I was wondering about the how devils get the souls of mortals. Currently I know that "Most of the evil souls confined to an afterlife in the Nine Hells become lemures" and "... a devil signs a contract that pledges a mortal's soul to the Nine Hells" in terms of souls.
But giving your soul to the Nine Hells means an afterlife of fighting in the Blood War. So devils like to bend a person's alignment towards evil so they are "confined to an afterlife in the Nine Hells". But how would a devil do this? It wouldn't be hard for a devil to make a deal that results in the person ending up a lemure, and it is far more beneficial for a devil to confine "A stronger soul, such as a mighty warrior who leaves mortality behind to become an ice devil". So how does a devil bend such a person to evil if they aren't already? How can a contract change (or rather break) someone's moral judgement?
And then there is demons. What does a demon do with souls? Do such souls become demons, and that's how new demons spawn and I just missed something? And do all the demon lords participate in the Blood War? Baphomet and Demogorgon are perfectly suited to front-lining the Blood War, but Graz'zt in particular doesn't seem to suit the Blood War. So what does Graz'zt want from cultists?
And why doesn't Demogorgon and Zariel just fight to the death? Why can't the Demon Lords just swarm Avernus? Why is Geryon on Stygia instead of on the front lines? I feel like Asmodeus is just wasting a potent force on infighting. Do any of these questions even have answers? But ya mostly interested in the first question about devil contracts.
For your first question, it doesn't turn them to evil. Devils wouldn't make a contract with someone who's already LE, that would defeat the purpose. Part of the contract is that the souls go to the Nine Hells after death.
What do demons do with souls? It depends on the demon. CE souls become demons when they die. Not all of the demon lords take part in the Blood War, keep in mind that they also fight each other. Graz'zt wants what every demon wants- more power. More cultists = more minions = bigger army = more power.
Demogorgon cannot permanently die while in the Nine Hells, so I presume Zariel might've killed him multiple times. The demons try to swarm Avernus, but the devils are better tacticians, and the demons have too much infighting to actually win with overwhelming force. Geryon is on Stygia because of infernal politics. He's trying to get the throne of Levistus- but he can't do that if he's way up in Avernus.
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All stars fade. Some stars forever fall. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Homebrew (Mostly Outdated):Magic Items,Monsters,Spells,Subclasses ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If there was no light, people wouldn't fear the dark.
Naturelull, have your read Mordenkanian's Tome of Foes? It's chapter on the Blood War and the Abyss and Nine Hells does give you what the principals (Arch Devils and Demon Lords) have in terms of long game motivations. The Blood War doesn't have simple solution because it's supposed to be an intractable endless war (some may say by design).
For "how do Devils corrupt," since we're talking about morality, which can be a subjective thing and WotC doesn't want to impose its on its player base they keep out of the moral calculus game of what is evil for the most part outside of broad brush strokes so how a Infernal would corrupt a mortal soul is up to the DM. Which is cool because there is SO. MUCH. LITERATURE AND LORE. on this subject from real literary and artistic traditions that inspires the D&D hellscape. Check out Milton's Paradise Lost, or cliff notes as it's a slog if you're not up to read lit from that period, to get a poetic take on the story of the fall of Satan (which is very much the story of Asmodeus) and the whole why mess around with human souls. Marlowe's Doktor Faustus is more readable and gives you a sense of how a Devil could corrupt a being through the being's ambitions. if you like, read Goethe's as well, it's longer but that gives you more material. C.S. Lewis' Screwtape Letters have a more conscious theological bent, but also give a morbidly delightful look into how "the business of Hell" is despair inducing bureaucracy, and how that machinery works industriously to corrupt everyday souls in every day life. My favorite contemporary take comes from the 90s TV Show Millennium, who did a sort of 4th wall breaking episode called "Somehow, the Devil Got Behind Me" arguably one of the best episodes of genre tv ever made, its punchline here (added punchline, the donut shopkeep urinated in the last Devil's coffee (that's evil, right?), hence the revelation at the end):
So Devil's are all about the seduction of evil, and the contracts are basically the symbol of how that seduction literally binds you to furthering your way down evil's path.
Demons are ravagers. They just take and break. Devils have a grand design they commit themselves too, Demons coalescences of obliteration. Hell is oppression the Abyss is just destruction. In my game, the Abyss in many ways sees itself as at war with coherent reality. My favorite Demon Lord Fraz Urb'luu is described as the lord of deception and lies, but sees itself more as a Lord of "the truth" or revelation that there is not truth or reality, and proves his point by breaking it as much as possible. There's a Jesse Venture speech from the X-Files I use to warm myself up with Fraz Urb'luu is in play:
RP tip: professional wrestlers make great speech pattern templates for Demon Lords, politicians work well for Devils.
I make the distinction quickly at my table by telling my players "Devils will deal for souls, though rarely will they do so from anything but maximum leverage. Demons take souls with overwhelming force. A Devil shows you the doors to Hell, A Demon runs through you and what's left of you falls into the Abyss."
While there's a lot of prior edition lore out there, the way the outer planes are presented in 5e gives the DM and players a lot of space to develop metaphysical and philosophical speculation on morality (what's good and evil and why there's a difference of valuation in the first place) and metaphysics (what are souls and why are there souls?). They're not essential considerations to playing the game, but my table has fun with the ideas.
There's also The Rolling Stones "Sympathy for the Devil" who basically argues the Devil is always around, somewhere in the crowd, when humanity takes a bad turn. Good persona model for a jaded infernal.
For your first question, it doesn't turn them to evil. Devils wouldn't make a contract with someone who's already LE, that would defeat the purpose. Part of the contract is that the souls go to the Nine Hells after death.
What do demons do with souls? It depends on the demon. CE souls become demons when they die. Not all of the demon lords take part in the Blood War, keep in mind that they also fight each other. Graz'zt wants what every demon wants- more power. More cultists = more minions = bigger army = more power.
Demogorgon cannot permanently die while in the Nine Hells, so I presume Zariel might've killed him multiple times. The demons try to swarm Avernus, but the devils are better tacticians, and the demons have too much infighting to actually win with overwhelming force. Geryon is on Stygia because of infernal politics. He's trying to get the throne of Levistus- but he can't do that if he's way up in Avernus.
Thank you for your response. :)
I don't quite understand the first part though. Yes I know a devil wouldn't bother making a contract with someone already Lawful Evil. But from what I understand, people are very unlikely to blatantly just give their soul to the Nine Hells. Hence a Devil would try to corrupt their morality.
Also I know Geryon is on Stygia because of politics and he wants to take over Levistus. But why does Asmodeus care? Why doesn't Asmodeus just put Geryon on Avernus anyway?
Again thank you for your response. :) I appreciate the help. :)
There are two types of corruption: Gradual corruption, Sudden corruption, and Tempted corruption. Use which is more appropriate.
Know your players' alignment, personality traits, bonds, and especially their flaws. Fiendish corruption is changing a character's alignment to evil.
Gradual corruption is the works of manipulation. Instead of sudden corruption which is a mistake related to a trait or flaw, gradual corruption is repetitive and consistent appeal to a specific flaw. A succubus would appeal to lust. Another demon could appeal to paranoia. Pride, gluttony, sloth, etc. Scenarios will continue coming up that tempts a PC. It will eventually take a toll on their alignment. Finally, introduce one final event: the ultimate test. Should they fail, their soul belongs to the fiend. If they succeed, c h a r a c t e r d e v e l o p e m e n t. (A PC's flaw is repeatedly tempted by a fiend. If this happens to many times, they are corrupted.)
Sudden corruption often comes in a surge of passion. Something that could hurt their character emotionally, or challenge their ideals and moral perspective is a perfect situation. A paladin takes the road of vengeance & slaughter. A rogue betrays a deep trust. A barbarian gets too invested in their rage. When a player makes a choice that leaves the entire table speechless, then is your time to strike. Have a fiend convince the PC that they did the right thing... that they were justified.... If the player fails to make amends to themself, their god, their morals, or those they have hurt, they have been successfully corrupted. If the PC doesn't apologize, this vengeful energy can continue to build up. (A PC makes a sinful act committed without recompense, weight of their sins begin to drag them down.)
Tempted corruption is incentivized. While gradual corruption occurs without the knowledge of the PC, this corruption is completely open. A fiend offers riches or power in exchange for service or souls. This is the corruption used on cultists, warlocks, etc. It is affective, straightforward, and has great potential: Try appealing to the specific interests of a PC: the revival of a murdered family member. respect from family. a cool sword. It will make the world feel more immersive. There are no specific rules. (A PC makes a contract with a fiend, their soul or service in exchange for a deep desire.)
Okay, I have an imp familiar who has risen to the level of DMPC almost. He's served a couple different warlocks in my game and he always encourages them to make friends with the highborn and powerful. He likes to tell his rookies the following:
"Hell - we do a volume business, see? Getting a nice shiny soul is good for the resume, but there's still the War Against Chaos to win. So the way we're evolving is to take all those tricks and snares we used to set out in front of the most noble and righteous, and instead, we throw them in front of the people we need to corrupt a whole society. If you can turn an entire nation evil, if you can convince them to go out and hang and murder and terrorize their neighbors; murder innocent women and children in the name of 'civilization' or 'tradition' or 'honor' - whole generations are born not knowing which way is up. They'll lie, cheat, and steal to keep the status quo in place. You don't have to do nothing! They're born, they die, and they fall right into the engines and they never stood a chance. Truth is, you could tell them to their face and they wouldn't believe you. If you took them out of our cages, they'd fight to the death to try to get back in. It's sincerely the most beautiful sight in the universe. A human face seeking out a boot, forever.
But what are these techniques? Well, suppose I told you that you can convince humans that if enough of them do the wrong thing...they'll start believing that it's the right thing?! What if I told you that once our team controls the levers of power, you can get them to believe that injustice and cruelty isn't ANYONE'S FAULT AT ALL??? That's it's just part of the natural order of things? Imagine what they'd let themselves get away with then?!
But this is advanced stuff. For right now, we're going to concentrate on the basics. There are four basic avenues to corrupt a human: 1) Money; 2) Ideology; 3) Compromise; and 4) Ego. We use the acronym MICE, to help us remember. Bright kids like you normally ask: Where's sex? The truth is, sex isn't, on its own, much value. The kind of people who switch teams over sex aren't usually worth having. Leave the penny-ante business for the succu-boys and girls. Where sex is useful is where it overlaps with the Big Four.
Money sounds crass, but for mortals, it's not just shiny bits of metal, it's a path that leads them to safety and comfort, it's a way to get the thing they actually want. What is it they actually want? Sadly, they often don't know. They often lack a sense of identity and purpose. That's where guys like us come in. We provide the purpose that they didn't know they lacked. We don't just hand them the money, we take the time to really listen, and understand what they really want out of life. Then we shift over to dangling that specific thing in front of them.
Ideology breeds conflicts with the established order, which by its nature, demands compromise. The more ideological a person is, the less likely it is that they're satisfied with the world as it is today. You can flip these people slowly, usually by approaching them through a cutout they trust. Keep them out of the main fight, the one they're spoiling to get in and instead get them angry at their chain of command. It's a great way to disrupt the system.
Compromise is my personal favorite. Everybody keeps secrets. Everybody has a secret that's so important they'll hurt themselves to keep from acknowledging it, let alone what they'd do to others. You just have to watch quietly until they show you what it is. And then you offer to help them protect their secret, like a pal. Simple as that. I'll give you a case study. Down in Scumtown there is a little red church. In the courtyard around back there's a nun, probably there right now, giving free shaves and haircuts to bums or something. Go find her; smack her right across the eyes; and you will be in a sword fight with the baddest-ass sword fighter I've ever ever seen. Home office would send the Third Legion after her, but they'd come back in one big body bag and no one could tell which part went with who. But I'm gonna get her. She's my ticket to the big leagues. She's my masterpiece. Because I know two things she doesn't know. The first is that she sneaks chocolate. She carries a bar of chocolate around with her and snacks on it during the day, but never when anyone else can see her. That doesn't sound like much but wait till you hear the second part. You have to look really slowly to notice, but she's stopped aging. That's me, too. Last time she was trapped in hell, I filled out a few forms, misfiled a few others and she was unwittingly granted a Diabolic Charm of Agelessness. Why? Because sneaking chocolate doesn't sound like much, but give me 200 years to work, and I can build it into her breaking her oath. I guarantee that. That's why you picked the winning team, kid. Gravity Always Wins. Sooner or later, everything falls. We're just ahead of the curve.
Ego works best when you keep your client off-balance. The problem with human ego is it's capable of almost infinite growth and if you let them, they start to forget who their friends are. So you have to arrange first, that their ego gets wounded by someone else, and second, that you can give them a chance at payback.
Once you learn these basic techniques you can start combining them. A wife would do anything to keep her husband from finding out that their kid isn't his. Compromise. But you drop a hint or two to the husband. Nothing definitive, just enough to worry him and gnaw at his ego. Now you've got both of them. Simple.
Any questions? Good. For homework, we're going to convince 5 people to do something naughty, Not evil, not harmful, nothing time-consuming. Just convince five ordinary folks to do something devilish today. And remember to smile, kid! You've got the best job in the world!"
There are two types of corruption: Gradual corruption, Sudden corruption, and Tempted corruption. Use which is more appropriate.
Know your players' alignment, personality traits, bonds, and especially their flaws. Fiendish corruption is changing a character's alignment to evil.
Gradual corruption is the works of manipulation. Instead of sudden corruption which is a mistake related to a trait or flaw, gradual corruption is repetitive and consistent appeal to a specific flaw. A succubus would appeal to lust. Another demon could appeal to paranoia. Pride, gluttony, sloth, etc. Scenarios will continue coming up that tempts a PC. It will eventually take a toll on their alignment. Finally, introduce one final event: the ultimate test. Should they fail, their soul belongs to the fiend. If they succeed, c h a r a c t e r d e v e l o p e m e n t. (A PC's flaw is repeatedly tempted by a fiend. If this happens to many times, they are corrupted.)
Sudden corruption often comes in a surge of passion. Something that could hurt their character emotionally, or challenge their ideals and moral perspective is a perfect situation. A paladin takes the road of vengeance & slaughter. A rogue betrays a deep trust. A barbarian gets too invested in their rage. When a player makes a choice that leaves the entire table speechless, then is your time to strike. Have a fiend convince the PC that they did the right thing... that they were justified.... If the player fails to make amends to themself, their god, their morals, or those they have hurt, they have been successfully corrupted. If the PC doesn't apologize, this vengeful energy can continue to build up. (A PC makes a sinful act committed without recompense, weight of their sins begin to drag them down.)
Tempted corruption is incentivized. While gradual corruption occurs without the knowledge of the PC, this corruption is completely open. A fiend offers riches or power in exchange for service or souls. This is the corruption used on cultists, warlocks, etc. It is affective, straightforward, and has great potential: Try appealing to the specific interests of a PC: the revival of a murdered family member. respect from family. a cool sword. It will make the world feel more immersive. There are no specific rules. (A PC makes a contract with a fiend, their soul or service in exchange for a deep desire.)
Okay, I have an imp familiar who has risen to the level of DMPC almost. He's served a couple different warlocks in my game and he always encourages them to make friends with the highborn and powerful. He likes to tell his rookies the following:
"Hell - we do a volume business, see? Getting a nice shiny soul is good for the resume, but there's still the War Against Chaos to win. So the way we're evolving is to take all those tricks and snares we used to set out in front of the most noble and righteous, and instead, we throw them in front of the people we need to corrupt a whole society. If you can turn an entire nation evil, if you can convince them to go out and hang and murder and terrorize their neighbors; murder innocent women and children in the name of 'civilization' or 'tradition' or 'honor' - whole generations are born not knowing which way is up. They'll lie, cheat, and steal to keep the status quo in place. You don't have to do nothing! They're born, they die, and they fall right into the engines and they never stood a chance. Truth is, you could tell them to their face and they wouldn't believe you. If you took them out of our cages, they'd fight to the death to try to get back in. It's sincerely the most beautiful sight in the universe. A human face seeking out a boot, forever.
But what are these techniques? Well, suppose I told you that you can convince humans that if enough of them do the wrong thing...they'll start believing that it's the right thing?! What if I told you that once our team controls the levers of power, you can get them to believe that injustice and cruelty isn't ANYONE'S FAULT AT ALL??? That's it's just part of the natural order of things? Imagine what they'd let themselves get away with then?!
But this is advanced stuff. For right now, we're going to concentrate on the basics. There are four basic avenues to corrupt a human: 1) Money; 2) Ideology; 3) Compromise; and 4) Ego. We use the acronym MICE, to help us remember. Bright kids like you normally ask: Where's sex? The truth is, sex isn't, on its own, much value. The kind of people who switch teams over sex aren't usually worth having. Leave the penny-ante business for the succu-boys and girls. Where sex is useful is where it overlaps with the Big Four.
Money sounds crass, but for mortals, it's not just shiny bits of metal, it's a path that leads them to safety and comfort, it's a way to get the thing they actually want. What is it they actually want? Sadly, they often don't know. They often lack a sense of identity and purpose. That's where guys like us come in. We provide the purpose that they didn't know they lacked. We don't just hand them the money, we take the time to really listen, and understand what they really want out of life. Then we shift over to dangling that specific thing in front of them.
Ideology breeds conflicts with the established order, which by its nature, demands compromise. The more ideological a person is, the less likely it is that they're satisfied with the world as it is today. You can flip these people slowly, usually by approaching them through a cutout they trust. Keep them out of the main fight, the one they're spoiling to get in and instead get them angry at their chain of command. It's a great way to disrupt the system.
Compromise is my personal favorite. Everybody keeps secrets. Everybody has a secret that's so important they'll hurt themselves to keep from acknowledging it, let alone what they'd do to others. You just have to watch quietly until they show you what it is. And then you offer to help them protect their secret, like a pal. Simple as that. I'll give you a case study. Down in Scumtown there is a little red church. In the courtyard around back there's a nun, probably there right now, giving free shaves and haircuts to bums or something. Go find her; smack her right across the eyes; and you will be in a sword fight with the baddest-ass sword fighter I've ever ever seen. Home office would send the Third Legion after her, but they'd come back in one big body bag and no one could tell which part went with who. But I'm gonna get her. She's my ticket to the big leagues. She's my masterpiece. Because I know two things she doesn't know. The first is that she sneaks chocolate. She carries a bar of chocolate around with her and snacks on it during the day, but never when anyone else can see her. That doesn't sound like much but wait till you hear the second part. You have to look really slowly to notice, but she's stopped aging. That's me, too. Last time she was trapped in hell, I filled out a few forms, misfiled a few others and she was unwittingly granted a Diabolic Charm of Agelessness. Why? Because sneaking chocolate doesn't sound like much, but give me 200 years to work, and I can build it into her breaking her oath. I guarantee that. That's why you picked the winning team, kid. Gravity Always Wins. Sooner or later, everything falls. We're just ahead of the curve.
Ego works best when you keep your client off-balance. The problem with human ego is it's capable of almost infinite growth and if you let them, they start to forget who their friends are. So you have to arrange first, that their ego gets wounded by someone else, and second, that you can give them a chance at payback.
Once you learn these basic techniques you can start combining them. A wife would do anything to keep her husband from finding out that their kid isn't his. Compromise. But you drop a hint or two to the husband. Nothing definitive, just enough to worry him and gnaw at his ego. Now you've got both of them. Simple.
Any questions? Good. For homework, we're going to convince 5 people to do something naughty, Not evil, not harmful, nothing time-consuming. Just convince five ordinary folks to do something devilish today. And remember to smile, kid! You've got the best job in the world!"
Thank you everyone for you responses. :D
I really like these explanations. Thank you for your help. :)
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Hello. Soon-to-be-first-time Dungeon Master Naturelull here.
I was wondering about the how devils get the souls of mortals.
Currently I know that "Most of the evil souls confined to an afterlife in the Nine Hells become lemures" and "... a devil signs a contract that pledges a mortal's soul to the Nine Hells" in terms of souls.
But giving your soul to the Nine Hells means an afterlife of fighting in the Blood War. So devils like to bend a person's alignment towards evil so they are "confined to an afterlife in the Nine Hells". But how would a devil do this? It wouldn't be hard for a devil to make a deal that results in the person ending up a lemure, and it is far more beneficial for a devil to confine "A stronger soul, such as a mighty warrior who leaves mortality behind to become an ice devil". So how does a devil bend such a person to evil if they aren't already? How can a contract change (or rather break) someone's moral judgement?
And then there is demons. What does a demon do with souls? Do such souls become demons, and that's how new demons spawn and I just missed something?
And do all the demon lords participate in the Blood War?
Baphomet and Demogorgon are perfectly suited to front-lining the Blood War, but Graz'zt in particular doesn't seem to suit the Blood War. So what does Graz'zt want from cultists?
And why doesn't Demogorgon and Zariel just fight to the death?
Why can't the Demon Lords just swarm Avernus?
Why is Geryon on Stygia instead of on the front lines? I feel like Asmodeus is just wasting a potent force on infighting.
Do any of these questions even have answers?
But ya mostly interested in the first question about devil contracts.
For your first question, it doesn't turn them to evil. Devils wouldn't make a contract with someone who's already LE, that would defeat the purpose. Part of the contract is that the souls go to the Nine Hells after death.
What do demons do with souls? It depends on the demon. CE souls become demons when they die. Not all of the demon lords take part in the Blood War, keep in mind that they also fight each other. Graz'zt wants what every demon wants- more power. More cultists = more minions = bigger army = more power.
Demogorgon cannot permanently die while in the Nine Hells, so I presume Zariel might've killed him multiple times. The demons try to swarm Avernus, but the devils are better tacticians, and the demons have too much infighting to actually win with overwhelming force. Geryon is on Stygia because of infernal politics. He's trying to get the throne of Levistus- but he can't do that if he's way up in Avernus.
All stars fade. Some stars forever fall.
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Homebrew (Mostly Outdated): Magic Items, Monsters, Spells, Subclasses
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If there was no light, people wouldn't fear the dark.
Naturelull, have your read Mordenkanian's Tome of Foes? It's chapter on the Blood War and the Abyss and Nine Hells does give you what the principals (Arch Devils and Demon Lords) have in terms of long game motivations. The Blood War doesn't have simple solution because it's supposed to be an intractable endless war (some may say by design).
For "how do Devils corrupt," since we're talking about morality, which can be a subjective thing and WotC doesn't want to impose its on its player base they keep out of the moral calculus game of what is evil for the most part outside of broad brush strokes so how a Infernal would corrupt a mortal soul is up to the DM. Which is cool because there is SO. MUCH. LITERATURE AND LORE. on this subject from real literary and artistic traditions that inspires the D&D hellscape. Check out Milton's Paradise Lost, or cliff notes as it's a slog if you're not up to read lit from that period, to get a poetic take on the story of the fall of Satan (which is very much the story of Asmodeus) and the whole why mess around with human souls. Marlowe's Doktor Faustus is more readable and gives you a sense of how a Devil could corrupt a being through the being's ambitions. if you like, read Goethe's as well, it's longer but that gives you more material. C.S. Lewis' Screwtape Letters have a more conscious theological bent, but also give a morbidly delightful look into how "the business of Hell" is despair inducing bureaucracy, and how that machinery works industriously to corrupt everyday souls in every day life. My favorite contemporary take comes from the 90s TV Show Millennium, who did a sort of 4th wall breaking episode called "Somehow, the Devil Got Behind Me" arguably one of the best episodes of genre tv ever made, its punchline here (added punchline, the donut shopkeep urinated in the last Devil's coffee (that's evil, right?), hence the revelation at the end):
So Devil's are all about the seduction of evil, and the contracts are basically the symbol of how that seduction literally binds you to furthering your way down evil's path.
Demons are ravagers. They just take and break. Devils have a grand design they commit themselves too, Demons coalescences of obliteration. Hell is oppression the Abyss is just destruction. In my game, the Abyss in many ways sees itself as at war with coherent reality. My favorite Demon Lord Fraz Urb'luu is described as the lord of deception and lies, but sees itself more as a Lord of "the truth" or revelation that there is not truth or reality, and proves his point by breaking it as much as possible. There's a Jesse Venture speech from the X-Files I use to warm myself up with Fraz Urb'luu is in play:
RP tip: professional wrestlers make great speech pattern templates for Demon Lords, politicians work well for Devils.
I make the distinction quickly at my table by telling my players "Devils will deal for souls, though rarely will they do so from anything but maximum leverage. Demons take souls with overwhelming force. A Devil shows you the doors to Hell, A Demon runs through you and what's left of you falls into the Abyss."
While there's a lot of prior edition lore out there, the way the outer planes are presented in 5e gives the DM and players a lot of space to develop metaphysical and philosophical speculation on morality (what's good and evil and why there's a difference of valuation in the first place) and metaphysics (what are souls and why are there souls?). They're not essential considerations to playing the game, but my table has fun with the ideas.
There's also The Rolling Stones "Sympathy for the Devil" who basically argues the Devil is always around, somewhere in the crowd, when humanity takes a bad turn. Good persona model for a jaded infernal.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Thank you for your response. :)
I don't quite understand the first part though.
Yes I know a devil wouldn't bother making a contract with someone already Lawful Evil.
But from what I understand, people are very unlikely to blatantly just give their soul to the Nine Hells. Hence a Devil would try to corrupt their morality.
Also I know Geryon is on Stygia because of politics and he wants to take over Levistus. But why does Asmodeus care? Why doesn't Asmodeus just put Geryon on Avernus anyway?
Again thank you for your response. :)
I appreciate the help. :)
There are two types of corruption: Gradual corruption, Sudden corruption, and Tempted corruption. Use which is more appropriate.
Know your players' alignment, personality traits, bonds, and especially their flaws. Fiendish corruption is changing a character's alignment to evil.
Gradual corruption is the works of manipulation. Instead of sudden corruption which is a mistake related to a trait or flaw, gradual corruption is repetitive and consistent appeal to a specific flaw. A succubus would appeal to lust. Another demon could appeal to paranoia. Pride, gluttony, sloth, etc. Scenarios will continue coming up that tempts a PC. It will eventually take a toll on their alignment. Finally, introduce one final event: the ultimate test. Should they fail, their soul belongs to the fiend. If they succeed, c h a r a c t e r d e v e l o p e m e n t. (A PC's flaw is repeatedly tempted by a fiend. If this happens to many times, they are corrupted.)
Sudden corruption often comes in a surge of passion. Something that could hurt their character emotionally, or challenge their ideals and moral perspective is a perfect situation. A paladin takes the road of vengeance & slaughter. A rogue betrays a deep trust. A barbarian gets too invested in their rage. When a player makes a choice that leaves the entire table speechless, then is your time to strike. Have a fiend convince the PC that they did the right thing... that they were justified.... If the player fails to make amends to themself, their god, their morals, or those they have hurt, they have been successfully corrupted. If the PC doesn't apologize, this vengeful energy can continue to build up. (A PC makes a sinful act committed without recompense, weight of their sins begin to drag them down.)
Tempted corruption is incentivized. While gradual corruption occurs without the knowledge of the PC, this corruption is completely open. A fiend offers riches or power in exchange for service or souls. This is the corruption used on cultists, warlocks, etc. It is affective, straightforward, and has great potential: Try appealing to the specific interests of a PC: the revival of a murdered family member. respect from family. a cool sword. It will make the world feel more immersive. There are no specific rules. (A PC makes a contract with a fiend, their soul or service in exchange for a deep desire.)
My only good homebrews: Races, Subclasses.
An aspiring DM and Homebrewer. Ask me if you need anything.
Okay, I have an imp familiar who has risen to the level of DMPC almost. He's served a couple different warlocks in my game and he always encourages them to make friends with the highborn and powerful. He likes to tell his rookies the following:
"Hell - we do a volume business, see? Getting a nice shiny soul is good for the resume, but there's still the War Against Chaos to win. So the way we're evolving is to take all those tricks and snares we used to set out in front of the most noble and righteous, and instead, we throw them in front of the people we need to corrupt a whole society. If you can turn an entire nation evil, if you can convince them to go out and hang and murder and terrorize their neighbors; murder innocent women and children in the name of 'civilization' or 'tradition' or 'honor' - whole generations are born not knowing which way is up. They'll lie, cheat, and steal to keep the status quo in place. You don't have to do nothing! They're born, they die, and they fall right into the engines and they never stood a chance. Truth is, you could tell them to their face and they wouldn't believe you. If you took them out of our cages, they'd fight to the death to try to get back in. It's sincerely the most beautiful sight in the universe. A human face seeking out a boot, forever.
But what are these techniques? Well, suppose I told you that you can convince humans that if enough of them do the wrong thing...they'll start believing that it's the right thing?! What if I told you that once our team controls the levers of power, you can get them to believe that injustice and cruelty isn't ANYONE'S FAULT AT ALL??? That's it's just part of the natural order of things? Imagine what they'd let themselves get away with then?!
But this is advanced stuff. For right now, we're going to concentrate on the basics. There are four basic avenues to corrupt a human: 1) Money; 2) Ideology; 3) Compromise; and 4) Ego. We use the acronym MICE, to help us remember. Bright kids like you normally ask: Where's sex? The truth is, sex isn't, on its own, much value. The kind of people who switch teams over sex aren't usually worth having. Leave the penny-ante business for the succu-boys and girls. Where sex is useful is where it overlaps with the Big Four.
Money sounds crass, but for mortals, it's not just shiny bits of metal, it's a path that leads them to safety and comfort, it's a way to get the thing they actually want. What is it they actually want? Sadly, they often don't know. They often lack a sense of identity and purpose. That's where guys like us come in. We provide the purpose that they didn't know they lacked. We don't just hand them the money, we take the time to really listen, and understand what they really want out of life. Then we shift over to dangling that specific thing in front of them.
Ideology breeds conflicts with the established order, which by its nature, demands compromise. The more ideological a person is, the less likely it is that they're satisfied with the world as it is today. You can flip these people slowly, usually by approaching them through a cutout they trust. Keep them out of the main fight, the one they're spoiling to get in and instead get them angry at their chain of command. It's a great way to disrupt the system.
Compromise is my personal favorite. Everybody keeps secrets. Everybody has a secret that's so important they'll hurt themselves to keep from acknowledging it, let alone what they'd do to others. You just have to watch quietly until they show you what it is. And then you offer to help them protect their secret, like a pal. Simple as that. I'll give you a case study. Down in Scumtown there is a little red church. In the courtyard around back there's a nun, probably there right now, giving free shaves and haircuts to bums or something. Go find her; smack her right across the eyes; and you will be in a sword fight with the baddest-ass sword fighter I've ever ever seen. Home office would send the Third Legion after her, but they'd come back in one big body bag and no one could tell which part went with who. But I'm gonna get her. She's my ticket to the big leagues. She's my masterpiece. Because I know two things she doesn't know. The first is that she sneaks chocolate. She carries a bar of chocolate around with her and snacks on it during the day, but never when anyone else can see her. That doesn't sound like much but wait till you hear the second part. You have to look really slowly to notice, but she's stopped aging. That's me, too. Last time she was trapped in hell, I filled out a few forms, misfiled a few others and she was unwittingly granted a Diabolic Charm of Agelessness. Why? Because sneaking chocolate doesn't sound like much, but give me 200 years to work, and I can build it into her breaking her oath. I guarantee that. That's why you picked the winning team, kid. Gravity Always Wins. Sooner or later, everything falls. We're just ahead of the curve.
Ego works best when you keep your client off-balance. The problem with human ego is it's capable of almost infinite growth and if you let them, they start to forget who their friends are. So you have to arrange first, that their ego gets wounded by someone else, and second, that you can give them a chance at payback.
Once you learn these basic techniques you can start combining them. A wife would do anything to keep her husband from finding out that their kid isn't his. Compromise. But you drop a hint or two to the husband. Nothing definitive, just enough to worry him and gnaw at his ego. Now you've got both of them. Simple.
Any questions? Good. For homework, we're going to convince 5 people to do something naughty, Not evil, not harmful, nothing time-consuming. Just convince five ordinary folks to do something devilish today. And remember to smile, kid! You've got the best job in the world!"
Thank you everyone for you responses. :D
I really like these explanations.
Thank you for your help. :)