How far away is a flying creature when it's up in the air?
I'm a player and the DM had us fighting a flying creature that was 30ft away and 60ft up. One of my teammates cast a 30ft range spell which they say should hit because 3d distance rules (trigonometry) aren't used in 5e?
Are there any official rulings on it?
(I'm going to be playing an Aarakocra in another campaign so this question is purely selfish! :) )
The DM should give the point-to-point distance, so in this case, around 70 feet. To help clarify, should a fighter be able to throw a dagger at the monster?
The DM should give the point-to-point distance, so in this case, around 70 feet. To help clarify, should a fighter be able to throw a dagger at the monster?
If a spell has a range of 30' that is both horizontal and vertical. You can play either using actual ranges and calculate the hypoteneuse or you can simplify and just say 30' (6 squares) horizontal or vertical or both.
Yes this gives the spell more range on the diagonal than it does in either the vertical or horizontal directions but it is much simpler to calculate. However, D&D doesn't limit ranges to the horizontal plane even if it doesn't use trigonometry ... so a target that is 30' away horizontally and 60' up vertically is still at least 60' away and can't be hit by a spell with a 30' range.
Let's back this question up. Where does it say that DND 5E doesn't use Trigonometry? Secondly, the game assumes a pretty solid understanding of Geometry if you are going to use the Area of Effect rules.
Given that D&D uses a sphere, cube and cylinder as distinct types of spell effect areas, one can reasonably assume that traditional geometry & trigonometry math applies when calculating distance. It's also reasonable to assume that most of us don't want to spend time doing that kind of math in the middle of a fight. Ultimately, whatever shortcut rules the group uses is fine, as long as they agree on them ahead of time. If the DM is going to roughly estimate the actual distance, then they should probably make those estimates known before a player does something that the target might be out of range for. I suppose for an added challenge they could make the player roll an Intelligence check if the range is going to be iffy("Roll for math!!") and the character's Intelligence score isn't great.
At the end of the day, it's a game, not a simulation. Just try to pick a method that preserves the fun and that the whole group is okay with. :)
Trigonometry definitely does not work in DnD 5e. Just look at the basic way you calculate movement distance alone - diagonals cost no extra movement than straight movement. Your DM is right that you can hit a flying creature that is 30ft horizontal and 30ft vertical away with a 30ft range weapon.
Which is why I rule it differently and have ruled it both ways:
1) use the optional diagonal rules in the DMG. It would be 45ft to hit the flying target.
2) simpler method - vertical height, add the distances. The flying creature is 60ft away from ground attacks. Vice versa, shooting downwards doesn’t incur the same penalty, which makes high ground more effective. Ground creature is only 30ft away from the flyer’s attacks.
3) Combination of the two: calculate using optional diagonal rules on the ground, then add vertical height as a flat number on top of that. 75ft away if diagonally 30ft away from the ground.
Closest explanation in the books I know of is this:
Optional Rule: Diagonals
The Player’s Handbook presents a simple method for counting movement and measuring range on a grid: count every square as 5 feet, even if you’re moving diagonally. Though this is fast in play, it breaks the laws of geometry and is inaccurate over long distances. This optional rule provides more realism, but it requires more effort during combat.
When measuring range or moving diagonally on a grid, the first diagonal square counts as 5 feet, but the second diagonal square counts as 10 feet. This pattern of 5 feet and then 10 feet continues whenever you’re counting diagonally, even if you move horizontally or vertically between different bits of diagonal movement. For example, a character might move one square diagonally (5 feet), then three squares straight (15 feet), and then another square diagonally (10 feet) for a total movement of 30 feet.
Trigonometry definitely does not work in DnD 5e. Just look at the basic way you calculate movement distance alone - diagonals cost no extra movement than straight movement. Your DM is right that you can hit a flying creature that is 30ft horizontal and 30ft vertical away with a 30ft range weapon.
Which is why I rule it differently and have ruled it both ways:
1) use the optional diagonal rules in the DMG. It would be 45ft to hit the flying target.
2) simpler method - vertical height, add the distances. The flying creature is 60ft away from ground attacks. Vice versa, shooting downwards doesn’t incur the same penalty, which makes high ground more effective. Ground creature is only 30ft away from the flyer’s attacks.
3) Combination of the two: calculate using optional diagonal rules on the ground, then add vertical height as a flat number on top of that. 75ft away if diagonally 30ft away from the ground.
As far as I know, all you are saying is right if you are using a grid, but this is an optional rule. I don't use a grid because the game works perfectly fine without it and I'd been playing for more than 25 years before gaming on a square grid became mandatory. So whether we use a quickly drawn map or a tool like Roll20, you can perfectly compute actual distances without resorting to a grid and, for vertical distances, of course trigonometry applies, space is usually euclidian (although I can remember strange effects in previous editions, in particular with a spell call distance distortion which was quite fun to apply, as well as R'lyeh type effects :) )..
Touché - a non-grid open style would be interesting. Use string or lasers to determine distance then?
I use the Pathfinder distance option in Roll20 so it does all the math for me 🙂
Touché - a non-grid open style would be interesting. Use string or lasers to determine distance then?
Roll20 does it perfectly well if you don't add a grid to a map (although I agree that it also does it really well when you add a grid and configure the distance tool properly).
Otherwise, we usually wing it when using a battlemap, unless it's really critical and we use a string, which is in fact usually best when determining things like fireballs.
I use the Pathfinder distance option in Roll20 so it does all the math for me 🙂
That's fine until you go 3D. :)
But I must say that, despite all the things that I loved in 3(.5) and pathfinder, I still miss a bit of the absolute epicness that we could achieve with the first D&D and AD&D. 4E was a catastrophy, and 5E compressed the power curve to avoid the extremes. I can remember fights where we teleported on the backs of flying dragons in a huge void with floating fortresses in all directions, for example, now our thinking has been very much constrained by the grid-thinking. I'm trying, with my groups, to recapture the epicness through as much theater of the mind as we can, but it's strange how people want to think in 5-foot squares... :D
Yeah, I agree - the open world of Basic DnD / ADnD with little to no grid and even no minis was an interesting time. We weren’t restricted to directions or spaces really. The battles were mostly in the mind :)
What I do enjoy nowadays is finding very visually appealing battle maps, and using the line of sight dynamics of the VTT to really throw people for a loop - hiding around corners in the dark, when you can see the light approaching, creatures disappearing into the shadowy limits of your torchlight, etc. It makes the world very dark and mysterious that I haven’t really been able to put into words as much in previous editions.
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How far away is a flying creature when it's up in the air?
I'm a player and the DM had us fighting a flying creature that was 30ft away and 60ft up. One of my teammates cast a 30ft range spell which they say should hit because 3d distance rules (trigonometry) aren't used in 5e?
Are there any official rulings on it?
(I'm going to be playing an Aarakocra in another campaign so this question is purely selfish! :) )
The DM should give the point-to-point distance, so in this case, around 70 feet. To help clarify, should a fighter be able to throw a dagger at the monster?
Actually the hypotenuse is approximately 68.083.
If a spell has a range of 30' that is both horizontal and vertical. You can play either using actual ranges and calculate the hypoteneuse or you can simplify and just say 30' (6 squares) horizontal or vertical or both.
Yes this gives the spell more range on the diagonal than it does in either the vertical or horizontal directions but it is much simpler to calculate. However, D&D doesn't limit ranges to the horizontal plane even if it doesn't use trigonometry ... so a target that is 30' away horizontally and 60' up vertically is still at least 60' away and can't be hit by a spell with a 30' range.
Let's back this question up. Where does it say that DND 5E doesn't use Trigonometry? Secondly, the game assumes a pretty solid understanding of Geometry if you are going to use the Area of Effect rules.
Sick burn!
But, yeah...have to agree.
Given that D&D uses a sphere, cube and cylinder as distinct types of spell effect areas, one can reasonably assume that traditional geometry & trigonometry math applies when calculating distance. It's also reasonable to assume that most of us don't want to spend time doing that kind of math in the middle of a fight. Ultimately, whatever shortcut rules the group uses is fine, as long as they agree on them ahead of time. If the DM is going to roughly estimate the actual distance, then they should probably make those estimates known before a player does something that the target might be out of range for. I suppose for an added challenge they could make the player roll an Intelligence check if the range is going to be iffy("Roll for math!!") and the character's Intelligence score isn't great.
At the end of the day, it's a game, not a simulation. Just try to pick a method that preserves the fun and that the whole group is okay with. :)
Trigonometry definitely does not work in DnD 5e. Just look at the basic way you calculate movement distance alone - diagonals cost no extra movement than straight movement. Your DM is right that you can hit a flying creature that is 30ft horizontal and 30ft vertical away with a 30ft range weapon.
Which is why I rule it differently and have ruled it both ways:
1) use the optional diagonal rules in the DMG. It would be 45ft to hit the flying target.
2) simpler method - vertical height, add the distances. The flying creature is 60ft away from ground attacks. Vice versa, shooting downwards doesn’t incur the same penalty, which makes high ground more effective. Ground creature is only 30ft away from the flyer’s attacks.
3) Combination of the two: calculate using optional diagonal rules on the ground, then add vertical height as a flat number on top of that. 75ft away if diagonally 30ft away from the ground.
Closest explanation in the books I know of is this:
Optional Rule: Diagonals
The Player’s Handbook presents a simple method for counting movement and measuring range on a grid: count every square as 5 feet, even if you’re moving diagonally. Though this is fast in play, it breaks the laws of geometry and is inaccurate over long distances. This optional rule provides more realism, but it requires more effort during combat.
When measuring range or moving diagonally on a grid, the first diagonal square counts as 5 feet, but the second diagonal square counts as 10 feet. This pattern of 5 feet and then 10 feet continues whenever you’re counting diagonally, even if you move horizontally or vertically between different bits of diagonal movement. For example, a character might move one square diagonally (5 feet), then three squares straight (15 feet), and then another square diagonally (10 feet) for a total movement of 30 feet.
Touché - a non-grid open style would be interesting. Use string or lasers to determine distance then?
I use the Pathfinder distance option in Roll20 so it does all the math for me 🙂
No freeaking way does a 30 ft range spell hit someone that is 60 ft up.
Three main ways to do this:
Yeah, I agree - the open world of Basic DnD / ADnD with little to no grid and even no minis was an interesting time. We weren’t restricted to directions or spaces really. The battles were mostly in the mind :)
What I do enjoy nowadays is finding very visually appealing battle maps, and using the line of sight dynamics of the VTT to really throw people for a loop - hiding around corners in the dark, when you can see the light approaching, creatures disappearing into the shadowy limits of your torchlight, etc. It makes the world very dark and mysterious that I haven’t really been able to put into words as much in previous editions.