I think I'm having a bad research day in the sourcebooks. I'm looking for information when I have a player that wants to perform a range (bow) attack at a creature that has some party members also engaged in it. The discussion that came up is that a player cannot shoot into a grouping unless they have a direct line of sight others pointed out that since the 5-foot space means there is enough open room to shoot 'around/through' on of the engaged player.
On the battle map the player setup looked roughly like what I have outlined below.
P4
[P3][P1][ ] [ ][C ][ ] [ ][ ][P2]
I thought P4 shooting through P3/P1 would result in a penalty like half-coverage but if the player used their movement to get on the diagonal that would be a clear shot.
In short, I'm looking to see if there is a RAW for range attacks into groups or shooting through friendly space. Also any input into the subject matter would be greatly appreciated.
RAW, no, your own party members don't obstruct your view. It's one of those details that's more part of the "game" aspect of D&D at the sacrifice of realism. In that same vein, if P4 shoots at C and misses, RAW there's no chance for the ranged attack to keep going on hit P2. Ranged attacks just kind of... stop existing once it's determined whether they hit or miss their intended targets.
Your thought about half cover unless they move to the diagonal is absolutely correct. In your mapped example, I might even give three-quarters cover. The rule on half cover is as follows: “A target has half cover if an obstacle blocks at least half of its body. The obstacle might be a low wall, a large piece of furniture, a narrow tree trunk, or a creature, whether that creature is an enemy or a friend.”
A good way to quickly figure this out is to pick a corner of the attacker’s square and draw lines from it to the four corners of the target square. If half of those lines go through an occupied square, it’s half cover. More is three-quarters. Or you can just decide what makes the most sense based on the situation.
RAW, no, your own party members don't obstruct your view. It's one of those details that's more part of the "game" aspect of D&D at the sacrifice of realism. In that same vein, if P4 shoots at C and misses, RAW there's no chance for the ranged attack to keep going on hit P2. Ranged attacks just kind of... stop existing once it's determined whether they hit or miss their intended targets.
RAW this is incorrect. Allies or enemies, both can obstruct your view and give your target partial (1/2, 3/4) or total cover depending on the circumstances.
PHB p196
"A target with half cover has a +2 bonus to AC and Dexterity saving throws. A target has half cover if an obstacle blocks at least half of its body. The obstacle might be a low wall, a large piece of furniture, a narrow tree trunk, or a creature, whether that creature is an enemy or a friend.
A target with three-quarters cover has a +5 bonus to AC and Dexterity saving throws. A target has three quarters cover if about three-quarters of it is covered by an obstacle. The obstacle might be a portcullis, an arrow slit, or a thick tree trunk."
DMG p251 - determining cover when playing on a grid
COVER To determine whether a target has cover against an attack or other effect on a grid, choose a corner of the attacker's space or the point of origin of an area of effect. Then trace imaginary lines from that corner to every corner of any one square the target occupies. If one or two of those lines are blocked by an obstacle (including another creature), the target has half cover. If three or four of those lines are blocked but the attack can still reach the target (such as when the target is behind an arrow slit), the target has three-quarters cover."
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RAW shots that miss your target have no effect on anyone unless using the optional "Hitting Cover" rule on pg 272 of the DMG. However, if you miss, you can never hit something behind your target unless using homebrewed critical miss rules.
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In the OP example, the target should get at least 1/2 cover unless the shooter moves to a position where the line of sight is not obstructed.
Ah, thanks for correcting me. I was going off of what has come up a few times in my local Adventure's League... I think the DM's might have been simplifying just to keep the games running more smoothly with the large groups (it was common to have groups of 8-10 players), where anyone with ranged attacks almost never had clear shots at targets.
I'd even consider going as far as allowing a critical miss. If they roll a 1 trying to hit the intended target, then they roll to-hit again against the other characters in the line of fire (in this case, P1, P2, and P3 are all valid if no movement), in order. Not sure how you'd parse whether P1 or P3 first, but then P2 would be after both of them.
Ah, thanks for correcting me. I was going off of what has come up a few times in my local Adventure's League... I think the DM's might have been simplifying just to keep the games running more smoothly with the large groups (it was common to have groups of 8-10 players), where anyone with ranged attacks almost never had clear shots at targets.
I've noticed my league DMs lightening penalties as well. The only time allies provided cover was when there were 3 people and a horse on a 10×10 wagon (theatre of the mind, no grid).
RAW, no, your own party members don't obstruct your view. It's one of those details that's more part of the "game" aspect of D&D at the sacrifice of realism. In that same vein, if P4 shoots at C and misses, RAW there's no chance for the ranged attack to keep going on hit P2. Ranged attacks just kind of... stop existing once it's determined whether they hit or miss their intended targets.
RAW this is incorrect. Allies or enemies, both can obstruct your view and give your target partial (1/2, 3/4) or total cover depending on the circumstances.
PHB p196
"A target with half cover has a +2 bonus to AC and Dexterity saving throws. A target has half cover if an obstacle blocks at least half of its body. The obstacle might be a low wall, a large piece of furniture, a narrow tree trunk, or a creature, whether that creature is an enemy or a friend.
A target with three-quarters cover has a +5 bonus to AC and Dexterity saving throws. A target has three quarters cover if about three-quarters of it is covered by an obstacle. The obstacle might be a portcullis, an arrow slit, or a thick tree trunk."
DMG p251 - determining cover when playing on a grid
COVER To determine whether a target has cover against an attack or other effect on a grid, choose a corner of the attacker's space or the point of origin of an area of effect. Then trace imaginary lines from that corner to every corner of any one square the target occupies. If one or two of those lines are blocked by an obstacle (including another creature), the target has half cover. If three or four of those lines are blocked but the attack can still reach the target (such as when the target is behind an arrow slit), the target has three-quarters cover."
------------
RAW shots that miss your target have no effect on anyone unless using the optional "Hitting Cover" rule on pg 272 of the DMG. However, if you miss, you can never hit something behind your target unless using homebrewed critical miss rules.
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In the OP example, the target should get at least 1/2 cover unless the shooter moves to a position where the line of sight is not obstructed.
This is why you get the Sharpshooter Feat which helps the shooter miss his/her friends when shooting into melee, May hit a friend on a fumble (DM call) and in that case hope they didn't go for the -5 to hit, +10 to damage lol
Note that relative size may make a difference for cover, though the rules don't say specifically -- no number of humans will give a 15' tall giant half cover (not that anything in 5e says how tall each giant type is).
Note that relative size may make a difference for cover, though the rules don't say specifically -- no number of humans will give a 15' tall giant half cover (not that anything in 5e says how tall each giant type is).
"A target has half cover if an obstacle blocks at least half of its body."
So you're correct and backed up by RAW.
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I think I'm having a bad research day in the sourcebooks. I'm looking for information when I have a player that wants to perform a range (bow) attack at a creature that has some party members also engaged in it. The discussion that came up is that a player cannot shoot into a grouping unless they have a direct line of sight others pointed out that since the 5-foot space means there is enough open room to shoot 'around/through' on of the engaged player.
On the battle map the player setup looked roughly like what I have outlined below.
P4
[P3][P1][ ]
[ ][C ][ ]
[ ][ ][P2]
I thought P4 shooting through P3/P1 would result in a penalty like half-coverage but if the player used their movement to get on the diagonal that would be a clear shot.
In short, I'm looking to see if there is a RAW for range attacks into groups or shooting through friendly space. Also any input into the subject matter would be greatly appreciated.
RAW, no, your own party members don't obstruct your view. It's one of those details that's more part of the "game" aspect of D&D at the sacrifice of realism. In that same vein, if P4 shoots at C and misses, RAW there's no chance for the ranged attack to keep going on hit P2. Ranged attacks just kind of... stop existing once it's determined whether they hit or miss their intended targets.
Watch Crits for Breakfast, an adults-only RP-Heavy Roll20 Livestream at twitch.tv/afterdisbooty
And now you too can play with the amazing art and assets we use in Roll20 for our campaign at Hazel's Emporium
Your thought about half cover unless they move to the diagonal is absolutely correct. In your mapped example, I might even give three-quarters cover. The rule on half cover is as follows: “A target has half cover if an obstacle blocks at least half of its body. The obstacle might be a low wall, a large piece of furniture, a narrow tree trunk, or a creature, whether that creature is an enemy or a friend.”
A good way to quickly figure this out is to pick a corner of the attacker’s square and draw lines from it to the four corners of the target square. If half of those lines go through an occupied square, it’s half cover. More is three-quarters. Or you can just decide what makes the most sense based on the situation.
It should be at least half cover.
RAW this is incorrect. Allies or enemies, both can obstruct your view and give your target partial (1/2, 3/4) or total cover depending on the circumstances.
PHB p196
"A target with half cover has a +2 bonus to AC and Dexterity saving throws. A target has half cover if an obstacle blocks at least half of its body. The obstacle might be a low wall, a large piece of furniture, a narrow tree trunk, or a creature, whether that creature is an enemy or a friend.
A target with three-quarters cover has a +5 bonus to AC and Dexterity saving throws. A target has three quarters cover if about three-quarters of it is covered by an obstacle. The obstacle might be a portcullis, an arrow slit, or a thick tree trunk."
DMG p251 - determining cover when playing on a grid
COVER
To determine whether a target has cover against an attack or other effect on a grid, choose a corner of the attacker's space or the point of origin of an area of effect. Then trace imaginary lines from that corner to every corner of any one square the target occupies. If one or two of those lines are blocked by an obstacle (including another creature), the target has half cover. If three or four of those lines are blocked but the attack can still reach the target (such as when the target is behind an arrow slit), the target has three-quarters cover."
------------
RAW shots that miss your target have no effect on anyone unless using the optional "Hitting Cover" rule on pg 272 of the DMG. However, if you miss, you can never hit something behind your target unless using homebrewed critical miss rules.
------------
In the OP example, the target should get at least 1/2 cover unless the shooter moves to a position where the line of sight is not obstructed.
Ah, thanks for correcting me. I was going off of what has come up a few times in my local Adventure's League... I think the DM's might have been simplifying just to keep the games running more smoothly with the large groups (it was common to have groups of 8-10 players), where anyone with ranged attacks almost never had clear shots at targets.
Watch Crits for Breakfast, an adults-only RP-Heavy Roll20 Livestream at twitch.tv/afterdisbooty
And now you too can play with the amazing art and assets we use in Roll20 for our campaign at Hazel's Emporium
I'd even consider going as far as allowing a critical miss. If they roll a 1 trying to hit the intended target, then they roll to-hit again against the other characters in the line of fire (in this case, P1, P2, and P3 are all valid if no movement), in order. Not sure how you'd parse whether P1 or P3 first, but then P2 would be after both of them.
I've noticed my league DMs lightening penalties as well. The only time allies provided cover was when there were 3 people and a horse on a 10×10 wagon (theatre of the mind, no grid).
This is why you get the Sharpshooter Feat which helps the shooter miss his/her friends when shooting into melee, May hit a friend on a fumble (DM call) and in that case hope they didn't go for the -5 to hit, +10 to damage lol
Note that relative size may make a difference for cover, though the rules don't say specifically -- no number of humans will give a 15' tall giant half cover (not that anything in 5e says how tall each giant type is).
"A target has half cover if an obstacle blocks at least half of its body."
So you're correct and backed up by RAW.