This question is for the DM Homebrew options regarding creating a NPC/Creature.
Has there been any playtesting done regarding a creature having both Pact Tactics and Sneak Attack under their "Skills"? Specifically, would this option unbalance a creature with too many skills?
Scenario: A new "Drow Slayer" monster built around the idea that multiple "assassins" work together taking down their prey.
Pact Tactics would grant advantage to the drow slayer when "an ally (who isn't incapacitated) is within 5ft. of a target".
Sneak Attack works when the drow slayer is taking the Attack Action and has Advantage on the attack or "has an ally who isn't incapacitated within 5ft of the expected target".
Neither Pact Tactics nor Sneak Attack require an Action and are more "conditions-based" depending on the activity transpiring on the "battlefield".
My concern is whether combining these two skills gives an unfair "leg up" against PCs.
Does anyone know if 1) a current D&D 5e NPC/creature has both of these skills at the same time? and 2) if not, has there been any playtesting done which would indicate putting these two together is too powerful?
Thanks in advance for anyone's thoughts and/or time.
So you gain advantage when an ally is next to the enemy (Pack Tactics). Sneak attack triggers when either the creature has advantage on their roll or an ally is within 5 feet of the enemy.
Depending on the number of enemies, and PC level I see no issue here. Mainly because a PC Rogue will always try to get advantage on their attacks so they can apply sneak attack. Depending on the table this will happen almost every time. So as I say when I DM: "If the PCs can do it (talking about tactics) you bet the Enemies that are smart enough are going to do it too.
IMO: It can be OP, but it can also not be OP depends on the fight and how the PCs handle it, Like I said many rouges do this exact tactic, just they don't have the advantage auto built in and go for other rules like flanking.
First off, thanks to everyone who took the time to read and then write a comment. Much appreciated.
In thinking further on this scenario, I don't see too many extra benefits from putting them together. Because both are granting advantage based on an ally's 5ft proximity to the target, Sneak Attack damage would be in effect either way (by the very definition of Sneak Attack and/or Pact Tactics). All that's needed here is Advantage; Sneak Attack damage would be in effect.
The addition of Pact Tactics (in my mind) only plays a factor in any follow-on attack, meaning, if a creature (the drow slayer in this case) can conduct a multi-attack, Pact Tactics would grant Advantage on the second attack but wouldn't trigger Sneak Attack extra damage because that can only be granted once per turn (1/turn).
Sounds like you're basically designing a glass-cannon enemy - they'll do massive damage when in a group (advantage AND bonus damage) but very weak when separated.
Would probably be weird in CR terms - a single one of those enemies would probably be much weaker than their CR would suggest (whatever it ends up being), but in a group would be much stronger than their CR would suggest.
Seems like it would mostly make encounter balancing hard, maybe figure out the CR separately for "alone" vs "in a group" and figure out which one's more applicable to whichever encounter you design.
Thing is, in D&D, nothing on an NPC is "Overpowered". The Tarrasque exists; Tiamat exists. Pack Tactics + Sneak Attack certainly isn't more powerful than either of those, so it's not OP for D&D! So the main question isn't "Is this ability too powerful", it's "How powerful is this monster."
First off, thanks to everyone who took the time to read and then write a comment. Much appreciated.
In thinking further on this scenario, I don't see too many extra benefits from putting them together. Because both are granting advantage based on an ally's 5ft proximity to the target, Sneak Attack damage would be in effect either way (by the very definition of Sneak Attack and/or Pact Tactics). All that's needed here is Advantage; Sneak Attack damage would be in effect.
The addition of Pact Tactics (in my mind) only plays a factor in any follow-on attack, meaning, if a creature (the drow slayer in this case) can conduct a multi-attack, Pact Tactics would grant Advantage on the second attack but wouldn't trigger Sneak Attack extra damage because that can only be granted once per turn (1/turn).
Well, the advantage to double the chance of a crit is nice.
I must be misunderstanding the OP but pack tactics is not required. You can get sneak attack as long as there is another enemy within 5ft of your target and you don't have disadvantage on your attack. You don't also need to have advantage - though admittedly it is nice. Either one alone is enough. That is written into the description of sneak attack;
'You don’t need advantage on the attack roll if another enemy of the target is within 5 feet of it, that enemy isn’t incapacitated, and you don’t have disadvantage on the attack roll.'
It's negligible. A character with Sneak Attack gains advantage against any creature where there is an ally within 5 feet of it. Pack Tactics doesn't matter here.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
It's negligible. A character with Sneak Attack gains advantage against any creature where there is an ally within 5 feet of it. Pack Tactics doesn't matter here.
It's negligible. A character with Sneak Attack gains advantage against any creature where there is an ally within 5 feet of it. Pack Tactics doesn't matter here.
Really? That's new! :O
That's incorrect; a character with Sneak Attack doesn't need advantage if they have an ally within 5 feet of the target in order to get Sneak Attack, but they aren't granted advantage. If you use the optional flanking rules, they can get advantage by flanking the target with an ally on the other side.
That said, from experience, I would never recommend using the optional flanking rule.
You're right, I misremembered and conflated the two. Point stands as if an ally is within 5 feet of the creature, they're eligible to get SA on a qualifying attack.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Yea all they're getting is the advantage because they would already have Sneak Attack - and if you are using the flanking rules then maybe it wouldn't even add Advantage because they might already have it.
It's negligible. A character with Sneak Attack gains advantage against any creature where there is an ally within 5 feet of it. Pack Tactics doesn't matter here.
Really? That's new! :O
You realise that multiple people had already told you that earlier in the thread?
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This question is for the DM Homebrew options regarding creating a NPC/Creature.
Has there been any playtesting done regarding a creature having both Pact Tactics and Sneak Attack under their "Skills"? Specifically, would this option unbalance a creature with too many skills?
Scenario: A new "Drow Slayer" monster built around the idea that multiple "assassins" work together taking down their prey.
Pact Tactics would grant advantage to the drow slayer when "an ally (who isn't incapacitated) is within 5ft. of a target".
Sneak Attack works when the drow slayer is taking the Attack Action and has Advantage on the attack or "has an ally who isn't incapacitated within 5ft of the expected target".
Neither Pact Tactics nor Sneak Attack require an Action and are more "conditions-based" depending on the activity transpiring on the "battlefield".
My concern is whether combining these two skills gives an unfair "leg up" against PCs.
Does anyone know if 1) a current D&D 5e NPC/creature has both of these skills at the same time? and 2) if not, has there been any playtesting done which would indicate putting these two together is too powerful?
Thanks in advance for anyone's thoughts and/or time.
So you gain advantage when an ally is next to the enemy (Pack Tactics). Sneak attack triggers when either the creature has advantage on their roll or an ally is within 5 feet of the enemy.
Depending on the number of enemies, and PC level I see no issue here. Mainly because a PC Rogue will always try to get advantage on their attacks so they can apply sneak attack. Depending on the table this will happen almost every time. So as I say when I DM: "If the PCs can do it (talking about tactics) you bet the Enemies that are smart enough are going to do it too.
IMO: It can be OP, but it can also not be OP depends on the fight and how the PCs handle it, Like I said many rouges do this exact tactic, just they don't have the advantage auto built in and go for other rules like flanking.
Thanks for your thoughts!
The question isn't so much about it being unfair, you just need to factor it into their Challenge Rating.
Note that the PC's can do the same. Conjure up some Wolfs and have them knock someone prone.
I'd say that it sounds like a very viable tactics for the Drow. I mean, why wouldn't they? ;)
First off, thanks to everyone who took the time to read and then write a comment. Much appreciated.
In thinking further on this scenario, I don't see too many extra benefits from putting them together. Because both are granting advantage based on an ally's 5ft proximity to the target, Sneak Attack damage would be in effect either way (by the very definition of Sneak Attack and/or Pact Tactics). All that's needed here is Advantage; Sneak Attack damage would be in effect.
The addition of Pact Tactics (in my mind) only plays a factor in any follow-on attack, meaning, if a creature (the drow slayer in this case) can conduct a multi-attack, Pact Tactics would grant Advantage on the second attack but wouldn't trigger Sneak Attack extra damage because that can only be granted once per turn (1/turn).
Sounds like you're basically designing a glass-cannon enemy - they'll do massive damage when in a group (advantage AND bonus damage) but very weak when separated.
Would probably be weird in CR terms - a single one of those enemies would probably be much weaker than their CR would suggest (whatever it ends up being), but in a group would be much stronger than their CR would suggest.
Seems like it would mostly make encounter balancing hard, maybe figure out the CR separately for "alone" vs "in a group" and figure out which one's more applicable to whichever encounter you design.
Thing is, in D&D, nothing on an NPC is "Overpowered". The Tarrasque exists; Tiamat exists. Pack Tactics + Sneak Attack certainly isn't more powerful than either of those, so it's not OP for D&D! So the main question isn't "Is this ability too powerful", it's "How powerful is this monster."
Kobolds have Pack Tactics racially.
As a PC, they can take the Rogue class, and have both.
As an NPC, you could easily stat out a "kobold rogue" which would have both skills.
:)
Well, the advantage to double the chance of a crit is nice.
I must be misunderstanding the OP but pack tactics is not required. You can get sneak attack as long as there is another enemy within 5ft of your target and you don't have disadvantage on your attack. You don't also need to have advantage - though admittedly it is nice. Either one alone is enough. That is written into the description of sneak attack;
'You don’t need advantage on the attack roll if another enemy of the target is within 5 feet of it, that enemy isn’t incapacitated, and you don’t have disadvantage on the attack roll.'
It's negligible. A character with Sneak Attack gains advantage against any creature where there is an ally within 5 feet of it. Pack Tactics doesn't matter here.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Really? That's new! :O
That's incorrect; a character with Sneak Attack doesn't need advantage if they have an ally within 5 feet of the target in order to get Sneak Attack, but they aren't granted advantage. If you use the optional flanking rules, they can get advantage by flanking the target with an ally on the other side.
That said, from experience, I would never recommend using the optional flanking rule.
You're right, I misremembered and conflated the two. Point stands as if an ally is within 5 feet of the creature, they're eligible to get SA on a qualifying attack.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Yea all they're getting is the advantage because they would already have Sneak Attack - and if you are using the flanking rules then maybe it wouldn't even add Advantage because they might already have it.
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You realise that multiple people had already told you that earlier in the thread?