Here's the situation. A Gloom Stalker ranger has become trapped in a room after triggering a stone barrier to fall, closing off the exit. When the ranger tried to raise the barrier, the DM told him, "You hear a low laugh from somewhere behind you". The room appears to be empty aside from some broken stone and old bones -- it is part of a catacombs -- as well as a large stone statue at the far end of the room. As such, the ranger now suspects that maybe the statue is more than it seems. (The statute is actually a gargoyle, but since it hasn't moved, the ranger can't yet tell it's alive.)
The room is completely dark, so the Gloom Stalker is therefore functionally invisible to anything that relies on darkvision to see. However, the Gloom Stalker triggered the barrier and then tried to force it open, so presumably he made some noise. As such, the gargoyle can't see the ranger, but it has heard sounds indicating another creature may have entered the room.
Neither of them has initiated combat yet. The two of them are just standing still in the darkness about 30 feet apart.
Suppose the ranger now shoots the statue with an arrow. Would the gargoyle be surprised?
Agreed with those above. No surprise would be given.
However, attacks made against the invisible creature are made with disadvantage, and it's attacks are made with advantage, because it is considered heavily obscured.
I don't agree there, I find surprise fairly easy to achieve especially with stealth characters played properly. It's easy to get high stealth scores, and there are a lot of stealth enhancing powers and items, for once.
First you have to already be deliberately moving quietly or notice the enemy before they notice you. Then the entire party (or whoever is with you) has to succeed a stealth roll. 1 stealthy character in a party will almost never get surprise, because the whole group needs to succeed.
I don't agree there, I find surprise fairly easy to achieve especially with stealth characters played properly. It's easy to get high stealth scores, and there are a lot of stealth enhancing powers and items, for once.
First you have to already be deliberately moving quietly or notice the enemy before they notice you. Then the entire party (or whoever is with you) has to succeed a stealth roll. 1 stealthy character in a party will almost never get surprise, because the whole group needs to succeed.
That is only if you don't use scouts. If indeed you move without precautions and as a group without care for the very noisy armored people, you deserve to never have surprise and to be easily surprised in return. But scouting ahead is certainly a thing, and in our groups we almost have one scout, if not more.
Second, remember that there is something in the RAW about this, which is called a group check. Not everyone needs to succeed if the most gifted help the more clumsy people.
Moreover, when you want to achieve surprise, even as a group, there are ways around this, for example a silence spell that you cast ahead.
It's all about tactics and playing smart, which both players and NPCs/Monsters can do. It's an exciting game, and honestly it's one area where, once you understand the concept, the rules work rather well, and are fairly realistic. I have done tons of LARPs and honestly, surprise is very much a thing even if you suspect that things are not what they seem.
Admittedly, it's one area where the DM's adjudication of the situation is critical, but we never have a problem with it (actually we have some now because of the stupid gloomstalker power, but we are dealing with it).
In order to travel stealthily, you need to move at half your travel speed (unless you are a ranger in favoured terrain or a scout). Having a scout moving at normal speed will just result in the scout being in solo combat.
According to RAW surprise is not determined by group checks. This is one of the house rules I've seen recommended though.
Silence doesn't move, a sneaking party does.
Arguing that the rules are realistic while providing an example that is the opposite of the written rule is oxymoronic.
I agree that DM discretion is critical, especially if a party wants to make frequent use of surprise.
I would say yes. The idea of surprise is that you don't know when combat is initiated. You don't get a chance to "outdraw" your opponent by rolling higher initiative.
You might make the ranger make a stealth check to draw his bow silently, and the gargoyle make a disadvantaged perception check to hear it.
Surprise here just means the ranger gets a free shot. It won't be either at advantage or disadvantage. The ranger would have disadvantage for being blind, but advantage from his target being blind.
I don't agree there, I find surprise fairly easy to achieve especially with stealth characters played properly. It's easy to get high stealth scores, and there are a lot of stealth enhancing powers and items, for once.
First you have to already be deliberately moving quietly or notice the enemy before they notice you. Then the entire party (or whoever is with you) has to succeed a stealth roll. 1 stealthy character in a party will almost never get surprise, because the whole group needs to succeed.
A few people recommend house rules for surprise.
I would not say "first" you have to be moving stealthily.
Once both parties are aware of each other, either can decide to initiate combat, and there is no surprise. But that didn't happen here. The ranger was not immediately sure what to attack. And the gargoyle was trying to remain still and keep it that way.
At any point during this standoff, the ranger can use the hide action, and stealth is established, if he has a successful roll. The gargoyle could, then, decide to initiate combat because he doesn't like having lost track of the ranger, and lash out with an attack at the ranger's last known position or a random location. In that case there would be no surprise. But if the gargoyle is still trying to remain still and unnoticed, the ranger can initiate combat from the shadows at the time of his choosing, and the gargoyle won't see it coming. That is surprise, because the gargoyle won't know the moment of the attack, so he can't try to "outdraw" the ranger and get off an attack (still against a random position) before him.
Stealth with a whole party is hard to achieve, but not as much as you might think. Yes, the monsters need only beat the party's lowest roll, but RAW, *each* monster needs to roll a perception check. Only monsters that succeed act during the surprise round. And they can only target PCs whose rolls they beat.
I do indeed house rule stealth, because RAW is just so many dice to roll and so much to track.
I don't agree there, I find surprise fairly easy to achieve especially with stealth characters played properly. It's easy to get high stealth scores, and there are a lot of stealth enhancing powers and items, for once.
First you have to already be deliberately moving quietly or notice the enemy before they notice you. Then the entire party (or whoever is with you) has to succeed a stealth roll. 1 stealthy character in a party will almost never get surprise, because the whole group needs to succeed.
That is only if you don't use scouts. If indeed you move without precautions and as a group without care for the very noisy armored people, you deserve to never have surprise and to be easily surprised in return. But scouting ahead is certainly a thing, and in our groups we almost have one scout, if not more.
Second, remember that there is something in the RAW about this, which is called a group check. Not everyone needs to succeed if the most gifted help the more clumsy people.
Moreover, when you want to achieve surprise, even as a group, there are ways around this, for example a silence spell that you cast ahead.
It's all about tactics and playing smart, which both players and NPCs/Monsters can do. It's an exciting game, and honestly it's one area where, once you understand the concept, the rules work rather well, and are fairly realistic. I have done tons of LARPs and honestly, surprise is very much a thing even if you suspect that things are not what they seem.
Admittedly, it's one area where the DM's adjudication of the situation is critical, but we never have a problem with it (actually we have some now because of the stupid gloomstalker power, but we are dealing with it).
In order to travel stealthily, you need to move at half your travel speed (unless you are a ranger in favoured terrain or a scout). Having a scout moving at normal speed will just result in the scout being in solo combat.
Not if he is a good scout and is undetected. Of course, if you send out incompetent scouts, yes, it will be the case, but usually, parties that are smart enough to have a scout are also smart enough to send a competent one, who can scout, come back and report without being detected.
According to RAW surprise is not determined by group checks. This is one of the house rules I've seen recommended though.
I don't think it's that clear in the rules. Here are the two key sentences:
Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side.
To make a group ability check, everyone in the group makes the ability check. If at least half the group succeeds, the whole group succeeds. Otherwise, the group fails.
The first sentence just says that checks are being made, but the second one says that the whole group can succeed in any case even if some members fail. So the comparison on the first sentence might indicate that some of the stealth checks are numerically below the passive perception of the opposing side, but the second sentence says that it is still a success, so the group as a whole is undetected.
Silence doesn't move, a sneaking party does.
And if you place the silence spell at the end of a corridor just before the room where the monsters are, it's perfect to approach undetected by noise.
Arguing that the rules are realistic while providing an example that is the opposite of the written rule is oxymoronic.
Hmmm, please be nice. The only thing I've said is "the rules work rather well, and are fairly realistic", which does not at all preclude me doing some improvements on an already good situation to make it better.
I agree that DM discretion is critical, especially if a party wants to make frequent use of surprise.
The party and the adversaries, because it's the other part of the stealth rules that JC insists so much on (and with good reason) in the famous podcast, it's that area of the game where, by definition, you don't know everything that you would like to know, only the DM knows and his adjudication is not only necessary but to be trusted absolutely because he does not have to explain to you that 20 orcs ninjas are sneaking into your fortress...
So smart parties will always have a ranger for every terrain type, or a familiar or druid that doesn't draw suspicion even if seen? RAW, in order to travel stealthily you have to travel at half speed. Stealth skill doesn't matter otherwise.
I'll drop the group check argument, but it is by nature optional and up to DM. I do hope DMs will choose to use it for stealth.
Ok, silence can have niche uses. Weird that PCs would notice enemies in a room down a hall without those same enemies noticing them though. Like it could happen if you leave noisy characters to do nothing.
But if the gargoyle is still trying to remain still and unnoticed, the ranger can initiate combat from the shadows at the time of his choosing, and the gargoyle won't see it coming. That is surprise, because the gargoyle won't know the moment of the attack, so he can't try to "outdraw" the ranger and get off an attack (still against a random position) before him.
And actually maybe two attacks before the gargoyle if he wins initiative.
Stealth with a whole party is hard to achieve, but not as much as you might think. Yes, the monsters need only beat the party's lowest roll, but RAW, *each* monster needs to roll a perception check.
This is not how it works RAW, there is no perception check, there are stealth check against the passive perception of the adversary.
Only monsters that succeed act during the surprise round. And they can only target PCs whose rolls they beat.
I do indeed house rule stealth, because RAW is just so many dice to roll and so much to track.
I'm not sure why you are saying this. Remember that you only roll stealth once until you are detected or leave stealth, so it's not that much rolling.
Yes, you are correct. It's passive perception, not a roll.
It's still a lot of checks. If there are N players and M monsters, we have to make N x M comparisons to know which monsters perceive which players. And have to make a note of that.
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Here's the situation. A Gloom Stalker ranger has become trapped in a room after triggering a stone barrier to fall, closing off the exit. When the ranger tried to raise the barrier, the DM told him, "You hear a low laugh from somewhere behind you". The room appears to be empty aside from some broken stone and old bones -- it is part of a catacombs -- as well as a large stone statue at the far end of the room. As such, the ranger now suspects that maybe the statue is more than it seems. (The statute is actually a gargoyle, but since it hasn't moved, the ranger can't yet tell it's alive.)
The room is completely dark, so the Gloom Stalker is therefore functionally invisible to anything that relies on darkvision to see. However, the Gloom Stalker triggered the barrier and then tried to force it open, so presumably he made some noise. As such, the gargoyle can't see the ranger, but it has heard sounds indicating another creature may have entered the room.
Neither of them has initiated combat yet. The two of them are just standing still in the darkness about 30 feet apart.
Suppose the ranger now shoots the statue with an arrow. Would the gargoyle be surprised?
Both adversaries know that the other is there.
Neither is stealthed.
No surprise.
What Farling said.
You only get surprise if the enemy does not know you are there. Surprise is surprisingly hard to get.
Agreed with those above. No surprise would be given.
However, attacks made against the invisible creature are made with disadvantage, and it's attacks are made with advantage, because it is considered heavily obscured.
First you have to already be deliberately moving quietly or notice the enemy before they notice you. Then the entire party (or whoever is with you) has to succeed a stealth roll. 1 stealthy character in a party will almost never get surprise, because the whole group needs to succeed.
A few people recommend house rules for surprise.
In order to travel stealthily, you need to move at half your travel speed (unless you are a ranger in favoured terrain or a scout). Having a scout moving at normal speed will just result in the scout being in solo combat.
According to RAW surprise is not determined by group checks. This is one of the house rules I've seen recommended though.
Silence doesn't move, a sneaking party does.
Arguing that the rules are realistic while providing an example that is the opposite of the written rule is oxymoronic.
I agree that DM discretion is critical, especially if a party wants to make frequent use of surprise.
I would say yes. The idea of surprise is that you don't know when combat is initiated. You don't get a chance to "outdraw" your opponent by rolling higher initiative.
You might make the ranger make a stealth check to draw his bow silently, and the gargoyle make a disadvantaged perception check to hear it.
Surprise here just means the ranger gets a free shot. It won't be either at advantage or disadvantage. The ranger would have disadvantage for being blind, but advantage from his target being blind.
I would not say "first" you have to be moving stealthily.
Once both parties are aware of each other, either can decide to initiate combat, and there is no surprise. But that didn't happen here. The ranger was not immediately sure what to attack. And the gargoyle was trying to remain still and keep it that way.
At any point during this standoff, the ranger can use the hide action, and stealth is established, if he has a successful roll. The gargoyle could, then, decide to initiate combat because he doesn't like having lost track of the ranger, and lash out with an attack at the ranger's last known position or a random location. In that case there would be no surprise. But if the gargoyle is still trying to remain still and unnoticed, the ranger can initiate combat from the shadows at the time of his choosing, and the gargoyle won't see it coming. That is surprise, because the gargoyle won't know the moment of the attack, so he can't try to "outdraw" the ranger and get off an attack (still against a random position) before him.
Stealth with a whole party is hard to achieve, but not as much as you might think. Yes, the monsters need only beat the party's lowest roll, but RAW, *each* monster needs to roll a perception check. Only monsters that succeed act during the surprise round. And they can only target PCs whose rolls they beat.
I do indeed house rule stealth, because RAW is just so many dice to roll and so much to track.
So smart parties will always have a ranger for every terrain type, or a familiar or druid that doesn't draw suspicion even if seen? RAW, in order to travel stealthily you have to travel at half speed. Stealth skill doesn't matter otherwise.
I'll drop the group check argument, but it is by nature optional and up to DM. I do hope DMs will choose to use it for stealth.
Ok, silence can have niche uses. Weird that PCs would notice enemies in a room down a hall without those same enemies noticing them though. Like it could happen if you leave noisy characters to do nothing.
I was nice. "Oxymoron" isn't an insult.
Yes, you are correct. It's passive perception, not a roll.
It's still a lot of checks. If there are N players and M monsters, we have to make N x M comparisons to know which monsters perceive which players. And have to make a note of that.