For all those who have played Curse of Strahd, let's pretend that the Vistani aren't based on a horribly outdated and frankly racist stereotype of the Magical Romani. Have you been cursed by the Vistani in some way in your games? If so, how did the curse manifest?
In my current game, the Celestial Warlock got himself cursed to have terribly evil-looking eyes (black sclera and blood red iris). The curse technically came from the Dark Powers because he was unfortunate enough to attract their attention, but I think the difference is minimal. In return, he gains Devil's Sight for 1 minute every time he spills blood (doesn't stack). And I have a whole chart of similar, but gradually worsening, curses that he'll experience if he attracts more attention.
As a DM, I've always kind of underplayed the Vistani for the reason you mention, so I don't think I ever used any Vistani curses. But I had a few on tap. I didn't chart out the progress of any curse because, by tradition, there is an "ironic punishment" quality to these curses and I couldn't know in advance which player would offend a Vistani and in which way. In addition to the examples in the book, I decided rolling on the long-term or indefinite madness table would be good, or assigning a phobia.
One thing I thought up in case things got really out of hand was a sort of combination of the movies Drag Me To Hell and It Follows, where if anyone harmed a Vistani, the weapon they used would be cursed to have a monster follow it around and attack the possessor. I like attaching curses to players' gear because the prospect of losing gear makes players completely irrational and the curse is still in effect if someone dies, rolls a replacement and starts using the gear again.
I also kind of wanted to do a full-bore J-horror thing, like Ju-On, centered around the little Vistani kid who gets drowned in the lake, but I never really fleshed it out in my mind and the players saved her.
As a player, my DM was pretty unprepared and Madame Eva ended up just chasing me out of the tent literally flinging her cards at me and heaping me with verbal abuse. So that's another way you can go.
First of all, the Romani, or Gypsies -- which just means that they come from Egypt -- because they went around telling people they were Christian refugees from Egypt-- they weren't-- but they aren't a race. The historical discrimination was based on their culture, not their ancestory. Secondly, that culture varied from region to region, travelling people in Scotland were very different than travelling people in the Balkans. If they could pass as "Christian refugees" they probably weren't seen as a different race-- I would argue they still aren't today. I argue that as someone with considerable ***** ancestry, who has never been thought of as "not white."
So, it's not really racism, it's just xenophobia. Given that those communities themselves were extremely xenophobic, maybe we should all calm down before we start pointing fingers and claim racism. Said said, my second point would be this:
Those stereotypes, such as curses, were definitely played up by the travelling people themselves. If people think you have witches, people are less likely to mess with you as a group-- which is kind of the way they liked it as group of minority nomads. No-one needs to be offended by historical tropes persisting in literature and fantasy.
As to your first point, and this is just my personal opinion: it's 2020 and I'm tired of the Bizarro-World Mirror-Universe political correctness whereby I have to precisely label such-and-such as mere ignorance, or simple prejudice, or isolated bigotry, to avoid "triggering" people with the R-word. Ain't no reason to get excited, but that's where I am these days. Sorry if you took offense.
As to your second, that we needn't be offended by historical tropes in fantasy. By and large I agree with you, but it behooves us to know when we're passing along something that has been historically weaponized against someone who probably isn't us and treat the material with due caution. Responsible weapon handling is what separates good players from murderhobos.
Barovia (and we can probably drag Tracy Hickman in here if we need to, to confirm this) is a reproduction of old Hammer and Universal horror movies, which I suspect got their picture of ***** culture from Bram Stoker's Dracula novel, storefront fortune-teller ladies in Manhattan and LA, and each other. In fact, outside of the Opera Carmen and the book Hunchback of Notre Dame, I don't think you see many Romani in literature UNTIL Dracula (or perhaps before the late 19th century generally, for whatever reason). I therefore submit that most of the stereotypical image of the magic fortune-telling curse-slinging ***** is a relatively modern telephone game creation that has, at its heart, a book that's frankly pretty racist to everyone east of the English Channel and west of Dublin. If someone designed a South Asian themed setting that was mostly based on Disney's The Jungle Book, or an East Asian themed setting based on the place I got takeout last night, maybe they wouldn't be malicious, maybe I'd like the setting on its own terms, but I'd approach with caution.
Finally, I think we're on thin ice saying the Romani people played up the witches and curses. A group that, as a defense mechanism, leans into scary stories that were already deployed against them to justify mistreatment, shouldn't be held responsible for the existence of the stories themselves.
All that said, it's not like I don't have palm-reading, vardo-driving, unidentifiable accent-having, accordion-and-violin-playing , peasant blouse-bandana-and-hoop earring-wearing, sexy-barefoot-dancing Vistani in the game, and Sigrun clearly does too. They're okay supporting characters and great set dressing. But most of what you can do with them, you can do with the Martikovs or the Dusk Elves, or the Argynvostholst knights and I just usually keep the spotlight elsewhere.
In my defence, when I wrote that post, you hadn't posted your own yet. So naturally, I didn't take offence.
The people who it was weaponised against are long dead. Witches, as we understand them popularly, and curses don't exist. They're superstitions. Obviously, in parts of Europe, people still hold grudges, but all in all... yeah. I don't think it's malicious to represent them as such. Nor is it racist: we aren't discriminating against them. We're not making a comment on their culture or society.
They aren't responsible for the stories, but they are responsible for the perpetuation of them. Once you buy into a narrative, you are a part owner of that narrative. If you hear a lie about yourself and then spread that lie to your advantage-- even as a defence mechanism-- it is in the same family as lying itself. It's clearly not a big deal, as we all seem to agree the Visitani are okay. But I really dislike it when other people get offended on my behalf. And yeah, the "r" word is problematic because people use it every time another culture is depicted by outsiders, it seems, and that sort of thinking I find extremely xenophobic. It's just an attempt to make sure everyone's cultural fiefdoms remain exclusive and as a person with a very international life, with very international friends, I don't like the implication that everyone should stay in their lane and only culturally authentic persons can even comment on a society legitimately. Please note that this isn't a comment on you personally, obviously.
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For all those who have played Curse of Strahd, let's pretend that the Vistani aren't based on a horribly outdated and frankly racist stereotype of the Magical Romani. Have you been cursed by the Vistani in some way in your games? If so, how did the curse manifest?
In my current game, the Celestial Warlock got himself cursed to have terribly evil-looking eyes (black sclera and blood red iris). The curse technically came from the Dark Powers because he was unfortunate enough to attract their attention, but I think the difference is minimal. In return, he gains Devil's Sight for 1 minute every time he spills blood (doesn't stack). And I have a whole chart of similar, but gradually worsening, curses that he'll experience if he attracts more attention.
As a DM, I've always kind of underplayed the Vistani for the reason you mention, so I don't think I ever used any Vistani curses. But I had a few on tap. I didn't chart out the progress of any curse because, by tradition, there is an "ironic punishment" quality to these curses and I couldn't know in advance which player would offend a Vistani and in which way. In addition to the examples in the book, I decided rolling on the long-term or indefinite madness table would be good, or assigning a phobia.
One thing I thought up in case things got really out of hand was a sort of combination of the movies Drag Me To Hell and It Follows, where if anyone harmed a Vistani, the weapon they used would be cursed to have a monster follow it around and attack the possessor. I like attaching curses to players' gear because the prospect of losing gear makes players completely irrational and the curse is still in effect if someone dies, rolls a replacement and starts using the gear again.
I also kind of wanted to do a full-bore J-horror thing, like Ju-On, centered around the little Vistani kid who gets drowned in the lake, but I never really fleshed it out in my mind and the players saved her.
As a player, my DM was pretty unprepared and Madame Eva ended up just chasing me out of the tent literally flinging her cards at me and heaping me with verbal abuse. So that's another way you can go.
First of all, the Romani, or Gypsies -- which just means that they come from Egypt -- because they went around telling people they were Christian refugees from Egypt-- they weren't-- but they aren't a race. The historical discrimination was based on their culture, not their ancestory. Secondly, that culture varied from region to region, travelling people in Scotland were very different than travelling people in the Balkans. If they could pass as "Christian refugees" they probably weren't seen as a different race-- I would argue they still aren't today. I argue that as someone with considerable ***** ancestry, who has never been thought of as "not white."
So, it's not really racism, it's just xenophobia. Given that those communities themselves were extremely xenophobic, maybe we should all calm down before we start pointing fingers and claim racism. Said said, my second point would be this:
Those stereotypes, such as curses, were definitely played up by the travelling people themselves. If people think you have witches, people are less likely to mess with you as a group-- which is kind of the way they liked it as group of minority nomads. No-one needs to be offended by historical tropes persisting in literature and fantasy.
As to your first point, and this is just my personal opinion: it's 2020 and I'm tired of the Bizarro-World Mirror-Universe political correctness whereby I have to precisely label such-and-such as mere ignorance, or simple prejudice, or isolated bigotry, to avoid "triggering" people with the R-word. Ain't no reason to get excited, but that's where I am these days. Sorry if you took offense.
As to your second, that we needn't be offended by historical tropes in fantasy. By and large I agree with you, but it behooves us to know when we're passing along something that has been historically weaponized against someone who probably isn't us and treat the material with due caution. Responsible weapon handling is what separates good players from murderhobos.
Barovia (and we can probably drag Tracy Hickman in here if we need to, to confirm this) is a reproduction of old Hammer and Universal horror movies, which I suspect got their picture of ***** culture from Bram Stoker's Dracula novel, storefront fortune-teller ladies in Manhattan and LA, and each other. In fact, outside of the Opera Carmen and the book Hunchback of Notre Dame, I don't think you see many Romani in literature UNTIL Dracula (or perhaps before the late 19th century generally, for whatever reason). I therefore submit that most of the stereotypical image of the magic fortune-telling curse-slinging ***** is a relatively modern telephone game creation that has, at its heart, a book that's frankly pretty racist to everyone east of the English Channel and west of Dublin. If someone designed a South Asian themed setting that was mostly based on Disney's The Jungle Book, or an East Asian themed setting based on the place I got takeout last night, maybe they wouldn't be malicious, maybe I'd like the setting on its own terms, but I'd approach with caution.
Finally, I think we're on thin ice saying the Romani people played up the witches and curses. A group that, as a defense mechanism, leans into scary stories that were already deployed against them to justify mistreatment, shouldn't be held responsible for the existence of the stories themselves.
All that said, it's not like I don't have palm-reading, vardo-driving, unidentifiable accent-having, accordion-and-violin-playing , peasant blouse-bandana-and-hoop earring-wearing, sexy-barefoot-dancing Vistani in the game, and Sigrun clearly does too. They're okay supporting characters and great set dressing. But most of what you can do with them, you can do with the Martikovs or the Dusk Elves, or the Argynvostholst knights and I just usually keep the spotlight elsewhere.
In my defence, when I wrote that post, you hadn't posted your own yet. So naturally, I didn't take offence.
The people who it was weaponised against are long dead. Witches, as we understand them popularly, and curses don't exist. They're superstitions. Obviously, in parts of Europe, people still hold grudges, but all in all... yeah. I don't think it's malicious to represent them as such. Nor is it racist: we aren't discriminating against them. We're not making a comment on their culture or society.
They aren't responsible for the stories, but they are responsible for the perpetuation of them. Once you buy into a narrative, you are a part owner of that narrative. If you hear a lie about yourself and then spread that lie to your advantage-- even as a defence mechanism-- it is in the same family as lying itself. It's clearly not a big deal, as we all seem to agree the Visitani are okay. But I really dislike it when other people get offended on my behalf. And yeah, the "r" word is problematic because people use it every time another culture is depicted by outsiders, it seems, and that sort of thinking I find extremely xenophobic. It's just an attempt to make sure everyone's cultural fiefdoms remain exclusive and as a person with a very international life, with very international friends, I don't like the implication that everyone should stay in their lane and only culturally authentic persons can even comment on a society legitimately. Please note that this isn't a comment on you personally, obviously.