What exactly is the RAW interaction if you cast Fog Cloud, and then you and your party want to sneak through that Fog. I would also want to take into account the targets reaction to fog just randomly appearing and obscuring their vision as well in terms of how it should play out.
Example scenario - There is a group of guards standing in front of an open gate, you cast Fog Cloud from a hidden position so that the guards are now in the Fog Cloud. Can the party then sneak through the open gate, through the Fog Cloud that is now cast at the opening? What kind of disadvantages do the guards incur when trying to find us in the Cloud as we go by? Does being in the Cloud ourselves force us to take disadvantage on sneak checks as well?
The area within Fog Cloud is considered heavily obscured which caused the Blinded condition to all within said area. Any ability check requiring sight results in automatic failure. So in this scenario, the guards would fail any perception or investigation attempt to locate your party, although they can still attempt to find you by listening for your movement or become aware of your presence if a stealth check is failed.
On the flip side, your party would likewise be blinded and may have a more difficult time maneuvering through the Fog Cloud without pumping into one another or the guards who may now be moving around in confusion.
That makes sense. So my understanding is that the guards would be at disadvantage trying to find us as we sneak by.
But to your second point, then what exactly is the penalty for the party, sneaking through while trying not to hit the guards? Is it essentially going to come down to both the party and the guards rolling with disadvantage for sneak/ perception?
Essentially. Depends on how the DM plays it as they can do rolls to determine how the guards move while having you the players roll to see if you move through without running into said guards. There is also the matter of whether or not the guards will have made noise or raised an alarm after a sudden fog appeared out of nowhere upon them
What exactly is the RAW interaction if you cast Fog Cloud, and then you and your party want to sneak through that Fog. I would also want to take into account the targets reaction to fog just randomly appearing and obscuring their vision as well in terms of how it should play out.
Example scenario - There is a group of guards standing in front of an open gate, you cast Fog Cloud from a hidden position so that the guards are now in the Fog Cloud. Can the party then sneak through the open gate, through the Fog Cloud that is now cast at the opening? What kind of disadvantages do the guards incur when trying to find us in the Cloud as we go by? Does being in the Cloud ourselves force us to take disadvantage on sneak checks as well?
Thanks for the help in clarifying!
The spell Fog Cloud create an heavily obscured area of effect, making guards effectively blinded. Such dense fog suddenly appearing at random is bound to raise immediate suspicions.
The party being already hidden should have their Dexterity (Stealth) check contested by the guard's Passive Peception score, so there is no need to make another one.
How i'd play it would be by using the Surprise rules, so the spell would be cast in the first round of combat.
Note that blinded creatures doesn't suffer disadvantage -5 to their Passive Perception to notice people sneaking. While a blinded creature can't see and automatically fails any ability check that requires sight, the Wisdom (Perception) check is not solely based on sight to notice a creature hiding, but hearing, smell etc... In order to try to hide you generally must not be seen clearly so it would otherwise be penalty always in place.
I certainly would have guards question it if all of a sudden they're bathed in dense fog since it doesn't sounds very natural occurence but more a magic phenomenon, especially if they are surprised but no further agression happens, they would likely raise the alarm and Search for intruders while moving out of the fog, followed moments later by more guards coming to investigate.
This is one of those unintuitive cases where if a fight breaks out within the fog and therefore everyone on the battlefield is effectively blinded, attack rolls resolve as normal (as if everyone could see perfectly) because advantage and disadvantage cancel.
This is one of those unintuitive cases where if a fight breaks out within the fog and therefore everyone on the battlefield is effectively blinded, attack rolls resolve as normal (as if everyone could see perfectly) because advantage and disadvantage cancel.
This is one of those unintuitive cases where if a fight breaks out within the fog and therefore everyone on the battlefield is effectively blinded, attack rolls resolve as normal (as if everyone could see perfectly) because advantage and disadvantage cancel.
Where is the advantage coming from?
Blinded
A blinded creature can't see and automatically fails any ability check that requires sight.
Attack rolls against the creature have advantage, and the creature's attack rolls have disadvantage.
A blinded creature in an heavily obscured area such as Fog Cloud has advantage on attack roll because it's an unseen attacker but has also disadvantage because it can't see, which is therefore considered to have neither of them;
Unseen Attackers and Targets: Combatants often try to escape their foes' notice by hiding, casting the invisibility spell, or lurking in darkness. When you attack a target that you can't see, you have disadvantage on the attack roll. This is true whether you're guessing the target's location or you're targeting a creature you can hear but not see. If the target isn't in the location you targeted, you automatically miss, but the DM typically just says that the attack missed, not whether you guessed the target's location correctly. When a creature can't see you, you have advantage on attack rolls against it. If you are hidden--both unseen and unheard--when you make an attack, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses.
Advantage and Disadvantage: If circumstances cause a roll to have both advantage and disadvantage, you are considered to have neither of them, and you roll one d20. This is true even if multiple circumstances impose disadvantage and only one grants advantage or vice versa. In such a situation, you have neither advantage nor disadvantage.
How i'd play it would be by using the Surprise rules, so the spell would be cast in the first round of combat.
ahh okay that was another thing that I had started thinking of as well; would it force combat to start. I really wanted to avoid starting combat since Fog Cloud can be debilitating for the rest of the party in combat. I was hoping there'd be some kind of utility to it outside of combat that could help. But I think you make a totally fair and reasonable argument for why it should start a round of combat.
The issue with hostile action before initiative is that once you allow it, it quickly become the norm where your players frequently try to pull one off before initiative.
The surprise rules exist for this purposes and works fine for most encounter context.
I think plaguescarred and others covered the relevant rules.
1) The fog cloud creates a heavily obscured area. This means that no one in the area can see unless they have blindsight.
2) Fog does not cause disadvantage on perception checks. The blinded condition means that any checks that rely on sight automatically fail but perception involves sight, hearing, touch, smell etc.
3) The guards would notice creatures moving through the fog based on stealth vs passive perception checks. Keep in mind that the same may very well be true for the characters keeping track of where the guards might be. The guards might call out to each other but they might not.
4) RAW, unless a creature takes the hide action, their "square" or general location remains known. This is important since it relates to someone's comment about the creatures bumping into each other in the fog. RAW, it is possible to walk around other creatures in a fog cloud without running into them unless they have taken the hide action and the character loses track of where they are. Some DMs don't think this makes sense.
That pretty much covers the rules ... much of the rest of the encounter is a DM decision.
1) Initiative or not? Fog cloud isn't necessarily an attack. If the character had wanted to cast a magic missile or make a ranged weapon attack from hiding then you would roll initiative and apply surprise as appropriate. Fog cloud is a DM call.
You could have everyone roll initiative and that may well be the easiest way to resolve it. On the other hand, it could be resolved narratively until the point where combat occurs, IF that happens. In that case though, there would be no element of surprise since the fog cloud has alerted the guards that something is going on.
2) Guards reaction. This is a D&D world, all of the guards know that an instant fog cloud is not natural and is in fact a common capability of spell casters. The guards are guarding a gate, presumably for a reason. What do they do as soon as the fog cloud appears (in a D&D world not our world), they likely close the gate. They close it as quickly as possible since that would be the most reliable way to perform their duty since the instant appearance of the fog cloud has alerted them that something is going on. If for some reason they can't close the gate then at least some of them would pull out their weapons and stand in the way of the gate so that people can't sneak past them in the fog (unless the gate is really wide and would be impossible to physically block).
Basically, the appearance of the fog cloud out of nowhere has made it impossible for the characters to sneak through the gate unless the guards stand there saying "Hey, what's going on, where did this fog come from? Any idea Joe?" ... which might make sense in our world but would make absolutely no sense in a D&D world unless magic is so staggeringly uncommon that no one has ever seen any or heard stories of it (i.e. not most D&D worlds).
3) How "aware" are creatures of each other when they can't see each other. RAW, you can run through a fog cloud and avoid all the other creatures in it unless they are hidden. This is especially true in combat since once a creature is placed on a square, unless they take the hide action, you know which square they are on and which ones they move to - thus allowing you to traverse different squares and avoid the creature. This makes it impossible to "bump" into another creature while moving through a fog cloud in a D&D game which might seem a bit unrealistic to some and could inspire some house rules or home brewing in the moment that the DM needs to decide about in advance.
Finally to answer the specific questions ...
"Can the party then sneak through the open gate, through the Fog Cloud that is now cast at the opening?"
If the gate remains open and the guards don't pull out weapons and move to block the opening then sure. However, unless the guards are asleep, I think that is really unlikely.
"What kind of disadvantages do the guards incur when trying to find us in the Cloud as we go by?"
None. Perception checks are based on all the senses and aren't affected by a fog cloud. In some ways it is easier to hear things in fog since you pay more attention to it since your vision isn't as useful. RAW though, there are no disadvantages for the guards other than the fact that they can't see you.
"Does being in the Cloud ourselves force us to take disadvantage on sneak checks as well?"
No. No disadvantage on sneak, no disadvantage on perception. In this case, sneak is determining how quietly and unobtrusively the character can move and whether they make enough of a disturbance that it attracts the attention of the other creature in the fog cloud.
Keep in mind though that some of the guards may decide to move quietly to better listen for creatures in the fog which may well be the equivalent of hiding and result in both the characters and the NPCs losing track of each other. Also, if the characters are hiding in the fog, keep in mind that there is the possibility that they lose track of each other too as some of them move too quietly for others to hear unless the characters have taken some precautions.
Its true that its not an attack spell but its still a debilitating effect so if i put things back into context, if the party was successfully hidden on the bushes and watching guards at a gate, the moment one of them would indicate wanting to cast Fog Cloudi i would call for initiative based on declared intent.
If the guards rolled higher initiative since they're unaware they would keep doing whatever the were doing until getting surprised by the fog appearing or some others noticeable actions occuring before.
In a world where magic exists it is possible that guards have trained a counter to such shenanigans. How about, when a fog cloud mysteriousy appears they close the gate?
Anything is possible if the DM wish so, but IMHO it'd be unlikely that they set procedure / practice drill etc to react to such sudden heavy fog appearance as it's a very unusual event to occur and most guards probably even never seen this before in their whole life.
And also if the guards are surprised, they won't be able to take action or reaction in response to it depending.
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What exactly is the RAW interaction if you cast Fog Cloud, and then you and your party want to sneak through that Fog. I would also want to take into account the targets reaction to fog just randomly appearing and obscuring their vision as well in terms of how it should play out.
Example scenario - There is a group of guards standing in front of an open gate, you cast Fog Cloud from a hidden position so that the guards are now in the Fog Cloud. Can the party then sneak through the open gate, through the Fog Cloud that is now cast at the opening? What kind of disadvantages do the guards incur when trying to find us in the Cloud as we go by? Does being in the Cloud ourselves force us to take disadvantage on sneak checks as well?
Thanks for the help in clarifying!
The area within Fog Cloud is considered heavily obscured which caused the Blinded condition to all within said area. Any ability check requiring sight results in automatic failure. So in this scenario, the guards would fail any perception or investigation attempt to locate your party, although they can still attempt to find you by listening for your movement or become aware of your presence if a stealth check is failed.
On the flip side, your party would likewise be blinded and may have a more difficult time maneuvering through the Fog Cloud without pumping into one another or the guards who may now be moving around in confusion.
That makes sense. So my understanding is that the guards would be at disadvantage trying to find us as we sneak by.
But to your second point, then what exactly is the penalty for the party, sneaking through while trying not to hit the guards? Is it essentially going to come down to both the party and the guards rolling with disadvantage for sneak/ perception?
Essentially. Depends on how the DM plays it as they can do rolls to determine how the guards move while having you the players roll to see if you move through without running into said guards. There is also the matter of whether or not the guards will have made noise or raised an alarm after a sudden fog appeared out of nowhere upon them
The spell Fog Cloud create an heavily obscured area of effect, making guards effectively blinded. Such dense fog suddenly appearing at random is bound to raise immediate suspicions.
The party being already hidden should have their Dexterity (Stealth) check contested by the guard's Passive Peception score, so there is no need to make another one.
How i'd play it would be by using the Surprise rules, so the spell would be cast in the first round of combat.
Note that blinded creatures doesn't suffer disadvantage -5 to their Passive Perception to notice people sneaking. While a blinded creature can't see and automatically fails any ability check that requires sight, the Wisdom (Perception) check is not solely based on sight to notice a creature hiding, but hearing, smell etc... In order to try to hide you generally must not be seen clearly so it would otherwise be penalty always in place.
I certainly would have guards question it if all of a sudden they're bathed in dense fog since it doesn't sounds very natural occurence but more a magic phenomenon, especially if they are surprised but no further agression happens, they would likely raise the alarm and Search for intruders while moving out of the fog, followed moments later by more guards coming to investigate.
This is one of those unintuitive cases where if a fight breaks out within the fog and therefore everyone on the battlefield is effectively blinded, attack rolls resolve as normal (as if everyone could see perfectly) because advantage and disadvantage cancel.
Where is the advantage coming from?
A blinded creature in an heavily obscured area such as Fog Cloud has advantage on attack roll because it's an unseen attacker but has also disadvantage because it can't see, which is therefore considered to have neither of them;
ahh okay that was another thing that I had started thinking of as well; would it force combat to start. I really wanted to avoid starting combat since Fog Cloud can be debilitating for the rest of the party in combat. I was hoping there'd be some kind of utility to it outside of combat that could help. But I think you make a totally fair and reasonable argument for why it should start a round of combat.
Thank you for your input!
The issue with hostile action before initiative is that once you allow it, it quickly become the norm where your players frequently try to pull one off before initiative.
The surprise rules exist for this purposes and works fine for most encounter context.
I think plaguescarred and others covered the relevant rules.
1) The fog cloud creates a heavily obscured area. This means that no one in the area can see unless they have blindsight.
2) Fog does not cause disadvantage on perception checks. The blinded condition means that any checks that rely on sight automatically fail but perception involves sight, hearing, touch, smell etc.
3) The guards would notice creatures moving through the fog based on stealth vs passive perception checks. Keep in mind that the same may very well be true for the characters keeping track of where the guards might be. The guards might call out to each other but they might not.
4) RAW, unless a creature takes the hide action, their "square" or general location remains known. This is important since it relates to someone's comment about the creatures bumping into each other in the fog. RAW, it is possible to walk around other creatures in a fog cloud without running into them unless they have taken the hide action and the character loses track of where they are. Some DMs don't think this makes sense.
That pretty much covers the rules ... much of the rest of the encounter is a DM decision.
1) Initiative or not? Fog cloud isn't necessarily an attack. If the character had wanted to cast a magic missile or make a ranged weapon attack from hiding then you would roll initiative and apply surprise as appropriate. Fog cloud is a DM call.
You could have everyone roll initiative and that may well be the easiest way to resolve it. On the other hand, it could be resolved narratively until the point where combat occurs, IF that happens. In that case though, there would be no element of surprise since the fog cloud has alerted the guards that something is going on.
2) Guards reaction. This is a D&D world, all of the guards know that an instant fog cloud is not natural and is in fact a common capability of spell casters. The guards are guarding a gate, presumably for a reason. What do they do as soon as the fog cloud appears (in a D&D world not our world), they likely close the gate. They close it as quickly as possible since that would be the most reliable way to perform their duty since the instant appearance of the fog cloud has alerted them that something is going on. If for some reason they can't close the gate then at least some of them would pull out their weapons and stand in the way of the gate so that people can't sneak past them in the fog (unless the gate is really wide and would be impossible to physically block).
Basically, the appearance of the fog cloud out of nowhere has made it impossible for the characters to sneak through the gate unless the guards stand there saying "Hey, what's going on, where did this fog come from? Any idea Joe?" ... which might make sense in our world but would make absolutely no sense in a D&D world unless magic is so staggeringly uncommon that no one has ever seen any or heard stories of it (i.e. not most D&D worlds).
3) How "aware" are creatures of each other when they can't see each other. RAW, you can run through a fog cloud and avoid all the other creatures in it unless they are hidden. This is especially true in combat since once a creature is placed on a square, unless they take the hide action, you know which square they are on and which ones they move to - thus allowing you to traverse different squares and avoid the creature. This makes it impossible to "bump" into another creature while moving through a fog cloud in a D&D game which might seem a bit unrealistic to some and could inspire some house rules or home brewing in the moment that the DM needs to decide about in advance.
Finally to answer the specific questions ...
"Can the party then sneak through the open gate, through the Fog Cloud that is now cast at the opening?"
If the gate remains open and the guards don't pull out weapons and move to block the opening then sure. However, unless the guards are asleep, I think that is really unlikely.
"What kind of disadvantages do the guards incur when trying to find us in the Cloud as we go by?"
None. Perception checks are based on all the senses and aren't affected by a fog cloud. In some ways it is easier to hear things in fog since you pay more attention to it since your vision isn't as useful. RAW though, there are no disadvantages for the guards other than the fact that they can't see you.
"Does being in the Cloud ourselves force us to take disadvantage on sneak checks as well?"
No. No disadvantage on sneak, no disadvantage on perception. In this case, sneak is determining how quietly and unobtrusively the character can move and whether they make enough of a disturbance that it attracts the attention of the other creature in the fog cloud.
Keep in mind though that some of the guards may decide to move quietly to better listen for creatures in the fog which may well be the equivalent of hiding and result in both the characters and the NPCs losing track of each other. Also, if the characters are hiding in the fog, keep in mind that there is the possibility that they lose track of each other too as some of them move too quietly for others to hear unless the characters have taken some precautions.
Its true that its not an attack spell but its still a debilitating effect so if i put things back into context, if the party was successfully hidden on the bushes and watching guards at a gate, the moment one of them would indicate wanting to cast Fog Cloudi i would call for initiative based on declared intent.
If the guards rolled higher initiative since they're unaware they would keep doing whatever the were doing until getting surprised by the fog appearing or some others noticeable actions occuring before.
In a world where magic exists it is possible that guards have trained a counter to such shenanigans. How about, when a fog cloud mysteriousy appears they close the gate?
Anything is possible if the DM wish so, but IMHO it'd be unlikely that they set procedure / practice drill etc to react to such sudden heavy fog appearance as it's a very unusual event to occur and most guards probably even never seen this before in their whole life.
And also if the guards are surprised, they won't be able to take action or reaction in response to it depending.