Hello, I have a question about the travel to other worlds.
Various scholars speak of a primordial state, a single reality they call the First World, which preceded the multiverse as we know it. Many of the peoples and monsters that inhabit the worlds in the Material Plane originated there.
1/ The First World, is it similar to the First World from Golarion ?
Transit between these worlds is rare but not impossible and can be accomplished in various ways. One such method is called the Great Journey, an epic voyage fraught with peril and littered with obstacles to be overcome. This journey most often occurs aboard a vessel powered by magic.
2/ Is it a vessel as those for the illithids ?
Another method is the Dream of Other Worlds; travelers fall into a deep slumber and dream themselves into a new realm. The spell dream of the blue veil employs this method of transit.
To cast this spell, you must have a magic item that originated on the world you wish to reach, and you must be aware of the world's existence, even if you don't know the world's name.
3/ What is aware of the world's existence ? Just to know the others worlds ? How do you obtain a magic item that originated on the other world ?
4/ How is it possible for the method in below ? Do the character have already visit the world ?
The most direct method is the Leap to Another Realm; a spellcaster casts teleportation circle or teleport, aiming to appear in a known teleportation circle or some other location in another world.
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(Davyd):
Threads regarding the lore of settings belong in Stories and Lore
Apparently, there are also a 5th method with Baba Yaga's Mortar and Pestle.
Bones Know Their Home. When you command the mortar to travel, you can instead throw out the dust or paste of something ground by the mortar and name a location on a different plane of existence or a different world on the Material Plane. If that material came from a creature native to the named plane or world, the mortar travels through an empty night sky to an unoccupied space at that destination, arriving in 1 minute.
5/The problem is to obtain the dust or paste from creature native to the named world.
3) This is a plot device. The DM either gives you something explicitly, or you will never find something from another world. This isn't something that a player can do on their own.
4) As above, it's a plot device. The DM either gives you the "knowledge", or you don't get it.
My guess is this is a meta reference to either real life or Tolkien's Middle earth, and is referring to how the various worlds of D&D draw inspiration from them. There is also lore that suggests humans and animals from our earth traveled to Toril in ancient times and are the ancestors of humans and animals in D&D, it is also how some gods from IRL religions got there.
Most likely talking about spelljammer, yes.
a) You, the caster, have to be aware. Like being aware of another country even though you've never been there and don't know it's name. b)? c) Maybe something brought it from there. How do you have technology made in China?
Other spells, other rules. Some work better if you have been there, others just need information like a magic address, some need an item from there, or others can go if there is someone there you know.
Am I missing something? Isn't the fundamental method of moving between planes of existence the level 7 Plane Shift spell - though since you need an item attuned to the plane you intend to travel to (or a teleportation circle address) which implies that there are other mechanisms available to allow travel without prior knowledge.
However, the teleportation spells specifically do not allow transport between planes of existence.
Teleport: "The destination you choose must be known to you, and it must be on the same plane of existence as you"
Teleportation circle: "As you cast the spell, you draw a 10-foot-diameter circle on the ground inscribed with sigils that link your location to a permanent teleportation circle of your choice whose sigil sequence you know and that is on the same plane of existence as you."
So for transplanar travel even to known teleportation circles you have to use plane shift.
"Alternatively, if you know the sigil sequence of a teleportation circle on another plane of existence, this spell can take you to that circle."
P.S. Unless "plane" means something different than I thought in D&D :)
P.P.S. The Unearthly Roads section in Tasha's on page 169 is another mechanism a DM could use to move groups between "planes" or "worlds" of existence depending on whether alternative realities are distinct from planes of existence.
Am I missing something? Isn't the fundamental method of moving between planes of existence the level 7 Plane Shift spell - though since you need an item attuned to the plane you intend to travel to (or a teleportation circle address) which implies that there are other mechanisms available to allow travel without prior knowledge.
However, the teleportation spells specifically do not allow transport between planes of existence.
[Snip]
P.S. Unless "plane" means something different than I thought in D&D :)
You are correct. But the book is talking about traveling to different realms or spheres, not planes. All realms have a prime material.
Usually aiming a teleport or getting a circle address is nearly impossible due to the caster's lack of knowledge on the destination.
1) My character has access to a very small portion of the Feywild specifically an abandoned temple within the Feywild, but cannot exit the temple grounds within the Feywild due to a curse that bound her there after she was granted sanctuary there by her patron deity.
The curse only allowed her two exits both portals within the Temple grounds one entering the Shadowfell and the other to a Prime Material World.
2) No isn't that the Far Realm or the Astral Sea?
3) Used a portal to the Prime Material World to venture within that world was previously settled on another such world until banished and is now seeking a way back or at least the means to contact the family she left behind there.
4) Its a part of the abandoned temple that she has access to as its home to her Patron Deity and her Refuge.
She could let others enter, but the danger of them wandering outside the temple grounds is so great to those visitors, she has never alllowed anyone other than family members access to the Refuge.
The only exception was one of the three guards posted to the Temple border who accompanied her and her son back to their world before she was banished and he is currently protecting her grandson there following the death of his parents and as far as she knows has no other means of entering the Feywild.
It should be noted when the Temple was moved the two remaining Guards were also caught within the Temple grounds and have no means of contacting their tribe to let them know where the Temple has been moved to.
Dungeons & Dragons was always, technically speaking, built upon "travel between worlds", even when it was still in the prototype stage known as Castles & Crusade Society Map of The Great Kingdom & Environs (which evolved into The Flanaess/Greyhawk). Anytime Lord Robilar and Mordenkainen traveled to the lands of Blackmoor, they were (in effect) traveling to a different world (considering Dave Arneson's home campaign was different from Gygax's and Kuntz's). The same was true when Yrag (another of EGG's characters) adventured in Kalibruhn (Rob Kuntz's campaign setting).
As for how to accomplish it, there were always weird magickal effects and the like that could accomplish that. Sometimes they were tied to a specific place like The Lost City of the Elders/Garden of the Plantmaster which is set in Kalibruhn, but arrived at from a behind waterfall in Greyhawk or The Comeback Inn in Blackmoor that survived the cataclysm that destroyed Thonia. Or maybe a specific event, such as a planetary conjunction, etc.
Edit: If any world is the Primordial World, its the C&CS Domesday Map, considering so much of what is D&D got its beginnings there, from Iggwilv (who is not Tasha, I don't care who retcons what, Gygax created her and he said she was in no way, shape or form related), to Mind Flayers, Drow and so on and so forth.
I know they combined them for this book, but I'd like to know the difference.
I assume you mean Tasha (of the Hideous Laughter), Natasha the Dark and Iggwilv the Witch-Queen of Perrenland. They didn't combine them for 5E, they did it back at the end of 3E and it was stupid then and a needless (and baseless) retcon. The problem started with some people apparently being incapable of seeing 3 separate female wizards and had this nonsensical idea to combine them (for reasons I don't comprehend). However, there are enough clues (besides the fact E. Gary Gygax created 2 of the 3 and point blank said they weren't related) to show them as being 3 separate personages.
- Iggwilv the Witch-Queen of Perrenland was at least a Demigod (if not Lesser Goddess based on her spell ability to grant to followers) in status. The process to gain apotheosis like that takes hundreds of years for mortals to accomplish in the setting where she's from (Oerth/Greyhawk). Based on the Demonomicon of Iggwilv, Iggwilv was at least a Cleric of 16th lvl (by 1E AD&D rules) since she could cast 7th lvl spells (specifically Henley's Digit of Disruption as penned in The Demonomicon) as well as being an Archmage, meaning at least 18th lvl in 1E, according to multiple published sources (backrgound info of S4: The Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth, Tenser the Archmage in WG4: Isle of the Ape, etc). The Lost Caverns were the seat of her power and her realm when she was overthrown nearly a century before CY576, the date of the publishing for The World of Greyhawk Map and Gazetteer by The Savant-Sage (no name given). A little later, Iggwilv's cambion son by Graz'zt became the lord of his own land, named after him: Iuz (the Old, also elevated to Demigod status by some means). He did so with Iggwilv's help around the same time she was overthrown in Perrenland (CY479). According Artifact of Evil (2nd book of the Gord the Rogue series, the first 2 of which were published by TSR), Iggwilv has blonde hair. "Iggwilv shook her head. "Not so fast, my prodigal. Is that any way for a devoted son to speak to his Dear Mother?" Even as she uttered this admonition, the ancient crone, one who had appeared a parody of every child's nightmare of a wicked witch, changed. Her features flowed and changed as her body grew and straightened. Scraggly, gray locks became flowing tresses of hair like spun gold, and face and form matched the radiance of this golden head." Given her golden tresses (and pale skin) I'd guess she's Suel in descent, maybe even an actual Suloise Mage Iggwilv is also known to have at least 1 daughter, the warrior woman Drelnza (Fighter 13th lvl), who was infected with vampirism and was imprisoned by Iggwilv to guard one of her treasure caches (The Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth). There is also a sketch under the Graz'zt entry in S4 showing him battling what appears to be a blonde haired Mage. That is quite likely him battling to gain freedom from Iggwilv. According to Sea of Death (not published by TSR): "The witch was incredibly ancient, older even than old Iuz—in fact, Iggwilv was the mother of the cambion who had designs on all of Oerth. Iggwilv's infamy reached byond Oerth to other worlds that paralleled it and occasionally touched it for a time. Ychbilch she was called on one of those worlds, Louhi on another." (Louhi is basically the Finnish analague to Baba Yaga.)
- Tasha (called The Grinning Mage by some Greyhawk fans) is an unknown quantity since almost nothing is known about her except what can be gleaned from the little that is published: she had a famous spellbook called Lore of Subtle Communication, published in Dragon Magazine #82, which includes the spell named for her (IRL, it was a young lady named Tasha who wrote to Gygax asking for a spell that involved laughter so he created Tasha's Uncontrollable Hideous Laughter where it was published in Dragon Magazine before becoming official in Unearthed Arcana in 1985). Given the fact her spellbook has Legend Lore, a 6th lvl Mage spell, she has to be at least 12th lvl according to 1E AD&D.
- Natasha the Dark was a creation of Roger E. Moore for his adventure The Dancing Hut published in Dragon Magazine #83 where the adventurers enter The Dancing Hut of Baba Yaga (an artifact in Greyhawk that has been there since it was published in Supplement 3: Eldritch Wizardry). Natasha the Dark is a demon-binder (like Iggwilv) but is one of the "daughters" of Baba Yaga (the other being Elena the Fair). Natasha the Dark is a sultry seductress, much like Iggwilv, but has hair that is "smoky dark". Furthermore, the stats given for Natasha the Dark says she's a dual-class 7th lvl Illusionist/15th lvl Mage (meaning she's not only less powerful than Iggwilv, she's not even the same type of dual-classed since Iggwilv was an Archmage 18th/Cleric 16th). Also Natasha the Dark is a daughter of Baba Yaga (who is said at the end of the adventure to be equivalent to a Quasi-Deity of Oerth, so less in stature than a Demigod) and with all her differences cannot BE Iggwilv. Furthermore, Natasha the Dark's spellbook isn't listed so if she was supposed to be Tasha (of the Hideous Laughter), then WHY did it not say she had that spell in her spellbook? That would have been a rather important fact.
The problem started when WotC, without much forethought (in my not so humble opinion) decided to canonize a fan-fiction version of Iggwilv that ignored obvious canon elements, in addition to not even bothering to find out the creators' opinions (E Gary Gygax for Iggwilv and Tasha, Roger E. Moore for Natasha the Dark). This was done at the end of 3rd Edition's product cycle. Never mind that Iggwilv had been given wink-and-a-nod mentions that put her as a Demigod in some D20 products (where she was called The Mother of Witches, which is akin to Baba Yaga's title). Retcons for "reasons" upset the apple cart as it interferes with DM campaigns (the reason why The Greyhawk Wars were for the most part loathed by many Greyhawk fans was no Gygax involvement and cramming a metaplot down the throats of DMs, damn the consequences to their campaigns). There are claims that many people considered Tasha (the Grinning Mage) and Natasha the Dark to be the same person because the spell was published only a year or so before The Dancing Hut. This, to me, is rather idiotic and stretching by some fans. If there HAD been a connection between Iggwilv and Natasha the Dark (other than their relation to Baba Yaga and demon-binding) then the fracking texts would have said so, Gary Gygax and Roger E. Moore would also have said so. Apparently, Greyhawk can only have one Mage called Tasha/Natasha....even though their appellations are different (Natasha is called The Dark, while Tasha has no appellation in canon). It was the aforementioned fan-fiction that made Iggwilv (under the named Tasha) an apprentice (and later adventuring companion) of Zagig Yragerne who himself later became the Demigod of Magic, Zagyg. Now, the only linkage between the 2 comes from the fact in Iggwilv's treasure hoard is a Prison of Zagig for which she also has a command word. However, for her to have been Zagig's apprentice, the timelines don't match! Zagig himself was born somewhere before the founding of Castle Greyhawk, from which he ruled and gained considerable power circa CY375. While we don't know the exact date of the construction according to Gygax (who would have been the final authority on it, considering it was his creation) WGR1: Greyhawk Ruins says it was finished in CY320. That sort of, more or less, fits, but could easily be as late as CY349. Zagig would have the low end age of 26 according to the 1E DMG chart on Human Classes and Ages (assuming he was already a 1st lvl Mage when he began construction, since he was a noble and probably had access to a good deal wealth). Since his power grew until CY375 and he later just disappeared with no visible change or age (so sometime AFTER CY375) that gives him a mortal lifespan of at least 82 years of age (born in CY294 to CY376 if we accept CY320 as the castle's construction). He goes into seclusion and begins to work on attaining divine status, which he won't achieve until circa CY505 when he kidnaps Iuz the Old and the other Demigods he imprisoned beneath Castle Greyhawk. Iggwilv was already a Demigod by the time she had her minions take over the area around her abode and all subject the Marches of Perrenland to her iron fist. The same would be true for Iuz the Old when he rose to power in his land in CY479. That makes them both older than Zagig because they would have had to go through some great trial of sorts to gain divine status (though Iuz would have had a leg up on Zagig given his Half-Demon Lord/Cambion status). If anything, Zagig would have been Iggwilv's apprentice, not the other way around! Instead of having 3 fully fleshed out characters for DMs to put in their campaigns, WotC used someone's fan-fiction history of Iggwilv that (stupidly) combined Iggwilv the Witch-Queen of Perrenland, Tasha (the Grinning Mage) and Natasha the Dark...even though canon elements clearly show that cannot be the case and the creator of Iggwilv (Gygax) flat out said it was wrong.
TL;DR: The backstory WotC has given for Iggwilv doesn't match anything remotely canon, they have retconned too many elements and basically ignored the creator's vision and they don't particularly care whose campaigns (some of which have been long running) they derailed to do so, cause Greyhawk Lore is apparently "not a thing".
I remember Iuz from the 3.0 Greyhawk release and about Zagyg.
Why combine them then?
Could have had Tasha be a former student familiar with Natasha the Dark, my god just mentioning the Iuz part would have made that book more interesting for its links to Greyhawk!
I need to jot this down, some of this will come in very useful!
Maybe Tasha being a conflation or a distinct person from the other lore characters is all a meta plot to allow WotC to drop a "Everything in Tasha's is a lie" hand grenade into the community. It's the first thing PCs encounter upon crossing the Blue Veil into Greyhawk in the first of the 2022 "Year of Greyhawk" hardbacks of a setting book, a crunch book, and two adventures.
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Maybe Tasha being a conflation or a distinct person from the other lore characters is all a meta plot to allow WotC to drop a "Everything in Tasha's is a lie" hand grenade into the community. It's the first thing PCs encounter upon crossing the Blue Veil into Greyhawk in the first of the 2022 "Year of Greyhawk" hardbacks of a setting book, a crunch book, and two adventures.
I do run it that way anyway. Natasha the Dark is currently besmirching the name of The Grinning Mage, who is a separate personage altogether (and probably on the short list for The Circle of 8). Iggwilv, being a Demigod and/or Lesser Goddess (either winning free from Graz'zt's domain in The Abyss or else making a deal with him) doesn't care, at least not yet. Maybe sometime later she'll deal with the upstart Natasha or else it serves her purpose for people to think they're the same since it will draw fire to Natasha and away from Iggwilv and her machinations.
Edit: There is a fictional history for The Grinning Mage that can be found on Canonfire! that seems to work well enough....except for the fact they got her level wrong at 9th when she would be minimum 12th according to The Lore of Subtle Communication.
Further information that completely (and totally) undermines the idiotic notion that Iggwilv was Zagig Yragerne's apprentice comes from the 1E AD&D Deities & Demigods: Cyclopedia of Gods and Heroes of Myth and Legend. As I said, if anything, Iggwilv would be OLDER than Zagig by a country mile, even if she took the "shortcut" to divinity as he did.....
DIVINE ASCENSION As study of the various mythologies will show, it is remotely possible for mortals to ascend into the ranks of the divine. However, there are certain requirements that must be fulfilled before such a thing could happen. First, the character in question must have advanced to an experience level that is significantly above and beyond the average level of adventure-type characters in the general campaign. (This includes all such non-player types as military leaders, royal magic-users, etc.) For example, if the average level of characters in a campaign, both player and non-player, is around 5th level, then a candidate for ascension should be something like 9th or 10th level. If the average level is something like 15th, then a character would have to be in the realm of 25th-30th level! Second, his or her ability scores must have been raised through some mighty world-shaking magic to be on par with the lesser demigods. (Should such an act be lightly considered, remember that a Wish spell is the most powerful magic that mankind can control, and such an average increase in abilities would literally take the power of dozens of wishes! Each use of that spell weakens the caster and ages him 3 years into the bargain, so they are not easy to come by.) Third, the personage must have a body of sincere worshipers, people convinced of his or her divinity due to their witnessing of and/or belief in the mighty deeds and miracles which he or she has performed (and continues to perform). These must be genuine worshipers, honest in their adoration or propitiation of the person. Fourth, the person in question must be and have been a faithful and true follower of his or her alignment and patron deity. It is certain that any deviation will have been noted by the divine powers. If all of the above conditions have been met, and the character has fulfilled a sufficient number of divine quests, then the character's deity may choose to invest the person with a certain amount of divine power, and bring the character into the ranks of the god's celestial (or infernal) servants. This process of ascension usually involves a great glowing beam of light and celestial fanfare, or (in the case of those transmigrating to the lower planes), a blotting of the sun, thunder and lightning, and the disappearance of the character in a great smoky explosion. Characters thus taken into the realms of the gods will serve their patron as minor functionaries and messengers. After several centuries of superior service and gradual advancement, exceptional servants may be awarded the status of demigod, which includes having an earthly priesthood and the ability to grant spells (of up to 5th level) to the demigod's clerics.
Note the text talks about Divine Quests and "several centuries of service". Now, presumably there could be a shortcut to this, like what Zagyg did to attain demigod status (and others before him like Vecna). Note that Greyhawk has several tiers of godlings BELOW that of Demigod (Iuz, Zagyg, Wastri, Mayaheine, etc) and above Hero: Quasi-Deity (Daern, Murlynd, Heward, Johydee, Keoghtom, etc) and then Hero-Deities (Kelanen), though for reasons unknown in 3E they combined Quasi-Deities & Hero-Deities into a single category called Hero-Gods.
Given Iggwilv's likely background, she was probably a Cleric of Wee Jas (the Suel goddess of Magic, Death and Vanity) which seems to fit Iggwilv well enough. Given that Iggwilv is known as Louhi 'on another plane', she would be Lawful Evil (which also fits with Wee Jas and her priesthood). It was probably this difference in alignment that lead her to fight with Graz'zt. Both Iuz the Old and Drelnza are Chaotic Evil, which could further explain the "dysfunctional family" and why Drelnza was imprisoned (as much as Iggwilv may have loved her daughter). And Iggwilv, assuming the guise of Louhi, would have worshipers in a fantastical version of Finland and anywhere else Louhi/Loviatar is worshiped (such as Faerûn).
The primary reason is twofold. After Gygax was forced out TSR, the company began really pushing the Realms as it's primary Campaign setting. Primarily because Greyhawk was the creation of Gygax. So focus began to shift. They made nods to it but it was dying a slow death with no real new official adventures set in the WoG. (New Modules were set in the Realms). when WoTC took over, Greyhawk was barely even a mention, and they Retconned a lot of the material to shoehorn the content and adventures to be able to be run in the Realms or other campaign settings in 3e and 3.5.
This process has been expanded even further with 5E. this can be seen with the treatment of Vecna, originally a creation of Greyhawk and now co-opted into the Realms. (but hey you CAN set it in Greyhawk if you want to..."
Greyhawk was a rich and involved setting with very little modern source material today. In many ways it was more involved and a better built world than the Realms.
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Hello, I have a question about the travel to other worlds.
1/ The First World, is it similar to the First World from Golarion ?
2/ Is it a vessel as those for the illithids ?
3/ What is aware of the world's existence ? Just to know the others worlds ? How do you obtain a magic item that originated on the other world ?
4/ How is it possible for the method in below ? Do the character have already visit the world ?
Apparently, there are also a 5th method with Baba Yaga's Mortar and Pestle.
5/The problem is to obtain the dust or paste from creature native to the named world.
1) Don't know.
2) Sure. Also see "Spelljammer" ships.
3) This is a plot device. The DM either gives you something explicitly, or you will never find something from another world. This isn't something that a player can do on their own.
4) As above, it's a plot device. The DM either gives you the "knowledge", or you don't get it.
Am I missing something? Isn't the fundamental method of moving between planes of existence the level 7 Plane Shift spell - though since you need an item attuned to the plane you intend to travel to (or a teleportation circle address) which implies that there are other mechanisms available to allow travel without prior knowledge.
However, the teleportation spells specifically do not allow transport between planes of existence.
Teleport: "The destination you choose must be known to you, and it must be on the same plane of existence as you"
Teleportation circle: "As you cast the spell, you draw a 10-foot-diameter circle on the ground inscribed with sigils that link your location to a permanent teleportation circle of your choice whose sigil sequence you know and that is on the same plane of existence as you."
So for transplanar travel even to known teleportation circles you have to use plane shift.
"Alternatively, if you know the sigil sequence of a teleportation circle on another plane of existence, this spell can take you to that circle."
P.S. Unless "plane" means something different than I thought in D&D :)
P.P.S. The Unearthly Roads section in Tasha's on page 169 is another mechanism a DM could use to move groups between "planes" or "worlds" of existence depending on whether alternative realities are distinct from planes of existence.
You are correct. But the book is talking about traveling to different realms or spheres, not planes. All realms have a prime material.
Usually aiming a teleport or getting a circle address is nearly impossible due to the caster's lack of knowledge on the destination.
The curse only allowed her two exits both portals within the Temple grounds one entering the Shadowfell and the other to a Prime Material World.
2) No isn't that the Far Realm or the Astral Sea?
3) Used a portal to the Prime Material World to venture within that world was previously settled on another such world until banished and is now seeking a way back or at least the means to contact the family she left behind there.
4) Its a part of the abandoned temple that she has access to as its home to her Patron Deity and her Refuge.
She could let others enter, but the danger of them wandering outside the temple grounds is so great to those visitors, she has never alllowed anyone other than family members access to the Refuge.
The only exception was one of the three guards posted to the Temple border who accompanied her and her son back to their world before she was banished and he is currently protecting her grandson there following the death of his parents and as far as she knows has no other means of entering the Feywild.
It should be noted when the Temple was moved the two remaining Guards were also caught within the Temple grounds and have no means of contacting their tribe to let them know where the Temple has been moved to.
Dungeons & Dragons was always, technically speaking, built upon "travel between worlds", even when it was still in the prototype stage known as Castles & Crusade Society Map of The Great Kingdom & Environs (which evolved into The Flanaess/Greyhawk). Anytime Lord Robilar and Mordenkainen traveled to the lands of Blackmoor, they were (in effect) traveling to a different world (considering Dave Arneson's home campaign was different from Gygax's and Kuntz's). The same was true when Yrag (another of EGG's characters) adventured in Kalibruhn (Rob Kuntz's campaign setting).
As for how to accomplish it, there were always weird magickal effects and the like that could accomplish that. Sometimes they were tied to a specific place like The Lost City of the Elders/Garden of the Plantmaster which is set in Kalibruhn, but arrived at from a behind waterfall in Greyhawk or The Comeback Inn in Blackmoor that survived the cataclysm that destroyed Thonia. Or maybe a specific event, such as a planetary conjunction, etc.
Edit: If any world is the Primordial World, its the C&CS Domesday Map, considering so much of what is D&D got its beginnings there, from Iggwilv (who is not Tasha, I don't care who retcons what, Gygax created her and he said she was in no way, shape or form related), to Mind Flayers, Drow and so on and so forth.
Can you expand on that?
I know they combined them for this book, but I'd like to know the difference.
I assume you mean Tasha (of the Hideous Laughter), Natasha the Dark and Iggwilv the Witch-Queen of Perrenland. They didn't combine them for 5E, they did it back at the end of 3E and it was stupid then and a needless (and baseless) retcon. The problem started with some people apparently being incapable of seeing 3 separate female wizards and had this nonsensical idea to combine them (for reasons I don't comprehend). However, there are enough clues (besides the fact E. Gary Gygax created 2 of the 3 and point blank said they weren't related) to show them as being 3 separate personages.
- Iggwilv the Witch-Queen of Perrenland was at least a Demigod (if not Lesser Goddess based on her spell ability to grant to followers) in status. The process to gain apotheosis like that takes hundreds of years for mortals to accomplish in the setting where she's from (Oerth/Greyhawk). Based on the Demonomicon of Iggwilv, Iggwilv was at least a Cleric of 16th lvl (by 1E AD&D rules) since she could cast 7th lvl spells (specifically Henley's Digit of Disruption as penned in The Demonomicon) as well as being an Archmage, meaning at least 18th lvl in 1E, according to multiple published sources (backrgound info of S4: The Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth, Tenser the Archmage in WG4: Isle of the Ape, etc). The Lost Caverns were the seat of her power and her realm when she was overthrown nearly a century before CY576, the date of the publishing for The World of Greyhawk Map and Gazetteer by The Savant-Sage (no name given). A little later, Iggwilv's cambion son by Graz'zt became the lord of his own land, named after him: Iuz (the Old, also elevated to Demigod status by some means). He did so with Iggwilv's help around the same time she was overthrown in Perrenland (CY479).
According Artifact of Evil (2nd book of the Gord the Rogue series, the first 2 of which were published by TSR), Iggwilv has blonde hair. "Iggwilv shook her head. "Not so fast, my prodigal. Is that any way for a devoted son to speak to his Dear Mother?" Even as she uttered this admonition, the ancient crone, one who had appeared a parody of every child's nightmare of a wicked witch, changed. Her features flowed and changed as her body grew and straightened. Scraggly, gray locks became flowing tresses of hair like spun gold, and face and form matched the radiance of this golden head." Given her golden tresses (and pale skin) I'd guess she's Suel in descent, maybe even an actual Suloise Mage
Iggwilv is also known to have at least 1 daughter, the warrior woman Drelnza (Fighter 13th lvl), who was infected with vampirism and was imprisoned by Iggwilv to guard one of her treasure caches (The Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth). There is also a sketch under the Graz'zt entry in S4 showing him battling what appears to be a blonde haired Mage. That is quite likely him battling to gain freedom from Iggwilv.
According to Sea of Death (not published by TSR): "The witch was incredibly ancient, older even than old Iuz—in fact, Iggwilv was the mother of the cambion who had designs on all of Oerth. Iggwilv's infamy reached byond Oerth to other worlds that paralleled it and occasionally touched it for a time. Ychbilch she was called on one of those worlds, Louhi on another." (Louhi is basically the Finnish analague to Baba Yaga.)
- Tasha (called The Grinning Mage by some Greyhawk fans) is an unknown quantity since almost nothing is known about her except what can be gleaned from the little that is published: she had a famous spellbook called Lore of Subtle Communication, published in Dragon Magazine #82, which includes the spell named for her (IRL, it was a young lady named Tasha who wrote to Gygax asking for a spell that involved laughter so he created Tasha's Uncontrollable Hideous Laughter where it was published in Dragon Magazine before becoming official in Unearthed Arcana in 1985). Given the fact her spellbook has Legend Lore, a 6th lvl Mage spell, she has to be at least 12th lvl according to 1E AD&D.
- Natasha the Dark was a creation of Roger E. Moore for his adventure The Dancing Hut published in Dragon Magazine #83 where the adventurers enter The Dancing Hut of Baba Yaga (an artifact in Greyhawk that has been there since it was published in Supplement 3: Eldritch Wizardry). Natasha the Dark is a demon-binder (like Iggwilv) but is one of the "daughters" of Baba Yaga (the other being Elena the Fair). Natasha the Dark is a sultry seductress, much like Iggwilv, but has hair that is "smoky dark". Furthermore, the stats given for Natasha the Dark says she's a dual-class 7th lvl Illusionist/15th lvl Mage (meaning she's not only less powerful than Iggwilv, she's not even the same type of dual-classed since Iggwilv was an Archmage 18th/Cleric 16th). Also Natasha the Dark is a daughter of Baba Yaga (who is said at the end of the adventure to be equivalent to a Quasi-Deity of Oerth, so less in stature than a Demigod) and with all her differences cannot BE Iggwilv. Furthermore, Natasha the Dark's spellbook isn't listed so if she was supposed to be Tasha (of the Hideous Laughter), then WHY did it not say she had that spell in her spellbook? That would have been a rather important fact.
The problem started when WotC, without much forethought (in my not so humble opinion) decided to canonize a fan-fiction version of Iggwilv that ignored obvious canon elements, in addition to not even bothering to find out the creators' opinions (E Gary Gygax for Iggwilv and Tasha, Roger E. Moore for Natasha the Dark). This was done at the end of 3rd Edition's product cycle. Never mind that Iggwilv had been given wink-and-a-nod mentions that put her as a Demigod in some D20 products (where she was called The Mother of Witches, which is akin to Baba Yaga's title). Retcons for "reasons" upset the apple cart as it interferes with DM campaigns (the reason why The Greyhawk Wars were for the most part loathed by many Greyhawk fans was no Gygax involvement and cramming a metaplot down the throats of DMs, damn the consequences to their campaigns). There are claims that many people considered Tasha (the Grinning Mage) and Natasha the Dark to be the same person because the spell was published only a year or so before The Dancing Hut. This, to me, is rather idiotic and stretching by some fans. If there HAD been a connection between Iggwilv and Natasha the Dark (other than their relation to Baba Yaga and demon-binding) then the fracking texts would have said so, Gary Gygax and Roger E. Moore would also have said so. Apparently, Greyhawk can only have one Mage called Tasha/Natasha....even though their appellations are different (Natasha is called The Dark, while Tasha has no appellation in canon).
It was the aforementioned fan-fiction that made Iggwilv (under the named Tasha) an apprentice (and later adventuring companion) of Zagig Yragerne who himself later became the Demigod of Magic, Zagyg. Now, the only linkage between the 2 comes from the fact in Iggwilv's treasure hoard is a Prison of Zagig for which she also has a command word. However, for her to have been Zagig's apprentice, the timelines don't match! Zagig himself was born somewhere before the founding of Castle Greyhawk, from which he ruled and gained considerable power circa CY375. While we don't know the exact date of the construction according to Gygax (who would have been the final authority on it, considering it was his creation) WGR1: Greyhawk Ruins says it was finished in CY320. That sort of, more or less, fits, but could easily be as late as CY349. Zagig would have the low end age of 26 according to the 1E DMG chart on Human Classes and Ages (assuming he was already a 1st lvl Mage when he began construction, since he was a noble and probably had access to a good deal wealth). Since his power grew until CY375 and he later just disappeared with no visible change or age (so sometime AFTER CY375) that gives him a mortal lifespan of at least 82 years of age (born in CY294 to CY376 if we accept CY320 as the castle's construction). He goes into seclusion and begins to work on attaining divine status, which he won't achieve until circa CY505 when he kidnaps Iuz the Old and the other Demigods he imprisoned beneath Castle Greyhawk.
Iggwilv was already a Demigod by the time she had her minions take over the area around her abode and all subject the Marches of Perrenland to her iron fist. The same would be true for Iuz the Old when he rose to power in his land in CY479. That makes them both older than Zagig because they would have had to go through some great trial of sorts to gain divine status (though Iuz would have had a leg up on Zagig given his Half-Demon Lord/Cambion status). If anything, Zagig would have been Iggwilv's apprentice, not the other way around!
Instead of having 3 fully fleshed out characters for DMs to put in their campaigns, WotC used someone's fan-fiction history of Iggwilv that (stupidly) combined Iggwilv the Witch-Queen of Perrenland, Tasha (the Grinning Mage) and Natasha the Dark...even though canon elements clearly show that cannot be the case and the creator of Iggwilv (Gygax) flat out said it was wrong.
TL;DR: The backstory WotC has given for Iggwilv doesn't match anything remotely canon, they have retconned too many elements and basically ignored the creator's vision and they don't particularly care whose campaigns (some of which have been long running) they derailed to do so, cause Greyhawk Lore is apparently "not a thing".
I remember Iuz from the 3.0 Greyhawk release and about Zagyg.
Why combine them then?
Could have had Tasha be a former student familiar with Natasha the Dark, my god just mentioning the Iuz part would have made that book more interesting for its links to Greyhawk!
I need to jot this down, some of this will come in very useful!
Maybe Tasha being a conflation or a distinct person from the other lore characters is all a meta plot to allow WotC to drop a "Everything in Tasha's is a lie" hand grenade into the community. It's the first thing PCs encounter upon crossing the Blue Veil into Greyhawk in the first of the 2022 "Year of Greyhawk" hardbacks of a setting book, a crunch book, and two adventures.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
I do run it that way anyway. Natasha the Dark is currently besmirching the name of The Grinning Mage, who is a separate personage altogether (and probably on the short list for The Circle of 8). Iggwilv, being a Demigod and/or Lesser Goddess (either winning free from Graz'zt's domain in The Abyss or else making a deal with him) doesn't care, at least not yet. Maybe sometime later she'll deal with the upstart Natasha or else it serves her purpose for people to think they're the same since it will draw fire to Natasha and away from Iggwilv and her machinations.
Edit: There is a fictional history for The Grinning Mage that can be found on Canonfire! that seems to work well enough....except for the fact they got her level wrong at 9th when she would be minimum 12th according to The Lore of Subtle Communication.
Further information that completely (and totally) undermines the idiotic notion that Iggwilv was Zagig Yragerne's apprentice comes from the 1E AD&D Deities & Demigods: Cyclopedia of Gods and Heroes of Myth and Legend. As I said, if anything, Iggwilv would be OLDER than Zagig by a country mile, even if she took the "shortcut" to divinity as he did.....
DIVINE ASCENSION
As study of the various mythologies will show, it is remotely possible for mortals to ascend into the ranks of the divine. However, there are certain requirements that must be fulfilled before such a thing could happen.
First, the character in question must have advanced to an experience level that is significantly above and beyond the average level of adventure-type characters in the general campaign. (This includes all such non-player types as military leaders, royal magic-users, etc.) For example, if the average level of characters in a campaign, both player and non-player, is around 5th level, then a candidate for ascension should be something like 9th or 10th level. If the average level is something like 15th, then a character would have to be in the realm of 25th-30th level!
Second, his or her ability scores must have been raised through some mighty world-shaking magic to be on par with the lesser demigods. (Should such an act be lightly considered, remember that a Wish spell is the most powerful magic that mankind can control, and such an average increase in abilities would literally take the power of dozens of wishes! Each use of that spell weakens the caster and ages him 3 years into the bargain, so they are not easy to come by.)
Third, the personage must have a body of sincere worshipers, people convinced of his or her divinity due to their witnessing of and/or belief in the mighty deeds and miracles which he or she has performed (and continues to perform). These must be genuine worshipers, honest in their adoration or propitiation of the person.
Fourth, the person in question must be and have been a faithful and true follower of his or her alignment and patron deity. It is certain that any deviation will have been noted by the divine powers.
If all of the above conditions have been met, and the character has fulfilled a sufficient number of divine quests, then the character's deity may choose to invest the person with a certain amount of divine power, and bring the character into the ranks of the god's celestial (or infernal) servants. This process of ascension usually involves a great glowing beam of light and celestial fanfare, or (in the case of those transmigrating to the lower planes), a blotting of the sun, thunder and lightning, and the disappearance of the character in a great smoky explosion. Characters thus taken into the realms of the gods will serve their patron as minor functionaries and messengers. After several centuries of superior service and gradual advancement, exceptional servants may be awarded the status of demigod, which includes having an earthly priesthood and the ability to grant spells (of up to 5th level) to the demigod's clerics.
Note the text talks about Divine Quests and "several centuries of service". Now, presumably there could be a shortcut to this, like what Zagyg did to attain demigod status (and others before him like Vecna). Note that Greyhawk has several tiers of godlings BELOW that of Demigod (Iuz, Zagyg, Wastri, Mayaheine, etc) and above Hero: Quasi-Deity (Daern, Murlynd, Heward, Johydee, Keoghtom, etc) and then Hero-Deities (Kelanen), though for reasons unknown in 3E they combined Quasi-Deities & Hero-Deities into a single category called Hero-Gods.
Given Iggwilv's likely background, she was probably a Cleric of Wee Jas (the Suel goddess of Magic, Death and Vanity) which seems to fit Iggwilv well enough. Given that Iggwilv is known as Louhi 'on another plane', she would be Lawful Evil (which also fits with Wee Jas and her priesthood). It was probably this difference in alignment that lead her to fight with Graz'zt. Both Iuz the Old and Drelnza are Chaotic Evil, which could further explain the "dysfunctional family" and why Drelnza was imprisoned (as much as Iggwilv may have loved her daughter). And Iggwilv, assuming the guise of Louhi, would have worshipers in a fantastical version of Finland and anywhere else Louhi/Loviatar is worshiped (such as Faerûn).
The primary reason is twofold. After Gygax was forced out TSR, the company began really pushing the Realms as it's primary Campaign setting. Primarily because Greyhawk was the creation of Gygax. So focus began to shift. They made nods to it but it was dying a slow death with no real new official adventures set in the WoG. (New Modules were set in the Realms). when WoTC took over, Greyhawk was barely even a mention, and they Retconned a lot of the material to shoehorn the content and adventures to be able to be run in the Realms or other campaign settings in 3e and 3.5.
This process has been expanded even further with 5E. this can be seen with the treatment of Vecna, originally a creation of Greyhawk and now co-opted into the Realms. (but hey you CAN set it in Greyhawk if you want to..."
Greyhawk was a rich and involved setting with very little modern source material today. In many ways it was more involved and a better built world than the Realms.