When a swashbuckler with fancy footwork approaches a polearm master to attack, the polearm master's opportunity attack is triggered before the swashbuckler can make the attack.
Polearm Master: While you are wielding a glaive, halberd, pike, or quarterstaff, other creatures provoke an opportunity attack from you when they enter your reach.
Fancy Footwork: During your turn, if you make a melee attack against a creature, that creature can’t make opportunity attacks against you for the rest of your turn.
The rest might be open to interpretation. Here is why I think that. If the swashbuckler attacks at 5ft and the polearm master opportunity attacks at 5 ft with a quarterstaff, I would say that the swashbuckler finishes his turn, as it IS his turn, and that the reaction happens after his attack. The reaction is ruined due to the swashbuckler's feature.
Some people say that a reaction interrupts other actions immediately, I could see that as well. Basically, the polearm master beats the swashbuckler to the punch.
Yes. The OA would trigger when the FF character enters the PAM reach, either at 5’ or 10’ depending on what the PAM is using. Then the FF can attack as usual. FF basically allows the rogue to attack and get away without using their bonus action disengage. Saving it for something else. This would obviously be complicated if the PAM also has sentinel and a reach weapon, since then the FF would have their move stopped before they got close enough to melee.
Yes. The OA would trigger when the FF character enters the PAM reach, either at 5’ or 10’ depending on what the PAM is using. Then the FF can attack as usual. FF basically allows the rogue to attack and get away without using their bonus action disengage. Saving it for something else. This would obviously be complicated if the PAM also has sentinel and a reach weapon, since then the FF would have their move stopped before they got close enough to melee.
This makes the assumption that the reaction interrupts the planned attack of the swashbuckler, as I mentioned above.
Yes. The OA would trigger when the FF character enters the PAM reach, either at 5’ or 10’ depending on what the PAM is using. Then the FF can attack as usual. FF basically allows the rogue to attack and get away without using their bonus action disengage. Saving it for something else. This would obviously be complicated if the PAM also has sentinel and a reach weapon, since then the FF would have their move stopped before they got close enough to melee.
This makes the assumption that the reaction interrupts the planned attack of the swashbuckler, as I mentioned above.
It does. A planned attack is not yet an attack. A character moves, and then attacks, they don’t do both simultaneously. The OA would be triggered when the swashbuckler enters the square during their move, before it could take the attack action.
Also OAs generally interrupt. My tooltip skills are lacking, but this is from the DMG:
Use this rule of thumb: follow whatever timing is specified in the reaction’s description. For example, the opportunity attack and the shield spell are clear about the fact that they can interrupt their triggers.
The key is that the PAM reaction is the opponent entering their reach. Reactions happen immediately after their trigger (unless otherwise described) and so the PAM OA happens immediately after the Swashbuckler entered their reach - but before the Swashbuckler could attack.
I would see this happening that way regardless of reach.
No expert here but I would tend to agree that the swashbuckler would not get to attack first, PAM hits first. Seems like it would interrupt the attack just like the counterspell interrupts a spell
If you had two different abilities with a "when you move within 5 feet of an enemy, X" trigger condition opposing a "when an enemy moves within 5 feet of you, Y" trigger condition, then I could see needing to get into splitting hairs about whose "when" is more immediate (or if in fact they are simultaneous). But for this situation, PAM clearly hits first before the swashbuckler can switch to a new action, since it's the only "when" trigger on the movement.
If you had two different abilities with a "when you move within 5 feet of an enemy, X" trigger condition opposing a "when an enemy moves within 5 feet of you, Y" trigger condition, then I could see needing to get into splitting hairs about whose "when" is more immediate (or if in fact they are simultaneous). But for this situation, PAM clearly hits first before the swashbuckler can switch to a new action, since it's the only "when" trigger on the movement.
There are actual rules in XGtE about simultaneously occurring events, here they are:
Simultaneous Effects
Most effects in the game happen in succession, following an order set by the rules or the DM. In rare cases, effects can happen at the same time, especially at the start or end of a creature’s turn. If two or more things happen at the same time on a character or monster’s turn, the person at the game table — whether player or DM — who controls that creature decides the order in which those things happen. For example, if two effects occur at the end of a player character’s turn, the player decides which of the two effects happens first.
My original opinion that the creature whose turn the situation occurs on, is allowed to complete their action first, is supported here. If the Rogue can make a hit when he get's within 5 ft of his enemy AND the OA of PAM is triggered when the same conditions are met, the Rogue can decide that his affects apply first.
If you had two different abilities with a "when you move within 5 feet of an enemy, X" trigger condition opposing a "when an enemy moves within 5 feet of you, Y" trigger condition, then I could see needing to get into splitting hairs about whose "when" is more immediate (or if in fact they are simultaneous). But for this situation, PAM clearly hits first before the swashbuckler can switch to a new action, since it's the only "when" trigger on the movement.
There are actual rules in XGtE about simultaneously occurring events, here they are:
Simultaneous Effects
Most effects in the game happen in succession, following an order set by the rules or the DM. In rare cases, effects can happen at the same time, especially at the start or end of a creature’s turn. If two or more things happen at the same time on a character or monster’s turn, the person at the game table — whether player or DM — who controls that creature decides the order in which those things happen. For example, if two effects occur at the end of a player character’s turn, the player decides which of the two effects happens first.
My original opinion that the creature whose turn the situation occurs on, is allowed to complete their action first, is supported here. If the Rogue can make a hit when he get's within 5 ft of his enemy AND the OA of PAM is triggered when the same conditions are met, the Rogue can decide that his affects apply first.
I really don’t see making an attack as an “effect”
if it was something like a wizards Contingency spell with the “effect” of “if I’m within 5 feet of an enemy the thunderwave spell goes off” then yes I would let the player decide which happened first, possibly pushing the PAM enemy back so out of melee range negating the PAM OA
While the simultaneous effect guidance is a really good tool, these effects do not happen simultaneously.
while attacks can be broken up during movement, the individual attacks made at those different points of movement are separate and different events happening on a creatures turn.
Polearm master: “while you are wielding a glaive, halberd, pike, quarterstaff, or spear, other creatures provoke an opportunity attack from you when they enter the reach you have with that weapon.”
Fancy footwork: “during your turn, if you make a melee attack against a creature, that creature can’t make opportunity attacks against you for the rest of your turn”
While the polearm feat gives the specific ability to react and attack as soon as a creature enters its reach, fancy footwork’s feature only kicks in after an attack is actually made. How many DMs run their monsters in a way that attacks the polearm master before the AOO is used? I’d venture none, and as such adding fancy footwork wouldn’t make a difference since the AOO comes first.
making an attack is not the same as intending to make an attack.
fancy footwork would mitigate the number of attacks from a high level cavalier.
it may also be worth noting that fancy footwork does not stipulate the reach of the melee attack, nor that the melee attack even be made with a weapon.
as such the feature works with reach weapons, like a glaive or whip. It also works with a bugbears long limbed feature. A bugbear swashbuckler who somehow gained use of a whip could potentially use its first attack to attack a polearm master from 15ft away to disable their AOO, then move in to attack as a bonus action for sneak damage and slip away to do this again next turn. This requires bugbear, whip, dual wielder feat, and probably proficiency with whips to be a bit more reliable.
fancy footwork works with melee spell attacks too, so shocking grasp, thornwhip, primal savagery, inflict wounds, flame blade, spiritual weapon, vampiric touch, steel wind strike, and Mordenkainen’s sword.
A bugbear swashbuckler who somehow gained use of a whip could potentially use its first attack to attack a polearm master from 15ft away to disable their AOO, then move in to attack as a bonus action for sneak damage and slip away to do this again next turn. This requires bugbear, whip, dual wielder feat, and probably proficiency with whips to be a bit more reliable.
The XGtE quote does answer my hypothetical of two simultaneous “when move within 5 feet” abilities... but as others have replied, it isn’t enough to allow a player to delay an enemy’s OA so that he can take his attack first. Choosing to take an attack is not an “effect” or a triggered ability, in the way an OA is.
It is entirely dependent on where everyone is positioned at the start of the turn, and the order of operations for the Swashbuckler.
If the Swashbuckler begins their turn within the reach of the PAM creature (adjacent square or one square away), the Swashbuckler would be able to move around (within reach) and make an attack without triggering an OA.
If the Swashbuckler is not already within PAM reach, PAM would trigger before the Swashbuckler has a chance to lock it down.
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Is this statement correct?
When a swashbuckler with fancy footwork approaches a polearm master to attack, the polearm master's opportunity attack is triggered before the swashbuckler can make the attack.
Polearm Master: While you are wielding a glaive, halberd, pike, or quarterstaff, other creatures provoke an opportunity attack from you when they enter your reach.
Fancy Footwork: During your turn, if you make a melee attack against a creature, that creature can’t make opportunity attacks against you for the rest of your turn.
Yes, if they are using 10 ft reach.
The rest might be open to interpretation. Here is why I think that. If the swashbuckler attacks at 5ft and the polearm master opportunity attacks at 5 ft with a quarterstaff, I would say that the swashbuckler finishes his turn, as it IS his turn, and that the reaction happens after his attack. The reaction is ruined due to the swashbuckler's feature.
Some people say that a reaction interrupts other actions immediately, I could see that as well. Basically, the polearm master beats the swashbuckler to the punch.
Yes. The OA would trigger when the FF character enters the PAM reach, either at 5’ or 10’ depending on what the PAM is using. Then the FF can attack as usual. FF basically allows the rogue to attack and get away without using their bonus action disengage. Saving it for something else.
This would obviously be complicated if the PAM also has sentinel and a reach weapon, since then the FF would have their move stopped before they got close enough to melee.
This makes the assumption that the reaction interrupts the planned attack of the swashbuckler, as I mentioned above.
Thank you fellas. That sentinel/PAM combo is nice.
It does. A planned attack is not yet an attack. A character moves, and then attacks, they don’t do both simultaneously. The OA would be triggered when the swashbuckler enters the square during their move, before it could take the attack action.
Also OAs generally interrupt. My tooltip skills are lacking, but this is from the DMG:
Use this rule of thumb: follow whatever timing is specified in the reaction’s description. For example, the opportunity attack and the shield spell are clear about the fact that they can interrupt their triggers.
The key is that the PAM reaction is the opponent entering their reach. Reactions happen immediately after their trigger (unless otherwise described) and so the PAM OA happens immediately after the Swashbuckler entered their reach - but before the Swashbuckler could attack.
I would see this happening that way regardless of reach.
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No expert here but I would tend to agree that the swashbuckler would not get to attack first, PAM hits first. Seems like it would interrupt the attack just like the counterspell interrupts a spell
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If you had two different abilities with a "when you move within 5 feet of an enemy, X" trigger condition opposing a "when an enemy moves within 5 feet of you, Y" trigger condition, then I could see needing to get into splitting hairs about whose "when" is more immediate (or if in fact they are simultaneous). But for this situation, PAM clearly hits first before the swashbuckler can switch to a new action, since it's the only "when" trigger on the movement.
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There are actual rules in XGtE about simultaneously occurring events, here they are:
Simultaneous Effects
Most effects in the game happen in succession, following an order set by the rules or the DM. In rare cases, effects can happen at the same time, especially at the start or end of a creature’s turn. If two or more things happen at the same time on a character or monster’s turn, the person at the game table — whether player or DM — who controls that creature decides the order in which those things happen. For example, if two effects occur at the end of a player character’s turn, the player decides which of the two effects happens first.
My original opinion that the creature whose turn the situation occurs on, is allowed to complete their action first, is supported here. If the Rogue can make a hit when he get's within 5 ft of his enemy AND the OA of PAM is triggered when the same conditions are met, the Rogue can decide that his affects apply first.
I really don’t see making an attack as an “effect”
if it was something like a wizards Contingency spell with the “effect” of “if I’m within 5 feet of an enemy the thunderwave spell goes off” then yes I would let the player decide which happened first, possibly pushing the PAM enemy back so out of melee range negating the PAM OA
making an attack is not an effect, in my book.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
While the simultaneous effect guidance is a really good tool, these effects do not happen simultaneously.
while attacks can be broken up during movement, the individual attacks made at those different points of movement are separate and different events happening on a creatures turn.
Polearm master: “while you are wielding a glaive, halberd, pike, quarterstaff, or spear, other creatures provoke an opportunity attack from you when they enter the reach you have with that weapon.”
Fancy footwork: “during your turn, if you make a melee attack against a creature, that creature can’t make opportunity attacks against you for the rest of your turn”
While the polearm feat gives the specific ability to react and attack as soon as a creature enters its reach, fancy footwork’s feature only kicks in after an attack is actually made. How many DMs run their monsters in a way that attacks the polearm master before the AOO is used? I’d venture none, and as such adding fancy footwork wouldn’t make a difference since the AOO comes first.
making an attack is not the same as intending to make an attack.
fancy footwork would mitigate the number of attacks from a high level cavalier.
it may also be worth noting that fancy footwork does not stipulate the reach of the melee attack, nor that the melee attack even be made with a weapon.
as such the feature works with reach weapons, like a glaive or whip. It also works with a bugbears long limbed feature. A bugbear swashbuckler who somehow gained use of a whip could potentially use its first attack to attack a polearm master from 15ft away to disable their AOO, then move in to attack as a bonus action for sneak damage and slip away to do this again next turn. This requires bugbear, whip, dual wielder feat, and probably proficiency with whips to be a bit more reliable.
fancy footwork works with melee spell attacks too, so shocking grasp, thornwhip, primal savagery, inflict wounds, flame blade, spiritual weapon, vampiric touch, steel wind strike, and Mordenkainen’s sword.
This is awesome.
The XGtE quote does answer my hypothetical of two simultaneous “when move within 5 feet” abilities... but as others have replied, it isn’t enough to allow a player to delay an enemy’s OA so that he can take his attack first. Choosing to take an attack is not an “effect” or a triggered ability, in the way an OA is.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
It is entirely dependent on where everyone is positioned at the start of the turn, and the order of operations for the Swashbuckler.
If the Swashbuckler begins their turn within the reach of the PAM creature (adjacent square or one square away), the Swashbuckler would be able to move around (within reach) and make an attack without triggering an OA.
If the Swashbuckler is not already within PAM reach, PAM would trigger before the Swashbuckler has a chance to lock it down.
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