Hello all, first time DM and first time poster here.
Currently running the Lost Mine of Phandelver and the party ran into an encounter with a Nothic. I made the Nothic climb up and successfully hide amongst the darkness of the cavern ceiling, however it was immediately spotted by the first member of the party on their turn. Playing on Roll20, I revealed the hidden token which meant that the other three members of the party could see it and they asked "So now we can all see it right?" I had no idea so just said yep, assuming the first member sort of indicated the monster's position to the others. Looked through the handbook though and couldn't find anything about this specific query.
If a hidden creature is spotted (during combat) then are they revealed to the entire party? Or only to that specific player?
(Creature succeeded on a stealth check which was higher than party passive perception but the subsequent player used their Search action to succeed on an active perception check higher than the creature's stealth check)
Sorry if this is trivial, still learning the ropes.
Kinda like how when you have players roll a perception check and describe what they see off in the distance the PC is obviously going to point it out to the others then the others will have "seen it." I would rule everyone knows because a PC spent their action/turn and presumably spoke saying "fourth stalactites on the ceiling, looks fishy."
If you'd allow the Rogue to stay hidden after silently assassinating one sentry without making a noise to alert the other a few feet away, then you should allow an NPC to stay hidden to the rest of hte party despite one player finding them, unless that player chooses to/is able to communicate that to the others (normally as simple as a free action, but could be complicated by Silence, Blindness/Deafness, or other context.
I think the darkness of the cavern (well-lit on ground but pitch black on the ceiling) may have also confused us a bit in that scenario, but I'll probably stick with the way we handled it with one player spotting and conveying the information to the party. That perception check reference made sense.
Here is the real question. How did your party member have a turn to use an action to Search? We're they still in combat from some other encounter? If not, passive Perceptions should have been all that applied. This is really the fault of the Surprise rule that tells us to roll initiative. Even though the characters shouldn't know there is combat ahead. Rolling initiative pretty clearly tells us that is the case.
This is really the fault of the Surprise rule that tells us to roll initiative. Even though the characters shouldn't know there is combat ahead. Rolling initiative pretty clearly tells us that is the case.
I personally don't see this a a problem. The players move their characters into an ambush. The DM says role initiative. The players know know there is about to be combat but their characters can't do anything (other than things like get hurt!) while they are surprised.
What can be a problem is when o use passive and when to use active perception. The Nothic attempts to hide from anyone entering the cavern and gets 18, more than any of the players passive perceptions. While there is no combat the DM needs to decide what to do as the party enter the cavern. If the nothic would immediately attack on sight then as soon as the party enter the DM should say roll initiative and treat the party as surprised. If it immediately does something to reveal its presence (and location) such as speaking to the party then it is no longer hidden. If it wants to remain hidden either do nothing or something which doesn't reveal itself (maybe weird insight) and one of the characters (say the monk) says something like "I look up at the roof so see if anything is hidden there" things get a bit more complicated.
Such a statement is asking for an active perception check most DMs would allow this though some would only use their passive perception. What happewns now if the player rolls 22? Can they warn the whole party or not?
What I would do in such a circumstance is I would allow the hidden creature to "hold an action" if it isn;t doing anything else even though it is out of combat and the action could be held for more than 6 seconds. I would noty allow the action to be casting a levelled spell as if the trigger isn't met in 6 seconds the spell slot would be lost. The trigger could be to attack as soon as the party come into sight (in which case they are surprised if their passive perception isn't high enough as outlined above) but it could also be if they are noticed. In this case, when the player rolls a 22 for perception the nothic sees the monk look up which triggers initiative and everyone except the monk is surprised.
If the hiding character is not "holding an action" but dong something else like weird insight then I would allow the monk to warn the party and combat would start with noone surprised.
Such a statement is asking for an active perception check most DMs would allow this though some would only use their passive perception. What happewns now if the player rolls 22? Can they warn the whole party or not?
Then that player has used their action to make a perception check and has rolled well enough to discover the monster. And I'd say that yes, the Monk can warn the party but that doesn't automatically mean that every party member notices the Nothic. Just because someone shouts "look, over there!" or something similar doesn't mean you automatically detect what they are referring to.
Such a statement is asking for an active perception check most DMs would allow this though some would only use their passive perception. What happewns now if the player rolls 22? Can they warn the whole party or not?
Then that player has used their action to make a perception check and has rolled well enough to discover the monster. And I'd say that yes, the Monk can warn the party but that doesn't automatically mean that every party member notices the Nothic. Just because someone shouts "look, over there!" or something similar doesn't mean you automatically detect what they are referring to.
agreed. the party member could say "there is Nothic over there." then I would let the party reroll perception with advantage. if they see, it they see it, if not they still know its there
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“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
You only have to spend one action trying to hide and then once you've done it, you keep whatever that result was until you are no longer hidden because you've run out of hiding or you've made a loud noise or someone discovered you. As soon as that happens--even one person discovers you--basically that nullifies whatever you rolled and if you want to hide again, you're going to have to make another check.
Which... makes no sense, because a character can hide in combat by being obscured in relation to an enemy that they want to hide from, even if they do not have obscurement from another different enemy that they aren't trying to hide in relation to. The entire Hiding section is written with vocabulary that mentions "a creature," not enemies in general, suggesting that hidden/not hidden is a state that's checked in relation to individual opponents and not the entire battlefield.
HIDING
The DM decides when circumstances are appropriate for hiding. When you try to hide, make a Dexterity (Stealth) check. Until you are discovered or you stop hiding, that check's total is contested by the Wisdom (Perception) check of any creature that actively searches for signs of your presence.
You can't hide from a creature that can see you clearly, and you give away your position if you make noise, such as shouting a warning or knocking over a vase. An invisible creature can always try to hide. Signs of its passage might still be noticed, and it does have to stay quiet.
In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around, so if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you. However, under certain circumstances, the DM might allow you to stay hidden as you approach a creature that is distracted, allowing you to gain advantage on an attack roll before you are seen.
Passive Perception. When you hide, there's a chance someone will notice you even if they aren't searching. To determine whether such a creature notices you, the DM compares your Dexterity (Stealth) check with that creature's passive Wisdom (Perception) score, which equals 10 + the creature's Wisdom modifier, as well as any other bonuses or penalties. If the creature has advantage, add 5. For disadvantage, subtract 5.
For example, if a 1st-level character (with a proficiency bonus of +2) has a Wisdom of 15 (a +2 modifier) and proficiency in Perception, he or she has a passive Wisdom (Perception) of 14.
What Can You See? One of the main factors in determining whether you can find a hidden creature or object is how well you can see in an area, which might be lightly or heavily obscured as explained in chapter 8, “Adventuring.”
JC fulla crap, his RAI rarely has much to do with RAW... but also, the invisibility/hiding/blindness/obscurement rules are a mess, as we've been over in the past, so don't get too caught up with RAW. There's more than one reasonable way to handle this scenario, I haven't heard a wrong approach yet in the thread, it just comes down to what the DM and players can agree on.
it just comes down to what the DM and players can agree on.
This pretty well sums it up. Without sounding snarky (because everything always comes down to what the players and the DM can agree on), looking at RAW and also listening to his interview, hiding and stealth in 5e were defined particularly less rigidly by design in order to have the DM make a judgment call based on the merits of the situation. While this is great for gameplay at the table, it's inherently less satisfying in a rules and game mechanics forum.
Hello all, first time DM and first time poster here.
Currently running the Lost Mine of Phandelver and the party ran into an encounter with a Nothic. I made the Nothic climb up and successfully hide amongst the darkness of the cavern ceiling, however it was immediately spotted by the first member of the party on their turn. Playing on Roll20, I revealed the hidden token which meant that the other three members of the party could see it and they asked "So now we can all see it right?" I had no idea so just said yep, assuming the first member sort of indicated the monster's position to the others. Looked through the handbook though and couldn't find anything about this specific query.
If a hidden creature is spotted (during combat) then are they revealed to the entire party? Or only to that specific player?
(Creature succeeded on a stealth check which was higher than party passive perception but the subsequent player used their Search action to succeed on an active perception check higher than the creature's stealth check)
Sorry if this is trivial, still learning the ropes.
This really I think comes down to the DM.
Kinda like how when you have players roll a perception check and describe what they see off in the distance the PC is obviously going to point it out to the others then the others will have "seen it." I would rule everyone knows because a PC spent their action/turn and presumably spoke saying "fourth stalactites on the ceiling, looks fishy."
If any adversaries detect the presence of a hidden creature, all adversaries know about it and it has to make a new attempt to hide.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
If you'd allow the Rogue to stay hidden after silently assassinating one sentry without making a noise to alert the other a few feet away, then you should allow an NPC to stay hidden to the rest of hte party despite one player finding them, unless that player chooses to/is able to communicate that to the others (normally as simple as a free action, but could be complicated by Silence, Blindness/Deafness, or other context.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Thanks for the advice!
I think the darkness of the cavern (well-lit on ground but pitch black on the ceiling) may have also confused us a bit in that scenario, but I'll probably stick with the way we handled it with one player spotting and conveying the information to the party. That perception check reference made sense.
Cheers
Here is the real question. How did your party member have a turn to use an action to Search? We're they still in combat from some other encounter? If not, passive Perceptions should have been all that applied. This is really the fault of the Surprise rule that tells us to roll initiative. Even though the characters shouldn't know there is combat ahead. Rolling initiative pretty clearly tells us that is the case.
Can you quote a rule that says that?
I personally don't see this a a problem. The players move their characters into an ambush. The DM says role initiative. The players know know there is about to be combat but their characters can't do anything (other than things like get hurt!) while they are surprised.
What can be a problem is when o use passive and when to use active perception. The Nothic attempts to hide from anyone entering the cavern and gets 18, more than any of the players passive perceptions. While there is no combat the DM needs to decide what to do as the party enter the cavern. If the nothic would immediately attack on sight then as soon as the party enter the DM should say roll initiative and treat the party as surprised. If it immediately does something to reveal its presence (and location) such as speaking to the party then it is no longer hidden. If it wants to remain hidden either do nothing or something which doesn't reveal itself (maybe weird insight) and one of the characters (say the monk) says something like "I look up at the roof so see if anything is hidden there" things get a bit more complicated.
Such a statement is asking for an active perception check most DMs would allow this though some would only use their passive perception. What happewns now if the player rolls 22? Can they warn the whole party or not?
What I would do in such a circumstance is I would allow the hidden creature to "hold an action" if it isn;t doing anything else even though it is out of combat and the action could be held for more than 6 seconds. I would noty allow the action to be casting a levelled spell as if the trigger isn't met in 6 seconds the spell slot would be lost. The trigger could be to attack as soon as the party come into sight (in which case they are surprised if their passive perception isn't high enough as outlined above) but it could also be if they are noticed. In this case, when the player rolls a 22 for perception the nothic sees the monk look up which triggers initiative and everyone except the monk is surprised.
If the hiding character is not "holding an action" but dong something else like weird insight then I would allow the monk to warn the party and combat would start with noone surprised.
Then that player has used their action to make a perception check and has rolled well enough to discover the monster. And I'd say that yes, the Monk can warn the party but that doesn't automatically mean that every party member notices the Nothic. Just because someone shouts "look, over there!" or something similar doesn't mean you automatically detect what they are referring to.
agreed. the party member could say "there is Nothic over there." then I would let the party reroll perception with advantage. if they see, it they see it, if not they still know its there
“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
Here's the RAI quote from Jeremy Crawford. You can hear it about 18:00 into a general discussion on hiding.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Which... makes no sense, because a character can hide in combat by being obscured in relation to an enemy that they want to hide from, even if they do not have obscurement from another different enemy that they aren't trying to hide in relation to. The entire Hiding section is written with vocabulary that mentions "a creature," not enemies in general, suggesting that hidden/not hidden is a state that's checked in relation to individual opponents and not the entire battlefield.
JC fulla crap, his RAI rarely has much to do with RAW... but also, the invisibility/hiding/blindness/obscurement rules are a mess, as we've been over in the past, so don't get too caught up with RAW. There's more than one reasonable way to handle this scenario, I haven't heard a wrong approach yet in the thread, it just comes down to what the DM and players can agree on.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
This pretty well sums it up. Without sounding snarky (because everything always comes down to what the players and the DM can agree on), looking at RAW and also listening to his interview, hiding and stealth in 5e were defined particularly less rigidly by design in order to have the DM make a judgment call based on the merits of the situation. While this is great for gameplay at the table, it's inherently less satisfying in a rules and game mechanics forum.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Wow, did not expect so many replies so quickly; very much appreciated. I will take all of your advice on board and thank you for your help.
You will most likely see some more newbie questions from me in the near future (if the magic of Google fails to hit).