Picture a 5' wide hallway fight. Druid is 20' away from the front enemy and 25' away from another enemy, immediately behind the first.
If the druid uses Thorn Whip on enemy in the 2nd rank, can they pull that enemy *through* the front enemy rank? Are the enemies simply treating each other as difficult terrain at that point?
Picture a 5' wide hallway fight. Druid is 20' away from the front enemy and 25' away from another enemy, immediately behind the first.
If the druid uses Thorn Whip on enemy in the 2nd rank, can they pull that enemy *through* the front enemy rank? Are the enemies simply treating each other as difficult terrain at that point?
Difficult Terrain
Combat rarely takes place in bare rooms or on featureless plains. Boulder-strewn caverns, briar-choked forests, treacherous staircases — the setting of a typical fight contains difficult terrain.
Every foot of movement in difficult terrain costs 1 extra foot. This rule is true even if multiple things in a space count as difficult terrain.
Low furniture, rubble, undergrowth, steep stairs, snow, and shallow bogs are examples of difficult terrain. The space of another creature, whether hostile or not, also counts as difficult terrain.
Yes, difficult terrain. However, that may not matter depending on how you view forced movement. Some people believe difficult terrain only applies to a creature using their speed to move, and forced movement typically does not (with the exception of a few specific spells & abilities) force the target to use their speed on the movement.
I don't buy that. Difficult terrain is difficult terrain, and most abilities with movement riders like Thorn Whip specify that the forced movement is up to a discrete distance, so a 10 foot push/pull does not implicitly have to be a full 10 feet. If you're dragging the creature across something that is difficult terrain, I see no reason why your ability to pull them through it wouldn't be affected in turn.
In your example of pulling someone from behind another creature, it is difficult terrain, so you could only pull them a total of 5 feet. That would seem to mean the creature would be stuck in their ally's square (which you cannot do), but that's also not the only option. You can pull them on a diagonal, so if there's an unoccupied diagonal space adjacent to the creature(s), you can pull them there instead. If that space is not difficult terrain as well, then technically you can still pull them another square closer to you.
However, it is worth noting that you may not even be able to do any of this to begin with, depending on the layout of the field/creatures. At minimum, the creature you are targeting will have half cover, making it more difficult to hit them with the spell. If there is more than one creature or obstruction in that 1st rank, consider whether that constitutes three-quarter or even full cover. Creatures in full cover can't be targeted by spells or attacks directly, but can still be hit with AoEs.
[edit] Just re-read that you're in a 5' hallway... yeah, I'd probably rule that as total cover as there's no other route to the 2nd rank except directly through the 1st. Even if you don't count it as total cover, you aren't gonna move them anywhere.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
I don't buy that. Difficult terrain is difficult terrain, and most abilities with movement riders like Thorn Whip specify that the forced movement is up to a discrete distance, so a 10 foot push/pull does not implicitly have to be a full 10 feet. If you're dragging the creature across something that is difficult terrain, I see no reason why your ability to pull them through it wouldn't be affected in turn.
Pertinent quotation bolded for emphasis.
I'm inclined to believe that if a spell doesn't specify how the movement is achieved, then it's safer to interpret it in the most generous way possible, so that the spell operates exactly as written.
Thorn Whip doesn't specify dragging, so I imagine that it is bodily lifting them above/around the Difficult Terrain. Loose stones and brambles only matter if you are trying to avoid the consequences of reckless movement (Though swamp muck would actually force slower movement). For realism, there probably would be other complications to factor in, but for mechanical reasons, it's not worth it.
Forcing an opponent to move through another creature's space could easily have consequences, but I think that needs to be a DM call, rather than an actual limitation on the spell. (Like forcing one creature to collide with another.)
Separately, the rules seem to specify that a creature can't willingly end its turn in another creature's space, but doesn't rule out the possibility of being forced to share a space. I don't know if there are any official rules for that scenario, but applying "Squeezing" on both affected creatures seems like it would be appropriate.
I always read the movement penalty of difficult terrain to be due to trying to avoid things like tripping/ getting caught by brambles ect. So i would read forced movement to ignore difficult terrain in most cases.
That said I agree wtih Sigred, chances are in this situation targeting through the first opponent probably makes this a moot point.
Spells also do not do what they do not say they do.
You create a long, vine-like whip covered in thorns that lashes out at your command toward a creature in range. Make a melee spell attack against the target. If the attack hits, the creature takes 1d6 piercing damage, and if the creature is Large or smaller, you pull the creature up to 10 feet closer to you.
The spell's damage increases by 1d6 when you reach 5th level (2d6), 11th level (3d6), and 17th level (4d6).
"Pull" is fairly specific terminology. The spell does not say it lifts a creature, nor that it moves them around obstructions. It pulls the target toward the caster.
The bit about unwilling movement is interesting, and there is frustratingly no information on what happens when a creature is unwillingly moved into another creature's space. That leads me to believe the target could be dumped in their ally's space, but the instant one of them gets a turn they must immediately move out of that space--you can't willingly stop in another creature's space during any portion of your turn.
Yet what I end up coming back to is the issue of cover. In the OP's situation, it seems like there's no feasible way for the caster to get an unobstructed angle to attack the target. No matter which corner of the caster's square you use to draw your line-of-effect, that ally in front of them is in the way. With walls also on each side, I'd probably say that constitutes full cover, rending the difficult terrain issue moot.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Sure, there is plenty of ambiguity. If the Thorn Whip pulls the target horizontally from center body mass, their feet may bounce along the ground, but that still bypasses the problem of traditional difficult terrain, etc. Loose gravel would actually make dragging easier. Thorn whip could technically be used to pull a creature across a 5ft pit.
As for the issue of cover, I would want to see this on a grid, but I don't know why you would give a character "Full Cover", when the case of being behind another creature is specifically noted as "Half-Cover", whether or not there are walls on either side should be irrelevant, unless the target is also behind a wall.
A humanoid "occupies" a 5ft space, but does not fill it bodily. Standing normally, an average human would block less than half of a 5ft window, and can't physically cover both sides of their square at the same time. If the enemy formation included an actual shield wall, then that certainly changes things, but would be atypical.
As for the issue of cover, I would want to see this on a grid, but I don't know why you would give a character "Full Cover", when the case of being behind another creature is specifically noted as "Half-Cover", whether or not there are walls on either side should be irrelevant, unless the target is also behind a wall.
Yes, and that's why I earlier mentioned that it's at least half-cover. Unfortunately, 5e does not provide perfectly clear, delineated manner that is measurable. It's a lot more open-ended, and oriented toward theatre of the mind. "Blocks at least half of its body" & "three-quarters of its body" is not discretely measurable when on a grid, and goes to your point about a creature not occupying all of the square at all times. Particularly when we consider the disconnect between creature height (both narratively, and mechanically), the grid, and how much is "covered".
In this specific thought-experiment, everyone is effectively lined up single-file in this hallway. As both player and DM, I would find it reasonable if someone said that the creatures were moving (within their squares) in such a way as to keep the rear line obscured. That's sorta the point of formation tactics anyway.
This next bit might not be entirely applicable to 5e (due to aforementioned lack of perfect clarity, yet I feel like I've seen it at least alluded to in one of the core books... probably XGtE), but it informs my thought-process on adjudicating this stuff as a DM, as it's been part of basically every system since time immemorial--determining line of sight. When using a grid, pick a corner (or whatever you're using as the origin point) of the square you occupy, and trace straight lines from that point to each corner of the square you intend to target. If any of those lines has an unobstructed path, then you have line of sight, and the target is not in full cover. It's also a quick way of determining whether something's half or three-quarters covered--two obstructed lines is half cover, and 3 obstructed lines is three-quarters cover.
When you're stacked in a single-file column like the OP's example, there are no unobstructed lines to the target in the rear, no matter what area of your own square you measure from. There's nowhere to sidestep to get a better angle. The creature in front is always in the way.
[edit] Just saw your post with the picture, and that's exactly what I'm getting at. The creature's position within a square is irrelevant when using grids. There's no direct line from your square, to the rear square, that doesn't intersect with the square of the creature in the 1st rank.
Also on a personal note... great conversations today. Lots of food for thought!
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Hmmm... The OP uses the term "rank", but isn't specifying any actual deliberate formation.
In the case of tactical formations, I'd be happy ruling in the favor of the defenders. Under any other circumstance, thugs, monsters, creatures in general are never so well coordinated. Hostile creatures (Especially those with low intelligence) are probably trying to get as clean a shot at you as you are of them. Dynamic versus static cover presents different opportunities, so I'd probably be willing to give a medium creature 3/4 cover if it is actively hiding behind a same sized dynamic target. However, a dynamic target is always going to leave an opening of some kind simply because it can't defend as well as it threatens.
That's my thought on targeting. I was going to say more about the movement itself, but I found something that I feel is more relevant:
You can move through a nonhostile creature's space. In contrast, you can move through a hostile creature's space only if the creature is at least two sizes larger or smaller than you.
RAI, I think the implication is that moving through the space of a same sized creature who would choose to stop you simply isn't possible. It's a bit of a gray area, but I would say that Rank 1 is hostile to the unintentional movement of Rank 2, therefore it isn't permitted by RAW.
However, there are also the Optional Combat Actions in the DMG, Overrun and Tumble, which allow for strength and dexterity-based options for moving through hostile space.
If Overrun is explicitly permitted in a given game, I would be tempted to allow the caster to attempt an opposed Strength(Athletics) vs Spellcasting check to attempt to move Rank 2 past Rank 1. However, it would probably need to be at disadvantage, if allowed at all, due to the target also resisting.
I would just move both enemies 5 feet closer unless the one in front was larger. In that case, nobody would move.
I'd do it simply because the player would think it was cool. You grab the enemy with your thorn whip, he smacks into the guy in front of him and both of them are a little closer. Much more dynamic and fun than all the previous blah blah.
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"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
How much cover a creature provides another creature also depends on the size of the creatures involved. We should not assume that both are the same size. If the creature closer to the Thorn Whip-ping PC is a smaller size than the one in back, that would mean less cover, maybe even no cover if the size difference is significant enough. A pixie would not provide meaningful cover to an Ogre, for instance.
Whether a creature can be forced to occupy the same space of another creature is the DM's call. These are uncommon edge cases not well covered by the rules.
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Picture a 5' wide hallway fight. Druid is 20' away from the front enemy and 25' away from another enemy, immediately behind the first.
If the druid uses Thorn Whip on enemy in the 2nd rank, can they pull that enemy *through* the front enemy rank? Are the enemies simply treating each other as difficult terrain at that point?
Yes, difficult terrain. However, that may not matter depending on how you view forced movement. Some people believe difficult terrain only applies to a creature using their speed to move, and forced movement typically does not (with the exception of a few specific spells & abilities) force the target to use their speed on the movement.
I don't buy that. Difficult terrain is difficult terrain, and most abilities with movement riders like Thorn Whip specify that the forced movement is up to a discrete distance, so a 10 foot push/pull does not implicitly have to be a full 10 feet. If you're dragging the creature across something that is difficult terrain, I see no reason why your ability to pull them through it wouldn't be affected in turn.
In your example of pulling someone from behind another creature, it is difficult terrain, so you could only pull them a total of 5 feet. That would seem to mean the creature would be stuck in their ally's square (which you cannot do), but that's also not the only option. You can pull them on a diagonal, so if there's an unoccupied diagonal space adjacent to the creature(s), you can pull them there instead. If that space is not difficult terrain as well, then technically you can still pull them another square closer to you.
However, it is worth noting that you may not even be able to do any of this to begin with, depending on the layout of the field/creatures. At minimum, the creature you are targeting will have half cover, making it more difficult to hit them with the spell. If there is more than one creature or obstruction in that 1st rank, consider whether that constitutes three-quarter or even full cover. Creatures in full cover can't be targeted by spells or attacks directly, but can still be hit with AoEs.
[edit] Just re-read that you're in a 5' hallway... yeah, I'd probably rule that as total cover as there's no other route to the 2nd rank except directly through the 1st. Even if you don't count it as total cover, you aren't gonna move them anywhere.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Pertinent quotation bolded for emphasis.
I'm inclined to believe that if a spell doesn't specify how the movement is achieved, then it's safer to interpret it in the most generous way possible, so that the spell operates exactly as written.
Thorn Whip doesn't specify dragging, so I imagine that it is bodily lifting them above/around the Difficult Terrain. Loose stones and brambles only matter if you are trying to avoid the consequences of reckless movement (Though swamp muck would actually force slower movement). For realism, there probably would be other complications to factor in, but for mechanical reasons, it's not worth it.
Forcing an opponent to move through another creature's space could easily have consequences, but I think that needs to be a DM call, rather than an actual limitation on the spell. (Like forcing one creature to collide with another.)
Separately, the rules seem to specify that a creature can't willingly end its turn in another creature's space, but doesn't rule out the possibility of being forced to share a space. I don't know if there are any official rules for that scenario, but applying "Squeezing" on both affected creatures seems like it would be appropriate.
I always read the movement penalty of difficult terrain to be due to trying to avoid things like tripping/ getting caught by brambles ect. So i would read forced movement to ignore difficult terrain in most cases.
That said I agree wtih Sigred, chances are in this situation targeting through the first opponent probably makes this a moot point.
Spells also do not do what they do not say they do.
"Pull" is fairly specific terminology. The spell does not say it lifts a creature, nor that it moves them around obstructions. It pulls the target toward the caster.
The bit about unwilling movement is interesting, and there is frustratingly no information on what happens when a creature is unwillingly moved into another creature's space. That leads me to believe the target could be dumped in their ally's space, but the instant one of them gets a turn they must immediately move out of that space--you can't willingly stop in another creature's space during any portion of your turn.
Yet what I end up coming back to is the issue of cover. In the OP's situation, it seems like there's no feasible way for the caster to get an unobstructed angle to attack the target. No matter which corner of the caster's square you use to draw your line-of-effect, that ally in front of them is in the way. With walls also on each side, I'd probably say that constitutes full cover, rending the difficult terrain issue moot.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Sure, there is plenty of ambiguity. If the Thorn Whip pulls the target horizontally from center body mass, their feet may bounce along the ground, but that still bypasses the problem of traditional difficult terrain, etc. Loose gravel would actually make dragging easier. Thorn whip could technically be used to pull a creature across a 5ft pit.
As for the issue of cover, I would want to see this on a grid, but I don't know why you would give a character "Full Cover", when the case of being behind another creature is specifically noted as "Half-Cover", whether or not there are walls on either side should be irrelevant, unless the target is also behind a wall.
A humanoid "occupies" a 5ft space, but does not fill it bodily. Standing normally, an average human would block less than half of a 5ft window, and can't physically cover both sides of their square at the same time. If the enemy formation included an actual shield wall, then that certainly changes things, but would be atypical.
Just dropping in a visual reference.
Case A: "Center Square" arrangement
Case B: "Extreme" arrangement
Yes, and that's why I earlier mentioned that it's at least half-cover. Unfortunately, 5e does not provide perfectly clear, delineated manner that is measurable. It's a lot more open-ended, and oriented toward theatre of the mind. "Blocks at least half of its body" & "three-quarters of its body" is not discretely measurable when on a grid, and goes to your point about a creature not occupying all of the square at all times. Particularly when we consider the disconnect between creature height (both narratively, and mechanically), the grid, and how much is "covered".
In this specific thought-experiment, everyone is effectively lined up single-file in this hallway. As both player and DM, I would find it reasonable if someone said that the creatures were moving (within their squares) in such a way as to keep the rear line obscured. That's sorta the point of formation tactics anyway.
This next bit might not be entirely applicable to 5e (due to aforementioned lack of perfect clarity, yet I feel like I've seen it at least alluded to in one of the core books... probably XGtE), but it informs my thought-process on adjudicating this stuff as a DM, as it's been part of basically every system since time immemorial--determining line of sight. When using a grid, pick a corner (or whatever you're using as the origin point) of the square you occupy, and trace straight lines from that point to each corner of the square you intend to target. If any of those lines has an unobstructed path, then you have line of sight, and the target is not in full cover. It's also a quick way of determining whether something's half or three-quarters covered--two obstructed lines is half cover, and 3 obstructed lines is three-quarters cover.
When you're stacked in a single-file column like the OP's example, there are no unobstructed lines to the target in the rear, no matter what area of your own square you measure from. There's nowhere to sidestep to get a better angle. The creature in front is always in the way.
[edit] Just saw your post with the picture, and that's exactly what I'm getting at. The creature's position within a square is irrelevant when using grids. There's no direct line from your square, to the rear square, that doesn't intersect with the square of the creature in the 1st rank.
Also on a personal note... great conversations today. Lots of food for thought!
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Hmmm... The OP uses the term "rank", but isn't specifying any actual deliberate formation.
In the case of tactical formations, I'd be happy ruling in the favor of the defenders. Under any other circumstance, thugs, monsters, creatures in general are never so well coordinated. Hostile creatures (Especially those with low intelligence) are probably trying to get as clean a shot at you as you are of them. Dynamic versus static cover presents different opportunities, so I'd probably be willing to give a medium creature 3/4 cover if it is actively hiding behind a same sized dynamic target. However, a dynamic target is always going to leave an opening of some kind simply because it can't defend as well as it threatens.
That's my thought on targeting. I was going to say more about the movement itself, but I found something that I feel is more relevant:
RAI, I think the implication is that moving through the space of a same sized creature who would choose to stop you simply isn't possible. It's a bit of a gray area, but I would say that Rank 1 is hostile to the unintentional movement of Rank 2, therefore it isn't permitted by RAW.
However, there are also the Optional Combat Actions in the DMG, Overrun and Tumble, which allow for strength and dexterity-based options for moving through hostile space.
If Overrun is explicitly permitted in a given game, I would be tempted to allow the caster to attempt an opposed Strength(Athletics) vs Spellcasting check to attempt to move Rank 2 past Rank 1. However, it would probably need to be at disadvantage, if allowed at all, due to the target also resisting.
I would just move both enemies 5 feet closer unless the one in front was larger. In that case, nobody would move.
I'd do it simply because the player would think it was cool. You grab the enemy with your thorn whip, he smacks into the guy in front of him and both of them are a little closer. Much more dynamic and fun than all the previous blah blah.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
How much cover a creature provides another creature also depends on the size of the creatures involved. We should not assume that both are the same size. If the creature closer to the Thorn Whip-ping PC is a smaller size than the one in back, that would mean less cover, maybe even no cover if the size difference is significant enough. A pixie would not provide meaningful cover to an Ogre, for instance.
Whether a creature can be forced to occupy the same space of another creature is the DM's call. These are uncommon edge cases not well covered by the rules.