lets say we have two characters of equal level, lets say 6th level for the sake of simplicity, both with the exact same abillity scores. Both are proficient with the performance skill and the lyre instrument, however one is a bard or rouge who has gained expertise in the performance skill, wheras the other is an artificer who has expertise with the lyre (or both took the recent practiced expert UA feat but one choose an musical instument to be an expert in performance). If i gave both of these theoretical characters an lyre and asked them to preform for me, how would the two performances differ? From an mechanical perspective both would in this situation add twice their proficiency bonus (+6) plus the appropriate ability score (probably charisma in this case) to their skill check, and if using the tool rules from xanatar's guide to everything both would gain advantage on their check due to having both the right skill and tool proficiency, the check, DC and everything is the same, so from an in-universe perspective what is the difference?
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
The Bard / Rogue with performance expertise would be the most entertaining. That may manifest in their presentation, movements, they may combine the instrument playing with dance or singing, and in general they'd have a much stronger "stage presence". An example of this would be any stage performer, ie Lindsey Stirling, Tina Guo, two cellos etc. (in my personal taste anyways XD)
The Artificer would still be competent at performing, but their key talent would be in their technical mastery of the instrument. They'd be able to play anything with ease and achieve a sound / style very unique to them which would be very recognisable. They'd also have a deep technical understanding sufficient to emulate and dissect another artists work with the instrument. Think vocal coaches, sound engineers, [whatever the equivalent of those is for specific instruments], etc.
Also I wanna say this is just my opinion & isn't an official rule, but as you say this is less of a mechanical question and more how the abilities manifest, which is inevitably going to be up to personal interpretation.
That’s a question for the players, not the forums. They’re the ones performing; it’s up to them to characterize the performance.
On another note, if what they’re doing is playing the lyre, I wouldn’t let Performance have anything to do with it, and the ability check probably wouldn’t be Charisma.
I think that's a cool question, and gets into the details of what exactly is meant by "proficiency" or "expertise" in the different skills!
The differentiator, I think, is that the "performance" skills is pretty general, might apply to "performance" in a lot of different ways and instruments. So I'd probably interpret that as being familiar with performance in general - being able to read the audience, being comfortable on stage dealing with either cheering or boos or indifference, stuff like that. Whereas expertise in a particular instrument is being really good at that specific instrument.
So someone with expertise in the lyre (and proficiency in performance) would probably be able to do more technically challenging and, without other context, better-sounding music, while the person with expertise in performance (and proficiency in the lyre) would probably have simpler music but that that's more responsive to the audience, maybe throws in some dancing or singing or audience-participation-clapping or something. (And since the bonuses add up to the same thing, in-universe both are equally effective at entertaining or captivating the audience.)
The Bard / Rogue with performance expertise would be the most entertaining. That may manifest in their presentation, movements, they may combine the instrument playing with dance or singing, and in general they'd have a much stronger "stage presence". An example of this would be any stage performer, ie Lindsey Stirling, Tina Guo, two cellos etc. (in my personal taste anyways XD)
The Artificer would still be competent at performing, but their key talent would be in their technical mastery of the instrument. They'd be able to play anything with ease and achieve a sound / style very unique to them which would be very recognisable. They'd also have a deep technical understanding sufficient to emulate and dissect another artists work with the instrument. Think vocal coaches, sound engineers, [whatever the equivalent of those is for specific instruments], etc.
Also I wanna say this is just my opinion & isn't an official rule, but as you say this is less of a mechanical question and more how the abilities manifest, which is inevitably going to be up to personal interpretation.
Proficiency in a tool allows you to use that tool (lyre) with proficiency without having the performance skill. Mechanically, there is no real additional effect. You could rule that although a studio musician [proficiency lyre] is very technical, they do not have the capacity to affect a crowd like David Bowie on stage as Ziggy Stardust [proficiency performance].
A GM can flavor tools anyway they see fit. I have had GMs reduce the DC, use it as a RP hook, let the player roll with advantage, or just allow a player to add an additional proficiency on top of their current one setting up for triple proficiency. Most tool skills are not synergistic with a base skills for a lot of things. Instruments are one of the exceptions, as are knowledge skills.
That is my experience if it helps.
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IMHO, Earthdawn is still the best fantasy realm, Shadowrun is the best Sci-Fi realm, and Dark Sun is the best D&D realm.
The Bard / Rogue with performance expertise would be the most entertaining. That may manifest in their presentation, movements, they may combine the instrument playing with dance or singing, and in general they'd have a much stronger "stage presence". An example of this would be any stage performer, ie Lindsey Stirling, Tina Guo, two cellos etc. (in my personal taste anyways XD)
Off topic of the thread, but if you like those performers, you should probably check out the Harp Twins.
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lets say we have two characters of equal level, lets say 6th level for the sake of simplicity, both with the exact same abillity scores. Both are proficient with the performance skill and the lyre instrument, however one is a bard or rouge who has gained expertise in the performance skill, wheras the other is an artificer who has expertise with the lyre (or both took the recent practiced expert UA feat but one choose an musical instument to be an expert in performance).
If i gave both of these theoretical characters an lyre and asked them to preform for me, how would the two performances differ? From an mechanical perspective both would in this situation add twice their proficiency bonus (+6) plus the appropriate ability score (probably charisma in this case) to their skill check, and if using the tool rules from xanatar's guide to everything both would gain advantage on their check due to having both the right skill and tool proficiency, the check, DC and everything is the same, so from an in-universe perspective what is the difference?
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
The Bard / Rogue with performance expertise would be the most entertaining. That may manifest in their presentation, movements, they may combine the instrument playing with dance or singing, and in general they'd have a much stronger "stage presence". An example of this would be any stage performer, ie Lindsey Stirling, Tina Guo, two cellos etc. (in my personal taste anyways XD)
The Artificer would still be competent at performing, but their key talent would be in their technical mastery of the instrument. They'd be able to play anything with ease and achieve a sound / style very unique to them which would be very recognisable. They'd also have a deep technical understanding sufficient to emulate and dissect another artists work with the instrument. Think vocal coaches, sound engineers, [whatever the equivalent of those is for specific instruments], etc.
Also I wanna say this is just my opinion & isn't an official rule, but as you say this is less of a mechanical question and more how the abilities manifest, which is inevitably going to be up to personal interpretation.
That’s a question for the players, not the forums. They’re the ones performing; it’s up to them to characterize the performance.
On another note, if what they’re doing is playing the lyre, I wouldn’t let Performance have anything to do with it, and the ability check probably wouldn’t be Charisma.
I think that's a cool question, and gets into the details of what exactly is meant by "proficiency" or "expertise" in the different skills!
The differentiator, I think, is that the "performance" skills is pretty general, might apply to "performance" in a lot of different ways and instruments. So I'd probably interpret that as being familiar with performance in general - being able to read the audience, being comfortable on stage dealing with either cheering or boos or indifference, stuff like that. Whereas expertise in a particular instrument is being really good at that specific instrument.
So someone with expertise in the lyre (and proficiency in performance) would probably be able to do more technically challenging and, without other context, better-sounding music, while the person with expertise in performance (and proficiency in the lyre) would probably have simpler music but that that's more responsive to the audience, maybe throws in some dancing or singing or audience-participation-clapping or something. (And since the bonuses add up to the same thing, in-universe both are equally effective at entertaining or captivating the audience.)
Yep! This 100%.
Performance = Lindsay Sterling
Lyre = Hilary Hahn
Proficiency in a tool allows you to use that tool (lyre) with proficiency without having the performance skill. Mechanically, there is no real additional effect. You could rule that although a studio musician [proficiency lyre] is very technical, they do not have the capacity to affect a crowd like David Bowie on stage as Ziggy Stardust [proficiency performance].
A GM can flavor tools anyway they see fit. I have had GMs reduce the DC, use it as a RP hook, let the player roll with advantage, or just allow a player to add an additional proficiency on top of their current one setting up for triple proficiency. Most tool skills are not synergistic with a base skills for a lot of things. Instruments are one of the exceptions, as are knowledge skills.
That is my experience if it helps.
IMHO, Earthdawn is still the best fantasy realm, Shadowrun is the best Sci-Fi realm, and Dark Sun is the best D&D realm.
Off topic of the thread, but if you like those performers, you should probably check out the Harp Twins.