between the two phases.
See the Storm Sorcerer's Level 1 and Level 6 features. The Level 1 feature applies "before or after you cast a spell." The Level 6 features, however, applies "whenever you start casting a spell." Clearly, "when you start casting a spell" can be a mechanically distinct phase from "you cast a spell." But is it always?
Chapter 10 does provide the language you quoted, but doesn't really describe whether its talking about "[after you] cast another spell" or "[whenever you start to] cast another spell."
Concentration
Some spells require you to maintain concentration in order to keep their magic active. If you lose concentration, such a spell ends.
If a spell must be maintained with concentration, that fact appears in its Duration entry, and the spell specifies how long you can concentrate on it. You can end concentration at any time (no action required).
Normal activity, such as moving and attacking, doesn't interfere with concentration. The following factors can break concentration:
Casting another spell that requires concentration. You lose concentration on a spell if you cast another spell that requires concentration. You can't concentrate on two spells at once.
...
Elsewhere in Chapter 10, there is language that suggests that the "[whenever you start to] cast another spell" is the reading to use when thinking about Concentration.
Longer Casting Times
Certain spells (including spells cast as rituals) require more time to cast: minutes or even hours. When you cast a spell with a casting time longer than a single action or reaction, you must spend your action each turn casting the spell, and you must maintain your concentration while you do so. If your concentration is broken, the spell fails, but you don't expend a spell slot. If you want to try casting the spell again, you must start over.
This multi-round state where you are "casting" the spell but not have not yet past-tense "cast" it, is still considered "when you cast a spell."
So... yes, you "cast a spell" while you are "casting" it but before it has been successfully cast. So, you drop Concentration on one Fly (and instantly plummet 500 feet) before you can finish casting the next Fly. And you drop Concentration on True Strike before you can finish casting Witch Bolt. That's correct, but it's not obvious.
"You cast another spell" is rather ambiguous in plain english, as to whether it means casting or have cast. It's not that you're wrong on the conclusion, but there's no need to be condescending about the difficulty one might have landing at that conclusion, and also... you're just flat out wrong about 5E not drawing a distinction between the two phases.
See the Storm Sorcerer's Level 1 and Level 6 features. The Level 1 feature applies "before or after you cast a spell." The Level 6 features, however, applies "whenever you start casting a spell." Clearly, "when you start casting a spell" can be a mechanically distinct phase from "you cast a spell." But is it always?
That does nothing to establish that there’s a difference between “when you cast” and “when you start to cast.” “Before or after you cast” 100% is not “when you cast.” Saying that “before or after you cast” is different from “when you start to cast” is obviously true, but not relevant to anything I’m saying.
I’m definitely open to the idea that somewhere the game uses “when you cast” and “when you start to cast” to mean different things, but I’m not aware of any such case, and despite your claim, you haven’t provided one.
I’m not 100% that you’re reading things this way, so I apologize in advance if I’m clarifying something here that you already understand, but “when you cast” is present tense, not past tense. I’m quite confident in asserting that the rules text never uses “cast” in the past tense anywhere.
Sage Advice is not and should not be interpreted as Rules text, but its quite clear that saying "when cast" always means "when you start to cast" is not what [at least one of] the designers intended. Even if JC's interpretation is wrong (and it often is), again, a good reason to give someone else wrestling with this question and not seeing it as plain-as-the-nose-on-your-face as you do the benefit of the doubt that they aren't simply failing to read the rules.
Well, again, thanks for your input. I truly am not as enlightened as you all when it comes to the fifth edition of the game, and it would seem that I have decided to interpret this rule entirely wrong. But that's ok.
We've decided that the die role is an intrecit part to this equation, because if the role misses, there is no second concentration spell to affect the first. The first spell ends on the die tole so does not affect the second. So we allowed this combination.
Watched your link, yeah, like that which is why we (ok I) thought it might be a little better if you could tie it to a slightly higher spell and make the advantage meaningful. Casting witchbolt at 3rd or 4th level, with a miss resulting in the lose of the spell... that gives true strike some meaning. But to use it with a cantrip, something that you have an infinite number of... absolutely no point.
Can you use true strike to gain advantage on your atack role using witch bolt?
Witch Bolt uses a spell attack roll, and that is an attack roll. I'm not sure if it is the intention of the designers to use True Strike in that way but, I would allow it unless I could find a real reason not to.
Entry on the subject. Relevant part in bold.
Attack Rolls
When you make an attack, your attack roll determines whether the attack hits or misses. To make an attack roll, roll a d20 and add the appropriate modifiers. If the total of the roll plus modifiers equals or exceeds the target's Armor Class (AC), the attack hits. The AC of a character is determined at character creation, whereas the AC of a monster is in its stat block.
Modifiers to the Roll
When a character makes an attack roll, the two most common modifiers to the roll are an ability modifier and the character's proficiency bonus. When a monster makes an attack roll, it uses whatever modifier is provided in its stat block.
Ability Modifier. The ability modifier used for a melee weapon attack is Strength, and the ability modifier used for a ranged weapon attack is Dexterity. Weapons that have the finesse or thrown property break this rule.
Some spells also require an attack roll. The ability modifier used for a spell attack depends on the spellcasting ability of the spellcaster, as explained in chapter 10.
Proficiency Bonus. You add your proficiency bonus to your attack roll when you attack using a weapon with which you have proficiency, as well as when you attack with a spell.
Rolling 1 or 20
Sometimes fate blesses or curses a combatant, causing the novice to hit and the veteran to miss.
If the d20 roll for an attack is a 20, the attack hits regardless of any modifiers or the target's AC. This is called a critical hit, which is explained later in this chapter.
If the d20 roll for an attack is a 1, the attack misses regardless of any modifiers or the target's AC.
No, you cannot. Both spells require concentration. Once you start casting Witch Bolt, True Strike’s effect ends (or vice versa).
See, this is the discussion I'm involved with, but as I see it there is no overlap in the spells so no loss of concentration.
True strike ends when you role the die, witch bolt starts after you role the die, if your role is successful.
If there was not the die role separating the two, or if you try to do both in one round. Then yeah I see it not working, but I believe the die role delineates between the two.
True Strike ends when you cast another concentration spell. The dice roll from Witch Bolt comes once your spell is cast. Thus there is no overlap and you do not gain advantage.
I am one with the Force. The Force is with me.
Lol. That's the midt confusing response to this question for me yet, no overlap and no advantage. It's like, the spell works fine, it just doesn't work.
Thanks for your input, have a great day.
I think than my other friend us spot on. True strike has got to be the most useless cantrip there is. It's like having a thief susdefully hid in shadow only to come out and introduce himself to the city guard and ask how his nights going.
Yes, it is a useless cantrip.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KXLID2oZYI
I am one with the Force. The Force is with me.
I don't really understand what you're saying here. True Strike is a concentration spell, which means it stops working when you stop concentrating. That's the whole point of a concentration spell. Witch Bolt is also a concentration spell, which means you have to stop concentrating on anything else to start casting it. This is the incredibly simple foundational premise of concentration in 5e.
I wouldn't call it simple and foundational, I think it catches a lot of people off guard that you don't stop one concentration spell when you cast the other, but rather when you start to cast the other. Leads to things like being unable to maintain Fly through multiple durations, etc., it catches a lot of people off guard.
But yeah, True Strike is tough to use, not a lot of point to it other than maybe trying to ensure that your Chromatic Orb doesn't wiff.
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The rules don’t make a distinction between those two things. With some specific exceptions (extra attack, for example), actions are atomic. Narratively, we obviously think of and describe them as taking time, but that time has no mechanical significance.
This is very simple and foundational. It says what it means and it means what it says. It leaves no room for confusion. If anyone is caught off guard, it’s because they’ve come to the table with certain assumptions and haven’t actually read the rule.
"You cast another spell" is rather ambiguous in plain english, as to whether it means casting or have cast. It's not that you're wrong on the conclusion, but there's no need to be condescending about the difficulty one might have landing at that conclusion, and also... you're just flat out wrong about 5E not drawing a distinction between the two phases.
See the Storm Sorcerer's Level 1 and Level 6 features. The Level 1 feature applies "before or after you cast a spell." The Level 6 features, however, applies "whenever you start casting a spell." Clearly, "when you start casting a spell" can be a mechanically distinct phase from "you cast a spell." But is it always?
Chapter 10 does provide the language you quoted, but doesn't really describe whether its talking about "[after you] cast another spell" or "[whenever you start to] cast another spell."
Elsewhere in Chapter 10, there is language that suggests that the "[whenever you start to] cast another spell" is the reading to use when thinking about Concentration.
This multi-round state where you are "casting" the spell but not have not yet past-tense "cast" it, is still considered "when you cast a spell."
So... yes, you "cast a spell" while you are "casting" it but before it has been successfully cast. So, you drop Concentration on one Fly (and instantly plummet 500 feet) before you can finish casting the next Fly. And you drop Concentration on True Strike before you can finish casting Witch Bolt. That's correct, but it's not obvious.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
That does nothing to establish that there’s a difference between “when you cast” and “when you start to cast.” “Before or after you cast” 100% is not “when you cast.” Saying that “before or after you cast” is different from “when you start to cast” is obviously true, but not relevant to anything I’m saying.
I’m definitely open to the idea that somewhere the game uses “when you cast” and “when you start to cast” to mean different things, but I’m not aware of any such case, and despite your claim, you haven’t provided one.
I’m not 100% that you’re reading things this way, so I apologize in advance if I’m clarifying something here that you already understand, but “when you cast” is present tense, not past tense. I’m quite confident in asserting that the rules text never uses “cast” in the past tense anywhere.
Well, Mage Slayer , according to the Sage Advice interpretation provided by Jeremy Crawford, triggers after a spell has been cast , despite saying "when a creature casts".
Sage Advice is not and should not be interpreted as Rules text, but its quite clear that saying "when cast" always means "when you start to cast" is not what [at least one of] the designers intended. Even if JC's interpretation is wrong (and it often is), again, a good reason to give someone else wrestling with this question and not seeing it as plain-as-the-nose-on-your-face as you do the benefit of the doubt that they aren't simply failing to read the rules.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Well, again, thanks for your input. I truly am not as enlightened as you all when it comes to the fifth edition of the game, and it would seem that I have decided to interpret this rule entirely wrong. But that's ok.
We've decided that the die role is an intrecit part to this equation, because if the role misses, there is no second concentration spell to affect the first. The first spell ends on the die tole so does not affect the second. So we allowed this combination.
Again thanks for your input.
Watched your link, yeah, like that which is why we (ok I) thought it might be a little better if you could tie it to a slightly higher spell and make the advantage meaningful. Casting witchbolt at 3rd or 4th level, with a miss resulting in the lose of the spell... that gives true strike some meaning. But to use it with a cantrip, something that you have an infinite number of... absolutely no point.
Really missing 2nd ed again.
Anyone want to explain to an old person how to deleat my account?