Check out the spelljammer setting for Ad&D2e, it's literally just D&D in space. In fact, the new Baulder's Gate game trailer features an illithid ship that was found in Spelljammer, though there's probably not going to be space travel unfortunately
The astral plane is the plane of thought and dream, per the DMG's description of it. It has nothing to do with space stuff. Neither do things "Celestial" in the official cosmology (though in my game there is a relationship between _some_ stars and celestial entities).
Spelljammer, roughly, posits most D&D worlds on the Prime Material plane are planets with an atmosphere, beyond that atmosphere is sort of "space" but the world's solar system is contained within a crystal sphere. Those sphere protect the contents of the crystal sphere from the phlogiston that makes up the rest of the universe, a highly combustible and sort of chaotic substance but also sort of inert in that souls get trapped there unable to progress to another plane of existence if they die.
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Original D&D (3 Little Brown Books) Book 3: The Underworld & Wilderness Adventures had Mars as one of the adventuring locales, with its own random encounter table, including encounters with Tharks, Red Martians, Apts, Banths, Sith (large insects, maybe where George Lucas got the name from) and such right out of Edgar Rice Burroughs' Barsoom novel series (A Princess of Mars, etc).
From Book 3
OTHER WORLDS: There should be no “natural laws” which are certain. Space could be passable because it is filled with breathable air. On the other hand the stars could be tiny lights only a few hundred miles away. Some areas of land could be gates into other worlds, dimensions, times, or whatever. Mars is given in these rules, but some other fantastic world or setting could be equally as possible. This function is up to the referee, and what he wishes to do with it is necessarily limited by his other campaign work. However, this factor can be gradually added, so that no sudden burden will be placed upon the referee.
There was already a spaceship (and outerspace) given in Supplement 2: Blackmoor since The Temple of the Frog is run by a group of crashed space scientists (later given as the SS Beagle) who use the crazy cultists to do genetic experiments to extend their power.
Now, of course, later on, real-world space did exist in AD&D because there is a crashed starship in the form of the "dungeon" in S3: Expedition to the Barrier Peaks, with all its strange flora and fauna.
One or all versions of this could be true. Maybe "Spelljammer Space" is true where the stars are mere lights hundreds/thousands of miles away and you can travel to the Moon and/or Mars (Barsoom/Athas) and adventure there to fight the Moon Men and/or Tharks & Martians...but "Real Space" also exists where you have to survive the hard vacuum with some sort of advanced magic and/or technology.
I want Brooklyn to deal with the other half of the question. Clearly "Astral" and "outer space" have never really been one in the same in D&D (though it seems in 5e there are occasional players over interpreting the "astra" in "Astral"). I want a lore exegesis on the astral plane _and_ if there's any entanglement between the stellar and the celestial (given that high level angels are called Planetars and Solars, etc.).
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
I can give you a brief "exegesis." The astral plane is the border world between the inner planes (the prime material, shadowfell and feywild, and the elemental planes) and the first layers of the outer planes. Think of it as more of an ocean (which is extra fitting because it's also called the astral sea), with continents on the other side, than a vast vaccuum with a bunch of things in it. As it stands, the spelljammer setting, which I've discussed above, spelljammer is "space" in D&D. Special ships go away from the planets, called crystal spheres, and can travel to other planets with different gods or magic or what not, but that hasn't really been supported since 2e. To answer the second part of your question, no, there is no relation between angels and space, it just seems to be a naming motif. But remember, this is all up to your interpretation. In your world, maybe planetars and solars are from space, and they're called such because they can destroy planets and stars, or carry all the life force of a planet or star. Maybe in your world the astral plane is "space" and each plane just kind of sits in it. Maybe your world doesn't have an astral plane, or angels, and just has space. It's up to you, and the best way to make up your mind in that is to sit down and start writing it up.
Thanks, but I get Spelljammer as well as the astral/ethereal multiverse. I was asking for one of Brooklyn's deep lore cuts, because sometimes when he drops them they're actually pretty entertaining, for me and I imagine other lore heads.
I get world building. In my game world, some stars are actually tied to Celestial entities. Functionally they're hope incarnate, which is why in my game stars can't be seen in the lower planes (aside from a potential in game miracle if the players help deliver it). That said, let's be clear when I say _some_ stars function in that way. Some lights in the sky are more literally "awesome" (tied to forces of the Celestial and Upper planes beyond humanoid comprehension), and many many are tied to much more frightening things, sort of literalizing the poetic notion of stars being pinholes of light with the stars being marks of the Far Realm breaking in. In my game's cosmos, some stellar phenomena is the penetration of the Far Realm ... largely responsible for the feelings of despair and isolation some feel evoked in the night sky (you know, that Lovecraftian thing that's also driving the feel in The Thing WotC talked up with RotF that's really not there aside from concept art for the Cold Light Wanderer thing). Other phenomena such as black holes are more advanced sites of Far Realm incursion where the expedition has gone from penetrative to extractive. Key plot hook, when Far Realm entities are interrogated, they often drop the quip "we're not invasive, this universe was never invited." Some PCs have an idea this is all going on, but really can't do anything about it without some seriously high powered assistance. Those PCs and players who don't grok it, sort of shrug thinking this is stuff Fraz-Urb'luu was getting at when he word for word reproduced Jesse Venture's monologue from the X Files episode, "Jose Chung's Tales from Outer Space" (wearing the hat):
Now I'm thinking of a Bard College of Stars with stellar based inspiration (was there one in UA?), or at least two high level NPC members of said college named Sagan and Tyson.
I'll also say none of this is so much original world building so much as a mash up of actual lore with different mythologies and fictions.
I want Brooklyn to deal with the other half of the question. Clearly "Astral" and "outer space" have never really been one in the same in D&D (though it seems in 5e there are occasional players over interpreting the "astra" in "Astral"). I want a lore exegesis on the astral plane _and_ if there's any entanglement between the stellar and the celestial (given that high level angels are called Planetars and Solars, etc.).
As far as I can tell, no, Astral Space and Outer Space are different according to Original D&D. The Astral Plane was one of those "The DM decides what it is, assuming they let their players go there". Now, according to Supplement 4 - Gods, Demigods & Heroes, the Egyptian god Ptah is God of Outerspace, "Opener of the Way" and that "he can force beings into a nameless void with a look of his eyes".
In AD&D's World of Greyhawk, there is the lesser god Celestian the Far Wanderer (of the Oeridian pantheon) who has spheres related to Stars, Space and Wandering. According to Dragon Magazine #68 he has a number of special powers including the ability to throw a Comet, Meteors, and induce Space Chill. He can travel Astrally and he can Gate in Astral Devas (more under starry skies). I believe that in the Spelljammer setting, Celestian is mentioned (could be Rock of Bral, not sure).
In all honesty, I think all versions of "space" are true in D&D: Spelljammer/Barsoom Space (with its breathable atmospheres where you can go fight Moon Men or Martians), true Outer Space (where the SS Beagle, Starship Warden and so forth exist) and then Ethereal & Astral Space. Maybe rule that "Spelljammer Space" can only be accessed with a Spelljammer or the like (maybe craft a spell allowing it). Real Space is forever out of reach of most characters simply because they're not divine and have no way other than to hitch a ride with an actual spaceship and/or divinity and then hold on for dear life!
Fun fact, the Gate spell in OD&D says this: Employment of this spell opens a cosmic portal and allows an ultra-powerful being (such as Odin, Crom, Set, Cthulhu, the Shining One, a demi-god, or whatever) to come to this plane. It is recommended that the user of this spell have a highly valid reason for summoning such aid. The name of the being desired must be called when the spell is cast. There is a 95% chance that the called being will come, 5% chance for some other being coming instead. There is also a 5% chance that whatever shows up will simplyreturn immediately after observing the situation. - Supplement I: Greyhawk
is space in dnd the astral plane or are they completely different and if they are different then what is the astral plane
The Astral plane is metaphysical space. Or something like that. Space is Space.
I have a weird sense of humor.
I also make maps.(That's a link)
Check out the spelljammer setting for Ad&D2e, it's literally just D&D in space. In fact, the new Baulder's Gate game trailer features an illithid ship that was found in Spelljammer, though there's probably not going to be space travel unfortunately
The astral plane is the plane of thought and dream, per the DMG's description of it. It has nothing to do with space stuff. Neither do things "Celestial" in the official cosmology (though in my game there is a relationship between _some_ stars and celestial entities).
Spelljammer, roughly, posits most D&D worlds on the Prime Material plane are planets with an atmosphere, beyond that atmosphere is sort of "space" but the world's solar system is contained within a crystal sphere. Those sphere protect the contents of the crystal sphere from the phlogiston that makes up the rest of the universe, a highly combustible and sort of chaotic substance but also sort of inert in that souls get trapped there unable to progress to another plane of existence if they die.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Original D&D (3 Little Brown Books) Book 3: The Underworld & Wilderness Adventures had Mars as one of the adventuring locales, with its own random encounter table, including encounters with Tharks, Red Martians, Apts, Banths, Sith (large insects, maybe where George Lucas got the name from) and such right out of Edgar Rice Burroughs' Barsoom novel series (A Princess of Mars, etc).
From Book 3
OTHER WORLDS: There should be no “natural laws” which are certain. Space could be passable because it is filled with breathable air. On the other hand the stars could be tiny lights only a few hundred miles away. Some areas of land could be gates into other worlds, dimensions, times, or whatever. Mars is given in these rules, but some other fantastic world or setting could be equally as possible. This function is up to the referee, and what he wishes to do with it is necessarily limited by his other campaign work. However, this factor can be gradually added, so that no sudden burden will be placed upon the referee.
There was already a spaceship (and outerspace) given in Supplement 2: Blackmoor since The Temple of the Frog is run by a group of crashed space scientists (later given as the SS Beagle) who use the crazy cultists to do genetic experiments to extend their power.
Now, of course, later on, real-world space did exist in AD&D because there is a crashed starship in the form of the "dungeon" in S3: Expedition to the Barrier Peaks, with all its strange flora and fauna.
One or all versions of this could be true. Maybe "Spelljammer Space" is true where the stars are mere lights hundreds/thousands of miles away and you can travel to the Moon and/or Mars (Barsoom/Athas) and adventure there to fight the Moon Men and/or Tharks & Martians...but "Real Space" also exists where you have to survive the hard vacuum with some sort of advanced magic and/or technology.
I want Brooklyn to deal with the other half of the question. Clearly "Astral" and "outer space" have never really been one in the same in D&D (though it seems in 5e there are occasional players over interpreting the "astra" in "Astral"). I want a lore exegesis on the astral plane _and_ if there's any entanglement between the stellar and the celestial (given that high level angels are called Planetars and Solars, etc.).
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
I can give you a brief "exegesis." The astral plane is the border world between the inner planes (the prime material, shadowfell and feywild, and the elemental planes) and the first layers of the outer planes. Think of it as more of an ocean (which is extra fitting because it's also called the astral sea), with continents on the other side, than a vast vaccuum with a bunch of things in it. As it stands, the spelljammer setting, which I've discussed above, spelljammer is "space" in D&D. Special ships go away from the planets, called crystal spheres, and can travel to other planets with different gods or magic or what not, but that hasn't really been supported since 2e. To answer the second part of your question, no, there is no relation between angels and space, it just seems to be a naming motif. But remember, this is all up to your interpretation. In your world, maybe planetars and solars are from space, and they're called such because they can destroy planets and stars, or carry all the life force of a planet or star. Maybe in your world the astral plane is "space" and each plane just kind of sits in it. Maybe your world doesn't have an astral plane, or angels, and just has space. It's up to you, and the best way to make up your mind in that is to sit down and start writing it up.
Thanks, but I get Spelljammer as well as the astral/ethereal multiverse. I was asking for one of Brooklyn's deep lore cuts, because sometimes when he drops them they're actually pretty entertaining, for me and I imagine other lore heads.
I get world building. In my game world, some stars are actually tied to Celestial entities. Functionally they're hope incarnate, which is why in my game stars can't be seen in the lower planes (aside from a potential in game miracle if the players help deliver it). That said, let's be clear when I say _some_ stars function in that way. Some lights in the sky are more literally "awesome" (tied to forces of the Celestial and Upper planes beyond humanoid comprehension), and many many are tied to much more frightening things, sort of literalizing the poetic notion of stars being pinholes of light with the stars being marks of the Far Realm breaking in. In my game's cosmos, some stellar phenomena is the penetration of the Far Realm ... largely responsible for the feelings of despair and isolation some feel evoked in the night sky (you know, that Lovecraftian thing that's also driving the feel in The Thing WotC talked up with RotF that's really not there aside from concept art for the Cold Light Wanderer thing). Other phenomena such as black holes are more advanced sites of Far Realm incursion where the expedition has gone from penetrative to extractive. Key plot hook, when Far Realm entities are interrogated, they often drop the quip "we're not invasive, this universe was never invited." Some PCs have an idea this is all going on, but really can't do anything about it without some seriously high powered assistance. Those PCs and players who don't grok it, sort of shrug thinking this is stuff Fraz-Urb'luu was getting at when he word for word reproduced Jesse Venture's monologue from the X Files episode, "Jose Chung's Tales from Outer Space" (wearing the hat):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1K5Y1ZOZw8
Also the episode with the line about Dungeons and Dragons teaching it's players "a little something about courage."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHh6r3IUmJY
Now I'm thinking of a Bard College of Stars with stellar based inspiration (was there one in UA?), or at least two high level NPC members of said college named Sagan and Tyson.
I'll also say none of this is so much original world building so much as a mash up of actual lore with different mythologies and fictions.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
As far as I can tell, no, Astral Space and Outer Space are different according to Original D&D. The Astral Plane was one of those "The DM decides what it is, assuming they let their players go there".
Now, according to Supplement 4 - Gods, Demigods & Heroes, the Egyptian god Ptah is God of Outerspace, "Opener of the Way" and that "he can force beings into a nameless void with a look of his eyes".
In AD&D's World of Greyhawk, there is the lesser god Celestian the Far Wanderer (of the Oeridian pantheon) who has spheres related to Stars, Space and Wandering. According to Dragon Magazine #68 he has a number of special powers including the ability to throw a Comet, Meteors, and induce Space Chill. He can travel Astrally and he can Gate in Astral Devas (more under starry skies). I believe that in the Spelljammer setting, Celestian is mentioned (could be Rock of Bral, not sure).
In all honesty, I think all versions of "space" are true in D&D: Spelljammer/Barsoom Space (with its breathable atmospheres where you can go fight Moon Men or Martians), true Outer Space (where the SS Beagle, Starship Warden and so forth exist) and then Ethereal & Astral Space. Maybe rule that "Spelljammer Space" can only be accessed with a Spelljammer or the like (maybe craft a spell allowing it). Real Space is forever out of reach of most characters simply because they're not divine and have no way other than to hitch a ride with an actual spaceship and/or divinity and then hold on for dear life!
Fun fact, the Gate spell in OD&D says this: Employment of this spell opens a cosmic portal and allows an ultra-powerful being (such as Odin, Crom, Set, Cthulhu, the Shining One, a demi-god, or whatever) to come to this plane. It is recommended that the user of this spell have a highly valid reason for summoning such aid. The name of the being desired must be called when the spell is cast. There is a 95% chance that the called being will come, 5% chance for some other being coming instead. There is also a 5% chance that whatever shows up will simply return immediately after observing the situation. - Supplement I: Greyhawk