I have a 6th level character, 3 levels in Fighter (Eldritch Knight) and 3 levels in Wizard. I have a Long Sword, and a Staff of Cantrip Empowerment. For my feat I took Dual Wielder.
I'm trying to determine if I can cast Booming Blade as a cantrip, use the Long Sword as the weapon, and then as a bonus action, attack with the Staff.
If so, upon hits, would damage be as follows?
Long Sword: 1d8 + 6 (normal) plus 1d8 + 3 (Booming Blade and the extra 3 from Staff empowerment proficiency bonus), then if the target moves another 2d8 + 3
Staff: 1d6 + 6 (normal), and nothing from the Booming Blade because it only targets one weapon
Am I calculating this correctly? For some reason I was thinking that because I cast a spell and was making a melee attack with the Long Sword that I might not be able to attack with the staff, but I think I'm okay with all this.
One last part of this. If/when the fighter side of me gets to 5th level I'll pick up the extra Attack thing. Will that allow me to repeat the above, or, will some of that be negated?
Thanks in advance for any clarification on all of this. Would like to get it straight before I try and present it to the DM! :-)
Two-weapon fighting (and Extra Attack) requires taking the Attack action. Casting a spell uses the Cast A Spell action. These two things are normally mutually exclusive.
6th level wizards with the Bladesinging tradition get a unique variation of Extra Attack that lets them replace one attack with a cantrip, so they're able to take the Attack action with one weapon, meet the two-weapon fighting requirements, and still cast Booming Blade.
7th level Eldritch Knights can make one weapon attack as a bonus action if they use their action on casting a cantrip. This isn't the same as two-weapon fighting but it'd still let you cast Booming Blade with one weapon and make a bonus attack with the other.
So what you're saying is that at my level, I can either cast Booming Blade and do the single attack with the long sword, or, I can use the feat and attack with both the long sword and the staff, but without the added Booming Blade. True?
So what you're saying is that at my level, I can either cast Booming Blade and do the single attack with the long sword, or, I can use the feat and attack with both the long sword and the staff, but without the added Booming Blade. True?
Yes, the cast a spell action (which allows you one melee attack) or use an attack action (one attack + two-weapon fighting bonus action).
Okay, thank you. Sounds like what I should do is go with the cast a spell action, and then choose a different feat since there'll never be a reason to use dual wielding. I'm thinking sentinel would be a good feat.
Depends on what your goals are, but if you're already building your character around Booming Blade you might be better of with War Caster so you can use it in place of an opportunity attack.
Unfortunately, that will not work any longer. Booming Blade now has a target of SELF instead of targeting the creature. Brand new. Kinda' neuters War Caster/Booming Blade combo.
Unfortunately, that will not work any longer. Booming Blade now has a target of SELF instead of targeting the creature. Brand new. Kinda' neuters War Caster/Booming Blade combo.
It doesn’t have a target of self, it has a range of Self (5-foot radius). It still only targets one creature: the creature you attack.
Unfortunately, that will not work any longer. Booming Blade now has a target of SELF instead of targeting the creature. Brand new. Kinda' neuters War Caster/Booming Blade combo.
It doesn’t have a target of self, it has a range of Self (5-foot radius). It still only targets one creature: the creature you attack.
I've been over this before in another thread. That is not how the range or targeting rules in the PHB describe. A range of self means a target of self, whether as the target of the effect or the origin of the area of effect, you are the target. The enemy you make a melee attack against receives the spell's effect, but is not the spell's target. Booming blade works like Thunderous smite now (except instantaneous).
Unfortunately, that will not work any longer. Booming Blade now has a target of SELF instead of targeting the creature. Brand new. Kinda' neuters War Caster/Booming Blade combo.
It doesn’t have a target of self, it has a range of Self (5-foot radius). It still only targets one creature: the creature you attack.
I've been over this before in another thread. That is not how the range or targeting rules in the PHB describe. A range of self means a target of self, whether as the target of the effect or the origin of the area of effect, you are the target. The enemy you make a melee attack against receives the spell's effect, but is not the spell's target. Booming blade works like Thunderous smite now (except instantaneous).
Yes, a range of "Self" means a target of self, but "Self" is not the same thing as "Self (5-foot radius)." Don't conflate them. The Player's Handbook doesn't actually say anything at all about what to do with a range of Self (5-foot radius), but the closest is what it says about AoE cones and lines: "Spells that create cones or lines of effect that originate from you also have a range of self, indicating that the origin point of the spell's effect must be you (see “Areas of Effect” later in the this chapter)." You'll note that none of that suggests that the caster is a target of the spell. Crawford has a tweet about this as well, but given his tweeting habits, the aforementioned line from the PHB is the closest we'll get
Right. Burning Hands doesn't target the caster so why would Booming Blade? A range of "Self (Area)" just means the caster is the spell's point of origin. It's basically a range of 0.
They should really do a PHB errata to make that more clear. RAI Self (5 ft) & Self (non Cone/Line AoE) spells are supposed to fall under the same range as Self (Cone/Line), but RAW it says nothing about it cause I guess it's supposed to be implied? Yeah that's weird.
Edit: PHB not PBH, sometimes I type too fast for my own good.
And the point of origin is the target according to the rules. You can't use AOEs with war caster either.
I realize this may not have been what they meant when they changed the range, but this is what the rules say about the range they created.
Can you cite where it says the point of origin is the/a target? I quoted the rules text that made no mention of it. If it's someplace else, I'd like to know.
Okay, thank you. Sounds like what I should do is go with the cast a spell action, and then choose a different feat since there'll never be a reason to use dual wielding. I'm thinking sentinel would be a good feat.
At Bladesinger 6, you can replace one of your attacks with a cantrip, so you could cantrip, sword, and the sword attack will activate the bonus action for staff. It's not really an optimal means of combat, but you can do it.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
And the point of origin is the target according to the rules. You can't use AOEs with war caster either.
I realize this may not have been what they meant when they changed the range, but this is what the rules say about the range they created.
Saga is correct, and this has been explained recently by JC. You /can/ use BB/GFB with warcaster.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
And the point of origin is the target according to the rules.
The point of origin for an area of effect is a target (not the target) if you're asked to choose one. The rules tell you this, and it follows naturally from the dictionary definition of "target".
Targets
A typical spell requires you to pick one or more targets to be affected by the spell's magic. A spell's description tells you whether the spell targets creatures, objects, or a point of origin for an area of effect (described below).
You never have to choose the point of origin for spells with a range of "Self (area)" because it's always you. A range of "Self" has two different meanings in the rule and the one that's relevant here does not necessarily imply targeting yourself.
Most spells have ranges expressed in feet. Some spells can target only a creature (including you) that you touch. Other spells, such as the shield spell, affect only you. These spells have a range of self.
Spells that create cones or lines of effect that originate from you also have a range of self, indicating that the origin point of the spell's effect must be you (see “Areas of Effect” later in the this chapter).
So going back to Burning Hands, you don't have to choose a point of origin because it's always you, and in normal usage you're neither affected by it nor included in the area ("A cone's point of origin is not included in the cone's area of effect, unless you decide otherwise.") So by what stretch of the imagination is the caster a target?
You can't use AOEs with war caster either.
Right, but that's true regardless of what the spell's range is. Whether it's "Self" or not doesn't factor into that. The issue is the spell targeting an area.
Booming Blade and Green-Flame Blade don't work like that despite the devs abusing the "Self" notation for them. Only one creature of your choosing in the 5 foot radius centered on you is ever going to suffer the spell's effects (and the issue of GFB's target being optional has now been clarified in the errata.)
And the point of origin is the target according to the rules. You can't use AOEs with war caster either.
I realize this may not have been what they meant when they changed the range, but this is what the rules say about the range they created.
Can you cite where it says the point of origin is the/a target? I quoted the rules text that made no mention of it. If it's someplace else, I'd like to know.
Targets
A typical spell requires you to pick one or more targets to be affected by the spell's magic. A spell's description tells you whether the spell targets creatures, objects, or a point of origin for an area of effect (described below).
[Snip]
Targeting Yourself
If a spell targets a creature of your choice, you can choose yourself, unless the creature must be hostile or specifically a creature other than you. If you are in the area of effect of a spell you cast, you can target yourself.
When a hostile creature's movement provokes an opportunity attack from you, you can use your reaction to cast a spell at the creature, rather than making an opportunity attack. The spell must have a casting time of 1 action and must target only that creature.
The rules are pretty clear that you can't use war caster to cast any spells with a range of self regardless of additional context because a spell with a range of self either can or does target yourself and not only the enemy creature.
Additional rules for this new and unique range is required.
Careful there. Those rules are not as clear as you think, for both accounts. Let's look over those quotes.
"If you are in the area of effect of a spell you cast, you can target yourself."
You can be the target, not is the target. In this context, this means you can attack yourself in the face with Booming Blade. Which would make it so you can't use war-caster, not because of anything you said, but because you can't AoO yourself. However, we aren't making a build for self-damage, so this doesn't matter.
"When a hostile creature's movement provokes an opportunity attack from you, you can use your reaction to cast a spell at the creature, rather than making an opportunity attack. The spell must have a casting time of 1 action and must target only that creature." Important bits of info.
Okay let's clear this up a bit. What is the target for a Self spell?
Most spells have ranges expressed in feet. Some spells can target only a creature (including you) that you touch. Other spells, such as the shield spell, affect only you. These spells have a range of self.
Spells that create cones or lines of effect that originate from you also have a range of self, indicating that the origin point of the spell's effect must be you (see “Areas of Effect” later in the this chapter).
So this says, that if a spell has a range of Self, then it either means you are the target or the origin point (note you can't be both unless your attacking yourself). This is actually a weird case because technically Booming Blade does not target you (because the spell states the target is whoever takes damage), but at the same time Booming Blade isn't a cone or line of effect.
RAI it's fairly obvious that "Spells that create cones or lines of effect that originate from you also have a range of self" is supposed to be something like "Spells that create effects that originate from you also have a range of self". This is seen in spells like Thunderwave, the altered Lightning Lure, and there are more examples of Self(AoO) that aren't Self(Cone/Line).
Edit: Oh, disclaimer all emphasis is mine. You probably figured that out yourself.
Altered the text for minor grammar and stuff. I still stand by what i said earlier that the PHB needs a errata to make this more obvious.
There are also no rules for spells to have a point of origin without a defined area (ie line, cone, sphere). So technically these spells fully target self and a second creature per the RAW in PHB.
So the spellcasting rules in PHB need errata'd to include these new range types. I know what the RAI wanted it to mean, but they did not change the rules to properly reflect that. Thus these spells target you per the rules of the PHB.
I have a 6th level character, 3 levels in Fighter (Eldritch Knight) and 3 levels in Wizard. I have a Long Sword, and a Staff of Cantrip Empowerment. For my feat I took Dual Wielder.
I'm trying to determine if I can cast Booming Blade as a cantrip, use the Long Sword as the weapon, and then as a bonus action, attack with the Staff.
If so, upon hits, would damage be as follows?
Long Sword: 1d8 + 6 (normal) plus 1d8 + 3 (Booming Blade and the extra 3 from Staff empowerment proficiency bonus), then if the target moves another 2d8 + 3
Staff: 1d6 + 6 (normal), and nothing from the Booming Blade because it only targets one weapon
Am I calculating this correctly? For some reason I was thinking that because I cast a spell and was making a melee attack with the Long Sword that I might not be able to attack with the staff, but I think I'm okay with all this.
One last part of this. If/when the fighter side of me gets to 5th level I'll pick up the extra Attack thing. Will that allow me to repeat the above, or, will some of that be negated?
Thanks in advance for any clarification on all of this. Would like to get it straight before I try and present it to the DM! :-)
Two-weapon fighting (and Extra Attack) requires taking the Attack action. Casting a spell uses the Cast A Spell action. These two things are normally mutually exclusive.
6th level wizards with the Bladesinging tradition get a unique variation of Extra Attack that lets them replace one attack with a cantrip, so they're able to take the Attack action with one weapon, meet the two-weapon fighting requirements, and still cast Booming Blade.
7th level Eldritch Knights can make one weapon attack as a bonus action if they use their action on casting a cantrip. This isn't the same as two-weapon fighting but it'd still let you cast Booming Blade with one weapon and make a bonus attack with the other.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
So what you're saying is that at my level, I can either cast Booming Blade and do the single attack with the long sword, or, I can use the feat and attack with both the long sword and the staff, but without the added Booming Blade. True?
Yes, the cast a spell action (which allows you one melee attack) or use an attack action (one attack + two-weapon fighting bonus action).
Okay, thank you. Sounds like what I should do is go with the cast a spell action, and then choose a different feat since there'll never be a reason to use dual wielding. I'm thinking sentinel would be a good feat.
Depends on what your goals are, but if you're already building your character around Booming Blade you might be better of with War Caster so you can use it in place of an opportunity attack.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
Unfortunately, that will not work any longer. Booming Blade now has a target of SELF instead of targeting the creature. Brand new. Kinda' neuters War Caster/Booming Blade combo.
It doesn’t have a target of self, it has a range of Self (5-foot radius). It still only targets one creature: the creature you attack.
I've been over this before in another thread. That is not how the range or targeting rules in the PHB describe. A range of self means a target of self, whether as the target of the effect or the origin of the area of effect, you are the target. The enemy you make a melee attack against receives the spell's effect, but is not the spell's target. Booming blade works like Thunderous smite now (except instantaneous).
Yes, a range of "Self" means a target of self, but "Self" is not the same thing as "Self (5-foot radius)." Don't conflate them. The Player's Handbook doesn't actually say anything at all about what to do with a range of Self (5-foot radius), but the closest is what it says about AoE cones and lines: "Spells that create cones or lines of effect that originate from you also have a range of self, indicating that the origin point of the spell's effect must be you (see “Areas of Effect” later in the this chapter)." You'll note that none of that suggests that the caster is a target of the spell. Crawford has a tweet about this as well, but given his tweeting habits, the aforementioned line from the PHB is the closest we'll get
[EDIT] And a more specific Crawford tweet to add to the pile.
Right. Burning Hands doesn't target the caster so why would Booming Blade? A range of "Self (Area)" just means the caster is the spell's point of origin. It's basically a range of 0.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
They should really do a PHB errata to make that more clear. RAI Self (5 ft) & Self (non Cone/Line AoE) spells are supposed to fall under the same range as Self (Cone/Line), but RAW it says nothing about it cause I guess it's supposed to be implied? Yeah that's weird.
Edit: PHB not PBH, sometimes I type too fast for my own good.
if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.
And the point of origin is the target according to the rules. You can't use AOEs with war caster either.
I realize this may not have been what they meant when they changed the range, but this is what the rules say about the range they created.
Can you cite where it says the point of origin is the/a target? I quoted the rules text that made no mention of it. If it's someplace else, I'd like to know.
At Bladesinger 6, you can replace one of your attacks with a cantrip, so you could cantrip, sword, and the sword attack will activate the bonus action for staff. It's not really an optimal means of combat, but you can do it.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Saga is correct, and this has been explained recently by JC. You /can/ use BB/GFB with warcaster.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
The point of origin for an area of effect is a target (not the target) if you're asked to choose one. The rules tell you this, and it follows naturally from the dictionary definition of "target".
You never have to choose the point of origin for spells with a range of "Self (area)" because it's always you. A range of "Self" has two different meanings in the rule and the one that's relevant here does not necessarily imply targeting yourself.
So going back to Burning Hands, you don't have to choose a point of origin because it's always you, and in normal usage you're neither affected by it nor included in the area ("A cone's point of origin is not included in the cone's area of effect, unless you decide otherwise.") So by what stretch of the imagination is the caster a target?
Right, but that's true regardless of what the spell's range is. Whether it's "Self" or not doesn't factor into that. The issue is the spell targeting an area.
Booming Blade and Green-Flame Blade don't work like that despite the devs abusing the "Self" notation for them. Only one creature of your choosing in the 5 foot radius centered on you is ever going to suffer the spell's effects (and the issue of GFB's target being optional has now been clarified in the errata.)
The Forum Infestation (TM)
The rules are pretty clear that you can't use war caster to cast any spells with a range of self regardless of additional context because a spell with a range of self either can or does target yourself and not only the enemy creature.
Additional rules for this new and unique range is required.
Careful there. Those rules are not as clear as you think, for both accounts. Let's look over those quotes.
You can be the target, not is the target. In this context, this means you can attack yourself in the face with Booming Blade. Which would make it so you can't use war-caster, not because of anything you said, but because you can't AoO yourself. However, we aren't making a build for self-damage, so this doesn't matter.
Okay let's clear this up a bit. What is the target for a Self spell?
So this says, that if a spell has a range of Self, then it either means you are the target or the origin point (note you can't be both unless your attacking yourself). This is actually a weird case because technically Booming Blade does not target you (because the spell states the target is whoever takes damage), but at the same time Booming Blade isn't a cone or line of effect.
RAI it's fairly obvious that "Spells that create cones or lines of effect that originate from you also have a range of self" is supposed to be something like "Spells that create effects that originate from you also have a range of self". This is seen in spells like Thunderwave, the altered Lightning Lure, and there are more examples of Self(AoO) that aren't Self(Cone/Line).
Edit: Oh, disclaimer all emphasis is mine. You probably figured that out yourself.
Altered the text for minor grammar and stuff. I still stand by what i said earlier that the PHB needs a errata to make this more obvious.
if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.
There are also no rules for spells to have a point of origin without a defined area (ie line, cone, sphere). So technically these spells fully target self and a second creature per the RAW in PHB.
So the spellcasting rules in PHB need errata'd to include these new range types. I know what the RAI wanted it to mean, but they did not change the rules to properly reflect that. Thus these spells target you per the rules of the PHB.