You don't need strength, with the Revenant Bladefeat. And, Rogues and spellcasters are among the best classes to benefit from what Revenant Blade has to offer (two weapon fighting while keeping a hand free for casting).
The "School of Illusion" Wizard subclass doesn't give you any real combat features until level 10, and even then, it's only once/short rest. The 14th level feature is pretty cool for making you really good at creating lots of walls and obstructions with lower level illusion spells, but other than that, it too is mostly an out-of-combat ability. Which is fine, I think Illusionists are really great for solving puzzles and social encounters in fun ways! Just know that the power of illusion spells, and the School of Illusion subclass, mostly comes down to your creativity as a player and your DM's willingness to say "yes" to your creative solutions, and not so much on features that you can optimize.
That isn't to say that there aren't plenty of useful illusions for combat... just that the School of Illusion Wizard isn't particularly better at using them than anyone else is, the spells are their own feature in a way. If it's illusions in combat that excite you, and blending them with fancy sword work, then I might suggest that you focus more on being an Arcane Trickster Rogue, Echo Knight Fighter, Trickery Cleric, Glamour or Whispers Bard, Shadow Monk, or Archfey Warlock, because they all have features more centered around fighting than the Wizard does.
If you give an idea of what level you're starting at, I can give some more specific advice that doesn't assume any bizarre multiclasses that aren't any fun to play until they come together!
I agree with chicken champ but I would add another option if you want ot be a wizard effective at fighting:
A Bladesong wizard is a wizard designed for melee combat, your blade song gives to decent AC and advantage on con saves. While you don't get the illusionist subclass features could could take and use mostly illusion spells.
I like the idea of attack from hiding for sneak attack, second attack replaced by minor illusion of a boulder, move behind the illusorary boulder and bonus action hide. Rinse and repeat.
They are excellent, yes... but you can't use Bladesinging while wielding a double-bladed scimitar, so I left that off the list. You could with a regular Scimitar, or even while wielding two Scimitars, but...
You don't need strength, with the Revenant Bladefeat. And, Rogues and spellcasters are among the best classes to benefit from what Revenant Blade has to offer (two weapon fighting while keeping a hand free for casting).
The "School of Illusion" Wizard subclass doesn't give you any real combat features until level 10, and even then, it's only once/short rest. The 14th level feature is pretty cool for making you really good at creating lots of walls and obstructions with lower level illusion spells, but other than that, it too is mostly an out-of-combat ability. Which is fine, I think Illusionists are really great for solving puzzles and social encounters in fun ways! Just know that the power of illusion spells, and the School of Illusion subclass, mostly comes down to your creativity as a player and your DM's willingness to say "yes" to your creative solutions, and not so much on features that you can optimize.
That isn't to say that there aren't plenty of useful illusions for combat... just that the School of Illusion Wizard isn't particularly better at using them than anyone else is, the spells are their own feature in a way. If it's illusions in combat that excite you, and blending them with fancy sword work, then I might suggest that you focus more on being an Arcane Trickster Rogue, Echo Knight Fighter, Trickery Cleric, Glamour or Whispers Bard, Shadow Monk, or Archfey Warlock, because they all have features more centered around fighting than the Wizard does.
If you give an idea of what level you're starting at, I can give some more specific advice that doesn't assume any bizarre multiclasses that aren't any fun to play until they come together!
Thank you for your answer! Chicken_champ
So if the illusions cant help a ton in combat thats fine, I like the concept of my mage having access to all kinds of powerful magics, with illusions to be his specialty. Maybe CC and having a small handful of big hitter spells.
I'm starting at level 4 or 5 and intend him to max out eventually. I know multiclassing can be tough to work out late game but ill suffer a bit if i need to.
Id like to be able to get close sometimes for a sneak attack(maybe cloud of fog?) and have a quick outing (misty step, disengage etc.) And have a good ranged game.
Maybe I'm asking for too much but id like to make this character happen
I agree with chicken champ but I would add another option if you want ot be a wizard effective at fighting:
A Bladesong wizard is a wizard designed for melee combat, your blade song gives to decent AC and advantage on con saves. While you don't get the illusionist subclass features could could take and use mostly illusion spells.
I like the idea of attack from hiding for sneak attack, second attack replaced by minor illusion of a boulder, move behind the illusorary boulder and bonus action hide. Rinse and repeat.
There's several good spells that will help you hide or distract opponents in combat, both actual Illusion school spells like Color Spray or Silent Image, but also spells like Fog Cloud that you mentioned or Sleep that can still feel tricky and illusion-y. Don't feel like you have to take only Illusion spells, if there's others available that help you sneak around and ambush people. But it does sound like you're more in melee and ranged attacks combined with control/distraction spells, and not as interested in damaging enemies directly with spells, which... good, sounds like Illusionist could be the right concept for you!
There's feats that could help you be flexible in melee vs. ranged and get several attacks per round, like Crossbow Expert. But the pressure to take more and more feats (why take Crossbow Expert, without Sharpshooter too?) might push you to taking fewer spellcasting class levels than you're interested in and more Rogue levels, so I'm not sure if that's good advice to give you. As an Arcane Trickster 4 with 17 Dex and Crossbow Expert, you're going to make one or two attacks per round with that Crossbow, and have Illusion (like Silent Image and Color Spray) and Enchantment (like Sleep)spells, but not really have a good way to both cast spells and attack on the same rounds. It'll leave you feeling more like a normal Rogue, who sometimes casts Illusions, and not really like a powerful mage. Dual Wielding Daggers or a Dagger and a Scimitar is good, and compete much less with you improving your spellcasting ability score.
Honestly, the Bladesinger would be a really good class for you, if you can accept using a Scimitar and Dagger instead of a double-bladed scimitar. The Bladesinger lets you get multiple attacks at Wizard 6, lets you cast cantrips the same round as you attack (which is pretty hard to do), is fast and mobile with bonus speed, and is really good at keeping up concentration on their spells (which many Illusions require concentration). Being able to attack, cast Minor Illusion, and then Bonus Action Hide behind it is every bit the cool combo that Jegpeg mentioned.
But the Illusionist is fine too. Minor Illusion making noises AND images is a huge improvement to the spell, and at level 6 being able to use Disguise Self for multiple disguises, or just enchant your hat or whatever with Magic Mouth to constantly change its triggers and messages for the rest of forever, is pretty fun. So let's just build you a Rogue/Illusionist.
I'd start play with two levels of rogue in your build already, so that you have bonus action Hide available. But, for your other two or three levels, be a Wizard (Illusionist) or Wizard (Bladesinger). No feats yet... unless instead of being a Moon Elf, you instead want to build your Moon Elf using the Tasha's Custom Lineage option. Custom Lineage would let you have 18 Intelligence with the Fey Touched feat, but otherwise your starting stats probably have a 16 in Dex and a 17 in intelligence at this point. Silent Image, Color Spray, Sleep, Fog Cloud, and Shield should be among your spells. Probably Mind Sliver, Minor Illusion, and Prestidigitation as cantrips.
Your first priority with leveling up is to reach 18 Intelligence, and your second priority is to reach 20. Excessive multiclassing to nab features is a distraction you can't afford as a caster, especially one that focuses on save-based spells like Illusions. Consider Fey Touched or Shadow Touched at Wizard 4, and an ASI for +2 Intelligence at Wizard 8.
At this point, on the cusp of Tier 3 play, you should have a good sense of whether you enjoy being a Wizard who can bonus hide and sometimes sneak attack for 1d4+1d6+3 damage, or whether you're itching to be more of a Rogue and get up in people's faces. If the casting is working well for you, stick with Wizard levels, more high level spells sooner, more Arcane Recovery Slots, getting closer to your level 14 Illusory Reality feature... all that sounds good! Your Intelligence is 20, so now you can afford to do things like take Resilient (Con) to bring Constitution up a little and get Con saves; Warcaster for better concentration and reactionary illusions; Metamagic Adept for some longer or quicker illusions; or just +2 Dex ASI to start bringing up your AC beyond the 16 it's been sitting at.
If you want to pivot to more Rogue levels though, you have a choice: Arcane Trickster will keep (slowly) increasing your spellcasting progression, but honestly, isn't very exciting until Trickster 9 (and even that's not that cool). Soulknife is arguably cooler, but won't match with your dream to use a double-bladed scimitar, and too many levels of it will let your caster levels fall behind. Instead.... what about leaving Rogue at 2, and instead picking up some Fighter levels!? Right at Fighter 1, with Defensive fighting style, you unlock the ability to bump your AC up to 18 by wearing (Mithral?) Half Plate, or even 20 if you're willing to hold a Shield in tough fights where substance matters more than style. At Fighter 2, Action Surge , which is GREAT for casters by letting you throw around two action spells in a single round, or cast an illusion and attack! At Fighter 3.... I'd suggest either Echo Knight (very much fits your theme) or Eldritch Knight (sucks until 7 and doesn't fit your theme, but at least it gives you spell slot progression?). I don't think you honestly need more than 3 or 4 levels of Fighter, a Rogue 2/Echo Knight 4/Illusionist 14 would be a pretty cool end build. You might prioritize Revenant Blade (+1 Dex, AC is now 19 in Mithral Half Plate) and Slasher or Skill Expert (+1 Dex) as your last two feats?
Level 20, you've got the casting of a 14th level illusionist, which means you're missing 8th and 9th level spells but have plenty of slots for other spell levels. You've got all the fun illusion features from the Illusionist subclass... or if you went Bladesinger (don't take Revenant Blade, don't wear medium armor, but do take Dual Wielder and then an ASI for +2 Dex), you're a beastly melee combatant with great AC and powerful strikes, high mobility, and frequently weave illusions in between your attacks. You conjure an illusory duplicate of yourself in combat, which at any moment you can swap positions with, or attack from. And you hide easily with a bonus action, so when you go Invisible or conjure up shadows or fog clouds or illusory boulders, you can take full advantage of not just being concealed but actually being hidden.
Gish characters (mixed casting and melee attacks) are hard to build, there's no getting around it. You're not as good of a rogue as you could be. You're not as good of a wizard as you could be. You're not as good of a fighter as you could be. But, that being said, I think that Rogue 2, Echo Knight 3, and Bladesinger or Illusionist all fit together to make a pretty nifty illusion-based character.
There's several good spells that will help you hide or distract opponents in combat, both actual Illusion school spells like Color Spray or Silent Image, but also spells like Fog Cloud that you mentioned or Sleep that can still feel tricky and illusion-y. Don't feel like you have to take only Illusion spells, if there's others available that help you sneak around and ambush people. But it does sound like you're more in melee and ranged attacks combined with control/distraction spells, and not as interested in damaging enemies directly with spells, which... good, sounds like Illusionist could be the right concept for you!
There's feats that could help you be flexible in melee vs. ranged and get several attacks per round, like Crossbow Expert. But the pressure to take more and more feats (why take Crossbow Expert, without Sharpshooter too?) might push you to taking fewer spellcasting class levels than you're interested in and more Rogue levels, so I'm not sure if that's good advice to give you. As an Arcane Trickster 4 with 17 Dex and Crossbow Expert, you're going to make one or two attacks per round with that Crossbow, and have Illusion (like Silent Image and Color Spray) and Enchantment (like Sleep)spells, but not really have a good way to both cast spells and attack on the same rounds. It'll leave you feeling more like a normal Rogue, who sometimes casts Illusions, and not really like a powerful mage. Dual Wielding Daggers or a Dagger and a Scimitar is good, and compete much less with you improving your spellcasting ability score.
Honestly, the Bladesinger would be a really good class for you, if you can accept using a Scimitar and Dagger instead of a double-bladed scimitar. The Bladesinger lets you get multiple attacks at Wizard 6, lets you cast cantrips the same round as you attack (which is pretty hard to do), is fast and mobile with bonus speed, and is really good at keeping up concentration on their spells (which many Illusions require concentration). Being able to attack, cast Minor Illusion, and then Bonus Action Hide behind it is every bit the cool combo that Jegpeg mentioned.
But the Illusionist is fine too. Minor Illusion making noises AND images is a huge improvement to the spell, and at level 6 being able to use Disguise Self for multiple disguises, or just enchant your hat or whatever with Magic Mouth to constantly change its triggers and messages for the rest of forever, is pretty fun. So let's just build you a Rogue/Illusionist.
I'd start play with two levels of rogue in your build already, so that you have bonus action Hide available. But, for your other two or three levels, be a Wizard (Illusionist) or Wizard (Bladesinger). No feats yet... unless instead of being a Moon Elf, you instead want to build your Moon Elf using the Tasha's Custom Lineage option. Custom Lineage would let you have 18 Intelligence with the Fey Touched feat, but otherwise your starting stats probably have a 16 in Dex and a 17 in intelligence at this point. Silent Image, Color Spray, Sleep, Fog Cloud, and Shield should be among your spells. Probably Mind Sliver, Minor Illusion, and Prestidigitation as cantrips.
Your first priority with leveling up is to reach 18 Intelligence, and your second priority is to reach 20. Excessive multiclassing to nab features is a distraction you can't afford as a caster, especially one that focuses on save-based spells like Illusions. Consider Fey Touched or Shadow Touched at Wizard 4, and an ASI for +2 Intelligence at Wizard 8.
At this point, on the cusp of Tier 3 play, you should have a good sense of whether you enjoy being a Wizard who can bonus hide and sometimes sneak attack for 1d4+1d6+3 damage, or whether you're itching to be more of a Rogue and get up in people's faces. If the casting is working well for you, stick with Wizard levels, more high level spells sooner, more Arcane Recovery Slots, getting closer to your level 14 Illusory Reality feature... all that sounds good! Your Intelligence is 20, so now you can afford to do things like take Resilient (Con) to bring Constitution up a little and get Con saves; Warcaster for better concentration and reactionary illusions; Metamagic Adept for some longer or quicker illusions; or just +2 Dex ASI to start bringing up your AC beyond the 16 it's been sitting at.
If you want to pivot to more Rogue levels though, you have a choice: Arcane Trickster will keep (slowly) increasing your spellcasting progression, but honestly, isn't very exciting until Trickster 9 (and even that's not that cool). Soulknife is arguably cooler, but won't match with your dream to use a double-bladed scimitar, and too many levels of it will let your caster levels fall behind. Instead.... what about leaving Rogue at 2, and instead picking up some Fighter levels!? Right at Fighter 1, with Defensive fighting style, you unlock the ability to bump your AC up to 18 by wearing (Mithral?) Half Plate, or even 20 if you're willing to hold a Shield in tough fights where substance matters more than style. At Fighter 2, Action Surge , which is GREAT for casters by letting you throw around two action spells in a single round, or cast an illusion and attack! At Fighter 3.... I'd suggest either Echo Knight (very much fits your theme) or Eldritch Knight (sucks until 7 and doesn't fit your theme, but at least it gives you spell slot progression?). I don't think you honestly need more than 3 or 4 levels of Fighter, a Rogue 2/Echo Knight 4/Illusionist 14 would be a pretty cool end build. You might prioritize Revenant Blade (+1 Dex, AC is now 19 in Mithral Half Plate) and Slasher or Skill Expert (+1 Dex) as your last two feats?
Level 20, you've got the casting of a 14th level illusionist, which means you're missing 8th and 9th level spells but have plenty of slots for other spell levels. You've got all the fun illusion features from the Illusionist subclass... or if you went Bladesinger (don't take Revenant Blade, don't wear medium armor, but do take Dual Wielder and then an ASI for +2 Dex), you're a beastly melee combatant with great AC and powerful strikes, high mobility, and frequently weave illusions in between your attacks. You conjure an illusory duplicate of yourself in combat, which at any moment you can swap positions with, or attack from. And you hide easily with a bonus action, so when you go Invisible or conjure up shadows or fog clouds or illusory boulders, you can take full advantage of not just being concealed but actually being hidden.
Gish characters (mixed casting and melee attacks) are hard to build, there's no getting around it. You're not as good of a rogue as you could be. You're not as good of a wizard as you could be. You're not as good of a fighter as you could be. But, that being said, I think that Rogue 2, Echo Knight 3, and Bladesinger or Illusionist all fit together to make a pretty nifty illusion-based character.
Hmmm i had never considered throwing another class in the mix but I like what you're saying. The extra action is extremely useful and the bump in AC sounds really nice. I don't know anything about echo knight but this sounds really cool and a lot like what I am going for. Thank you! I feel like I reslly know what direction I want my build to go now.
So at what level should i blend in fighter? Should i go rogue 2, wiz 3, then add my first level of fighter? What would you suggest?
There's several good spells that will help you hide or distract opponents in combat, both actual Illusion school spells like Color Spray or Silent Image, but also spells like Fog Cloud that you mentioned or Sleep that can still feel tricky and illusion-y. Don't feel like you have to take only Illusion spells, if there's others available that help you sneak around and ambush people. But it does sound like you're more in melee and ranged attacks combined with control/distraction spells, and not as interested in damaging enemies directly with spells, which... good, sounds like Illusionist could be the right concept for you!
There's feats that could help you be flexible in melee vs. ranged and get several attacks per round, like Crossbow Expert. But the pressure to take more and more feats (why take Crossbow Expert, without Sharpshooter too?) might push you to taking fewer spellcasting class levels than you're interested in and more Rogue levels, so I'm not sure if that's good advice to give you. As an Arcane Trickster 4 with 17 Dex and Crossbow Expert, you're going to make one or two attacks per round with that Crossbow, and have Illusion (like Silent Image and Color Spray) and Enchantment (like Sleep)spells, but not really have a good way to both cast spells and attack on the same rounds. It'll leave you feeling more like a normal Rogue, who sometimes casts Illusions, and not really like a powerful mage. Dual Wielding Daggers or a Dagger and a Scimitar is good, and compete much less with you improving your spellcasting ability score.
Honestly, the Bladesinger would be a really good class for you, if you can accept using a Scimitar and Dagger instead of a double-bladed scimitar. The Bladesinger lets you get multiple attacks at Wizard 6, lets you cast cantrips the same round as you attack (which is pretty hard to do), is fast and mobile with bonus speed, and is really good at keeping up concentration on their spells (which many Illusions require concentration). Being able to attack, cast Minor Illusion, and then Bonus Action Hide behind it is every bit the cool combo that Jegpeg mentioned.
But the Illusionist is fine too. Minor Illusion making noises AND images is a huge improvement to the spell, and at level 6 being able to use Disguise Self for multiple disguises, or just enchant your hat or whatever with Magic Mouth to constantly change its triggers and messages for the rest of forever, is pretty fun. So let's just build you a Rogue/Illusionist.
I'd start play with two levels of rogue in your build already, so that you have bonus action Hide available. But, for your other two or three levels, be a Wizard (Illusionist) or Wizard (Bladesinger). No feats yet... unless instead of being a Moon Elf, you instead want to build your Moon Elf using the Tasha's Custom Lineage option. Custom Lineage would let you have 18 Intelligence with the Fey Touched feat, but otherwise your starting stats probably have a 16 in Dex and a 17 in intelligence at this point. Silent Image, Color Spray, Sleep, Fog Cloud, and Shield should be among your spells. Probably Mind Sliver, Minor Illusion, and Prestidigitation as cantrips.
Your first priority with leveling up is to reach 18 Intelligence, and your second priority is to reach 20. Excessive multiclassing to nab features is a distraction you can't afford as a caster, especially one that focuses on save-based spells like Illusions. Consider Fey Touched or Shadow Touched at Wizard 4, and an ASI for +2 Intelligence at Wizard 8.
At this point, on the cusp of Tier 3 play, you should have a good sense of whether you enjoy being a Wizard who can bonus hide and sometimes sneak attack for 1d4+1d6+3 damage, or whether you're itching to be more of a Rogue and get up in people's faces. If the casting is working well for you, stick with Wizard levels, more high level spells sooner, more Arcane Recovery Slots, getting closer to your level 14 Illusory Reality feature... all that sounds good! Your Intelligence is 20, so now you can afford to do things like take Resilient (Con) to bring Constitution up a little and get Con saves; Warcaster for better concentration and reactionary illusions; Metamagic Adept for some longer or quicker illusions; or just +2 Dex ASI to start bringing up your AC beyond the 16 it's been sitting at.
If you want to pivot to more Rogue levels though, you have a choice: Arcane Trickster will keep (slowly) increasing your spellcasting progression, but honestly, isn't very exciting until Trickster 9 (and even that's not that cool). Soulknife is arguably cooler, but won't match with your dream to use a double-bladed scimitar, and too many levels of it will let your caster levels fall behind. Instead.... what about leaving Rogue at 2, and instead picking up some Fighter levels!? Right at Fighter 1, with Defensive fighting style, you unlock the ability to bump your AC up to 18 by wearing (Mithral?) Half Plate, or even 20 if you're willing to hold a Shield in tough fights where substance matters more than style. At Fighter 2, Action Surge , which is GREAT for casters by letting you throw around two action spells in a single round, or cast an illusion and attack! At Fighter 3.... I'd suggest either Echo Knight (very much fits your theme) or Eldritch Knight (sucks until 7 and doesn't fit your theme, but at least it gives you spell slot progression?). I don't think you honestly need more than 3 or 4 levels of Fighter, a Rogue 2/Echo Knight 4/Illusionist 14 would be a pretty cool end build. You might prioritize Revenant Blade (+1 Dex, AC is now 19 in Mithral Half Plate) and Slasher or Skill Expert (+1 Dex) as your last two feats?
Level 20, you've got the casting of a 14th level illusionist, which means you're missing 8th and 9th level spells but have plenty of slots for other spell levels. You've got all the fun illusion features from the Illusionist subclass... or if you went Bladesinger (don't take Revenant Blade, don't wear medium armor, but do take Dual Wielder and then an ASI for +2 Dex), you're a beastly melee combatant with great AC and powerful strikes, high mobility, and frequently weave illusions in between your attacks. You conjure an illusory duplicate of yourself in combat, which at any moment you can swap positions with, or attack from. And you hide easily with a bonus action, so when you go Invisible or conjure up shadows or fog clouds or illusory boulders, you can take full advantage of not just being concealed but actually being hidden.
Gish characters (mixed casting and melee attacks) are hard to build, there's no getting around it. You're not as good of a rogue as you could be. You're not as good of a wizard as you could be. You're not as good of a fighter as you could be. But, that being said, I think that Rogue 2, Echo Knight 3, and Bladesinger or Illusionist all fit together to make a pretty nifty illusion-based character.
Hmmm i had never considered throwing another class in the mix but I like what you're saying. The extra action is extremely useful and the bump in AC sounds really nice. I don't know anything about echo knight but this sounds really cool and a lot like what I am going for. Thank you! I feel like I reslly know what direction I want my build to go now.
So at what level should i blend in fighter? Should i go rogue 2, wiz 3, then add my first level of fighter? What would you suggest?
Some of that will depend on what you want your saves and starting equipment to be. Starting Fighter gives you heavy armor (which may make you MAD if you stress losing speed until you get [magic item]Plate, Mithral[/spell] or the like) and constitution saves. If that sounds good, then you'll want to start Fighter. If you don't care about either or are content to get concentration check help from another source, I'd probably start rogue. If you start fighter or rogue, you'll probably want to go at most two levels in it, then likely 5 in Wizard to get an ASI and into 3rd level spells (6 for Extra Attack if you go Bladesinger, though that doesn't sound likely). You can the revisit or add fighter or rogue. I'd probably revisit wizard after a level or two, but at that point, it depends most on what you feel like you need the most. You could go rogue 2/wizard 5/fighter 3 (or 4)/Wizard X to get everything online as fast as possible, with a heavy armor path of fighter 1/wizard 5/rogue 2/fighter 3/Wizard X. Of course, some of this also depends on what flavor you want your character to have.
You could go full martial until you have all of your fighter and rogue levels before branching off to wizard, relying on the echo knight and the cantrip from the race to give you a magical feel before taking the deep dive.
From what you were saying before, I think that you care most about (1) being a "caster", not a martial character with magic tricks, and (2) you care about being sneaky. Like I said, there's a lot of compromise when you're building a "gish" instead of a pure caster, but I think that starting off with fighter levels too early will make you feel like you aren't an illusionist so much as a weird fighter. I think you're okay to leave Fighter until Character level 11, and settle for Mithral medium armor instead of Plate. You're not an Echo Knight until Fighter 3, just a regular dude in platemail, and you're not very sneaky (bonus action Hides) until Rogue 2, so if you try to get those out of the way before focusing on wizard levels.... you're a sixth level character before you even start learning spells, and that doesn't sound like what you were describing.
If you notice you want to mix it up in combat more after character level 6 (Rogue 2/Wizard 4), and want to start taking Fighter right then instead of waiting for four more Wizard levels, that's fine... but part of why I suggested you put it off for four more levels is, Wizards accumulate lots of new spell slots very quickly at low levels, but then it starts to taper off with diminishing returns.
Wizard level 1: 2 total slots, up to first level spells
Wizard level 4: 7 total slots (250% increase), up to second level spells, Feat/ASI
Wizard level 8: 12 total slots (71% increase), up to fourth level spells, Feat/ASI
Wizard level 12: 16 total slots (33% increase), up to sixth level spells, Feat/ASI
Wizard level 14: 17 total slots (6% increase), up to seventh level spells
As you can see, getting to Wizard 4 is a huge number of slots better than Wizard 1, but getting to Wizard 8 is also a pretty decent number of slots/max spell levels better than 4 as well. After that... Wizard improvements start to slow down a little bit, where a Wizard 12 isn't throwing that many more spells in a day than a Wizard 8 is, so I think its a decent time to dabble with other classes if you think you're interested in that. You can deal with having a Mage Armor AC of 16 until Level 10 or 11, which can spike even higher to 21 with Shield, so I wouldn't be in a big rush to delay caster levels (and more spell slots for Shield) just to slip into Medium or Heavy armor (which might not even be Mithral yet) just for a couple more AC.
That, and you're only going to be able to be making melee attacks with Dexterity, and you want to be able to increase your Intelligence first and foremost, so you aren't wasting turns and spell slots casting spells that enemies save against. The Echo Knight has some cool illusion powers, but really, if you aren't making melee attacks then its just a fancy form of movement and a small AC buff from holding a Shield and armor with Defensive Fighting Style. think its better to leave that until Tier 3, after your Intelligence is 20, for you to start having room in your feat selection to take +2 Dexterity improvements or other things that will make you actually able to use that Echo Knight illusion more aggressively to actually make some melee attacks. That, and again, you might decide by Character level 11 that you're actually content just being a Wizard and don't want any fighter levels, or that you'd rather be more of a rogue instead.
If the Echo Knight does interest you as a primary character concept... Then I think an Echo Knight 4/Bladesinger 16 would be pretty cool, but I would just build it in the opposite direction to emphasize the fighting first, and definitely be a Bladesinger instead of an Illusionist. Skipping the rogue eventually gets you eighth-level spells and Constitution saves, and everything else a couple levels earlier... but man, being able to bonus-action-hide in your Fog Cloud would be pretty cool all through this build, so I dunno. Hard to see where it fits in, other than that I wish you had it by 20... maybe right at the end, and stop at Wizard 14?
Bladesinger 2/Echo Knight 4, with Dex at 16 and Intelligence at 18. Con probably at 14 or 15, depending how min-maxy you want to be.
Dex 16, Intelligence 18, Con probably 15
HP 44 (good-ish)
AC 15 in Studded Leather (poor), 19 when singing (3x/long rest) (good), 24 for a turn with a reaction using Shield (amazing, but not many slots to do this yet)
Wis (good) and Int (useless) saves
+6 to hit in melee with a Rapier (about -1 or -2 behind a pure fighter, but ok). 1d8+3
+7 to hit with spells / DC 15 (max for mages, good)
Blindfighting fighting style, so that you can throw up Fog Cloud and then terrorize enemies in it, move without them being able to OA you, nobody gets advantage against you for being invisible, etc.
3 first-level slots, able to recover a 4th with Arcane Recovery (not many at all, just enough to use Fog Cloud and/or an emergency Shield in each
Action Surge!
Second Wind (1d10+2 healing as a bonus action)
A familiar (a Bat would play nice with your Fog Cloud, or the Owl is popular as well. Opportunity Attacks on your familiar aren't a problem in the Fog Cloud, though, since enemies need to SEE you to make an OA, but you (often) don't need to SEE them to deliver a touch attack spell)
Can attack twice/Attack up to (con modifier, 2) times/long rest (up to one from you, one or two from the Echo)
The Shadow Touched feat, giving you Invisibility and Silent Image each once/long rest without a lot, or can be cast with slots
That's pretty cool! But it gets a lot better down the road!
At level 12 (Bladesinger 8/Echo Knight 4)
Dex 18, Intelligence 20, Con probably 15
HP 76 (good)
AC 17 in Mage Armor (ok), 22 when singing (4x/long rest) (v. good), 27 for a turn with a reaction using Shield (godlike)
Wis and Int saves
+8 to hit in melee with a Rapier (only -1 behind a pure fighter, good). 1d8+4
+9 to hit with spells / DC 17 (max for mages, good)
Blindfighting fighting style
4 first-level slots, 3 second-level slots, 3 third-level slots, 2 fourth-level slots, able to recover up to 4 slot levels with Arcane Recovery (enough that you have room to actually wear Mage Armor, reliably have a slot to spare for important Shields, use Fog Cloud every combat, and even have some other misc. spells left over through the day for interesting illusions or whatever.) Not quite "full caster" levels, but enough to where you feel like a mage who can cast spells throughout the day when you feel like it, not like a fighter that knows a couple tricks.
Can attack twice/Attack all day, or up to three times/Attack up to 2 times/long rest (up to two from you, one-four from the Echo). One of these attacks(from either position) can be a cantrip instead!
The Shadow Touched feat, giving you Invisibility and Silent Image each once/long rest without a lot, or can be cast with slots
ASI +2 Intelligence at Wizard 4, then ASI +2 Dexterity at Wizard 8
At level 20 (Bladesinger 16/Echo Knight 4)
Dex 20, Intelligence 20, Con 16
HP 148 (good)
AC 18 in Mage Armor (ok), 24 when singing (6x/long rest) (amazing), 29 for a turn with a reaction using Shield (godlike)
Wis, Int, and Con (yes!) saves
+11 to hit in melee with a Rapier (max for fighters, good). 1d8+5, +5 more when singing!
+11 to hit with spells / DC 19 (max for mages, good
Blindfighting fighting style
4 first-level slots, 3 second-level slots, 3-third level slots, 3 fourth-level slots, 2 fifth-level slots, 1 sixth-level slot, 1 seventh-level slot, 1 eighth-level slot. Able to recover up to eight slot levels (max sixth-level slot) with Arcane Recovery. Pretty much enough to feel like "full caster" slots, other than lacking ninth-level spells.
Can attack twice/Attack all day, or up to three times/Attack up to 3 times/long rest (up to two from you, one-four from the Echo). One attack can be a cantrip, from either location.
Song of Defense, to reduce damage as a reaction by 5x/slot level sacrificed (probably Shield is usually better, but sometimes not when hit by a spell)
The Shadow Touched feat, giving you Invisibility and Silent Image each once/long rest without a lot, or can be cast with slots
ASI +2 Intelligence at Wizard 4, then ASI +2 Dexterity at Wizard 8, then ASI +2 Dex at Wizard 12, then Resilient (Con) at Wizard 16
Awesome. Yeah i think I'll go rogue 2 and wizard 8 and see how i feel from there. I like the idea of extra actions later on but yeah id like to have a good amount of slots without waiting too much. This sounds perfect, thanks a lot chicken_champ.
Im considering making two character sheets and seeing how it will play out by lvl 10.
What lvls should I get feats and when to asi?
I know revenant blade is a must but what other feats may have the best synergy?
I am making an illusion wizard with rogue skills.
A sneaky infiltrator and thief with a good heart.
So the requirements for my vision is at least 14 lvls in wizard (want to make real illusions) and a double scimitar main weapon.
He is either a Moon Elf (Is moon elf homebrew or official?) Or Valenar Elf.
I want some good utility outside of battle, but also as effective and feared in a fight as possible.
I originally intended to just dip into rogue 2-3 lvls but if more is better I will gladly do that.
Some very comprehensive advice would be awesome :3
So you need INT for wizard, DEX for rogue, and STR for double-scimitar main weapon.
Any reason not to go Rogue with Arcane Trickster?
Do you want to be effective at level 1, 5, 10 or wait until 20?
You don't need strength, with the Revenant Blade feat. And, Rogues and spellcasters are among the best classes to benefit from what Revenant Blade has to offer (two weapon fighting while keeping a hand free for casting).
The "School of Illusion" Wizard subclass doesn't give you any real combat features until level 10, and even then, it's only once/short rest. The 14th level feature is pretty cool for making you really good at creating lots of walls and obstructions with lower level illusion spells, but other than that, it too is mostly an out-of-combat ability. Which is fine, I think Illusionists are really great for solving puzzles and social encounters in fun ways! Just know that the power of illusion spells, and the School of Illusion subclass, mostly comes down to your creativity as a player and your DM's willingness to say "yes" to your creative solutions, and not so much on features that you can optimize.
That isn't to say that there aren't plenty of useful illusions for combat... just that the School of Illusion Wizard isn't particularly better at using them than anyone else is, the spells are their own feature in a way. If it's illusions in combat that excite you, and blending them with fancy sword work, then I might suggest that you focus more on being an Arcane Trickster Rogue, Echo Knight Fighter, Trickery Cleric, Glamour or Whispers Bard, Shadow Monk, or Archfey Warlock, because they all have features more centered around fighting than the Wizard does.
If you give an idea of what level you're starting at, I can give some more specific advice that doesn't assume any bizarre multiclasses that aren't any fun to play until they come together!
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Moon Elves have the statistics of Sun Elves (High Elves), but with bluish-graish-purplish skins instead of yellow. (I think)
I agree with chicken champ but I would add another option if you want ot be a wizard effective at fighting:
A Bladesong wizard is a wizard designed for melee combat, your blade song gives to decent AC and advantage on con saves. While you don't get the illusionist subclass features could could take and use mostly illusion spells.
I like the idea of attack from hiding for sneak attack, second attack replaced by minor illusion of a boulder, move behind the illusorary boulder and bonus action hide. Rinse and repeat.
They are excellent, yes... but you can't use Bladesinging while wielding a double-bladed scimitar, so I left that off the list. You could with a regular Scimitar, or even while wielding two Scimitars, but...
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.
Thank you for your answer! Chicken_champ
So if the illusions cant help a ton in combat thats fine, I like the concept of my mage having access to all kinds of powerful magics, with illusions to be his specialty. Maybe CC and having a small handful of big hitter spells.
I'm starting at level 4 or 5 and intend him to max out eventually. I know multiclassing can be tough to work out late game but ill suffer a bit if i need to.
Id like to be able to get close sometimes for a sneak attack(maybe cloud of fog?) and have a quick outing (misty step, disengage etc.) And have a good ranged game.
Maybe I'm asking for too much but id like to make this character happen
Yeah bladesong wont work for me..
but i love that combat strategy
Okay, sounds doable for sure.
There's several good spells that will help you hide or distract opponents in combat, both actual Illusion school spells like Color Spray or Silent Image, but also spells like Fog Cloud that you mentioned or Sleep that can still feel tricky and illusion-y. Don't feel like you have to take only Illusion spells, if there's others available that help you sneak around and ambush people. But it does sound like you're more in melee and ranged attacks combined with control/distraction spells, and not as interested in damaging enemies directly with spells, which... good, sounds like Illusionist could be the right concept for you!
There's feats that could help you be flexible in melee vs. ranged and get several attacks per round, like Crossbow Expert. But the pressure to take more and more feats (why take Crossbow Expert, without Sharpshooter too?) might push you to taking fewer spellcasting class levels than you're interested in and more Rogue levels, so I'm not sure if that's good advice to give you. As an Arcane Trickster 4 with 17 Dex and Crossbow Expert, you're going to make one or two attacks per round with that Crossbow, and have Illusion (like Silent Image and Color Spray) and Enchantment (like Sleep)spells, but not really have a good way to both cast spells and attack on the same rounds. It'll leave you feeling more like a normal Rogue, who sometimes casts Illusions, and not really like a powerful mage. Dual Wielding Daggers or a Dagger and a Scimitar is good, and compete much less with you improving your spellcasting ability score.
Honestly, the Bladesinger would be a really good class for you, if you can accept using a Scimitar and Dagger instead of a double-bladed scimitar. The Bladesinger lets you get multiple attacks at Wizard 6, lets you cast cantrips the same round as you attack (which is pretty hard to do), is fast and mobile with bonus speed, and is really good at keeping up concentration on their spells (which many Illusions require concentration). Being able to attack, cast Minor Illusion, and then Bonus Action Hide behind it is every bit the cool combo that Jegpeg mentioned.
But the Illusionist is fine too. Minor Illusion making noises AND images is a huge improvement to the spell, and at level 6 being able to use Disguise Self for multiple disguises, or just enchant your hat or whatever with Magic Mouth to constantly change its triggers and messages for the rest of forever, is pretty fun. So let's just build you a Rogue/Illusionist.
I'd start play with two levels of rogue in your build already, so that you have bonus action Hide available. But, for your other two or three levels, be a Wizard (Illusionist) or Wizard (Bladesinger). No feats yet... unless instead of being a Moon Elf, you instead want to build your Moon Elf using the Tasha's Custom Lineage option. Custom Lineage would let you have 18 Intelligence with the Fey Touched feat, but otherwise your starting stats probably have a 16 in Dex and a 17 in intelligence at this point. Silent Image, Color Spray, Sleep, Fog Cloud, and Shield should be among your spells. Probably Mind Sliver, Minor Illusion, and Prestidigitation as cantrips.
Your first priority with leveling up is to reach 18 Intelligence, and your second priority is to reach 20. Excessive multiclassing to nab features is a distraction you can't afford as a caster, especially one that focuses on save-based spells like Illusions. Consider Fey Touched or Shadow Touched at Wizard 4, and an ASI for +2 Intelligence at Wizard 8.
At this point, on the cusp of Tier 3 play, you should have a good sense of whether you enjoy being a Wizard who can bonus hide and sometimes sneak attack for 1d4+1d6+3 damage, or whether you're itching to be more of a Rogue and get up in people's faces. If the casting is working well for you, stick with Wizard levels, more high level spells sooner, more Arcane Recovery Slots, getting closer to your level 14 Illusory Reality feature... all that sounds good! Your Intelligence is 20, so now you can afford to do things like take Resilient (Con) to bring Constitution up a little and get Con saves; Warcaster for better concentration and reactionary illusions; Metamagic Adept for some longer or quicker illusions; or just +2 Dex ASI to start bringing up your AC beyond the 16 it's been sitting at.
If you want to pivot to more Rogue levels though, you have a choice: Arcane Trickster will keep (slowly) increasing your spellcasting progression, but honestly, isn't very exciting until Trickster 9 (and even that's not that cool). Soulknife is arguably cooler, but won't match with your dream to use a double-bladed scimitar, and too many levels of it will let your caster levels fall behind. Instead.... what about leaving Rogue at 2, and instead picking up some Fighter levels!? Right at Fighter 1, with Defensive fighting style, you unlock the ability to bump your AC up to 18 by wearing (Mithral?) Half Plate, or even 20 if you're willing to hold a Shield in tough fights where substance matters more than style. At Fighter 2, Action Surge , which is GREAT for casters by letting you throw around two action spells in a single round, or cast an illusion and attack! At Fighter 3.... I'd suggest either Echo Knight (very much fits your theme) or Eldritch Knight (sucks until 7 and doesn't fit your theme, but at least it gives you spell slot progression?). I don't think you honestly need more than 3 or 4 levels of Fighter, a Rogue 2/Echo Knight 4/Illusionist 14 would be a pretty cool end build. You might prioritize Revenant Blade (+1 Dex, AC is now 19 in Mithral Half Plate) and Slasher or Skill Expert (+1 Dex) as your last two feats?
Level 20, you've got the casting of a 14th level illusionist, which means you're missing 8th and 9th level spells but have plenty of slots for other spell levels. You've got all the fun illusion features from the Illusionist subclass... or if you went Bladesinger (don't take Revenant Blade, don't wear medium armor, but do take Dual Wielder and then an ASI for +2 Dex), you're a beastly melee combatant with great AC and powerful strikes, high mobility, and frequently weave illusions in between your attacks. You conjure an illusory duplicate of yourself in combat, which at any moment you can swap positions with, or attack from. And you hide easily with a bonus action, so when you go Invisible or conjure up shadows or fog clouds or illusory boulders, you can take full advantage of not just being concealed but actually being hidden.
Gish characters (mixed casting and melee attacks) are hard to build, there's no getting around it. You're not as good of a rogue as you could be. You're not as good of a wizard as you could be. You're not as good of a fighter as you could be. But, that being said, I think that Rogue 2, Echo Knight 3, and Bladesinger or Illusionist all fit together to make a pretty nifty illusion-based character.
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Hmmm i had never considered throwing another class in the mix but I like what you're saying. The extra action is extremely useful and the bump in AC sounds really nice. I don't know anything about echo knight but this sounds really cool and a lot like what I am going for. Thank you! I feel like I reslly know what direction I want my build to go now.
So at what level should i blend in fighter? Should i go rogue 2, wiz 3, then add my first level of fighter? What would you suggest?
Some of that will depend on what you want your saves and starting equipment to be. Starting Fighter gives you heavy armor (which may make you MAD if you stress losing speed until you get [magic item]Plate, Mithral[/spell] or the like) and constitution saves. If that sounds good, then you'll want to start Fighter. If you don't care about either or are content to get concentration check help from another source, I'd probably start rogue. If you start fighter or rogue, you'll probably want to go at most two levels in it, then likely 5 in Wizard to get an ASI and into 3rd level spells (6 for Extra Attack if you go Bladesinger, though that doesn't sound likely). You can the revisit or add fighter or rogue. I'd probably revisit wizard after a level or two, but at that point, it depends most on what you feel like you need the most. You could go rogue 2/wizard 5/fighter 3 (or 4)/Wizard X to get everything online as fast as possible, with a heavy armor path of fighter 1/wizard 5/rogue 2/fighter 3/Wizard X. Of course, some of this also depends on what flavor you want your character to have.
You could go full martial until you have all of your fighter and rogue levels before branching off to wizard, relying on the echo knight and the cantrip from the race to give you a magical feel before taking the deep dive.
From what you were saying before, I think that you care most about (1) being a "caster", not a martial character with magic tricks, and (2) you care about being sneaky. Like I said, there's a lot of compromise when you're building a "gish" instead of a pure caster, but I think that starting off with fighter levels too early will make you feel like you aren't an illusionist so much as a weird fighter. I think you're okay to leave Fighter until Character level 11, and settle for Mithral medium armor instead of Plate. You're not an Echo Knight until Fighter 3, just a regular dude in platemail, and you're not very sneaky (bonus action Hides) until Rogue 2, so if you try to get those out of the way before focusing on wizard levels.... you're a sixth level character before you even start learning spells, and that doesn't sound like what you were describing.
If you notice you want to mix it up in combat more after character level 6 (Rogue 2/Wizard 4), and want to start taking Fighter right then instead of waiting for four more Wizard levels, that's fine... but part of why I suggested you put it off for four more levels is, Wizards accumulate lots of new spell slots very quickly at low levels, but then it starts to taper off with diminishing returns.
As you can see, getting to Wizard 4 is a huge number of slots better than Wizard 1, but getting to Wizard 8 is also a pretty decent number of slots/max spell levels better than 4 as well. After that... Wizard improvements start to slow down a little bit, where a Wizard 12 isn't throwing that many more spells in a day than a Wizard 8 is, so I think its a decent time to dabble with other classes if you think you're interested in that. You can deal with having a Mage Armor AC of 16 until Level 10 or 11, which can spike even higher to 21 with Shield, so I wouldn't be in a big rush to delay caster levels (and more spell slots for Shield) just to slip into Medium or Heavy armor (which might not even be Mithral yet) just for a couple more AC.
That, and you're only going to be able to be making melee attacks with Dexterity, and you want to be able to increase your Intelligence first and foremost, so you aren't wasting turns and spell slots casting spells that enemies save against. The Echo Knight has some cool illusion powers, but really, if you aren't making melee attacks then its just a fancy form of movement and a small AC buff from holding a Shield and armor with Defensive Fighting Style. think its better to leave that until Tier 3, after your Intelligence is 20, for you to start having room in your feat selection to take +2 Dexterity improvements or other things that will make you actually able to use that Echo Knight illusion more aggressively to actually make some melee attacks. That, and again, you might decide by Character level 11 that you're actually content just being a Wizard and don't want any fighter levels, or that you'd rather be more of a rogue instead.
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If the Echo Knight does interest you as a primary character concept... Then I think an Echo Knight 4/Bladesinger 16 would be pretty cool, but I would just build it in the opposite direction to emphasize the fighting first, and definitely be a Bladesinger instead of an Illusionist. Skipping the rogue eventually gets you eighth-level spells and Constitution saves, and everything else a couple levels earlier... but man, being able to bonus-action-hide in your Fog Cloud would be pretty cool all through this build, so I dunno. Hard to see where it fits in, other than that I wish you had it by 20... maybe right at the end, and stop at Wizard 14?
Bladesinger 2/Echo Knight 4, with Dex at 16 and Intelligence at 18. Con probably at 14 or 15, depending how min-maxy you want to be.
That's pretty cool! But it gets a lot better down the road!
At level 12 (Bladesinger 8/Echo Knight 4)
At level 20 (Bladesinger 16/Echo Knight 4)
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Awesome. Yeah i think I'll go rogue 2 and wizard 8 and see how i feel from there. I like the idea of extra actions later on but yeah id like to have a good amount of slots without waiting too much. This sounds perfect, thanks a lot chicken_champ.
Im considering making two character sheets and seeing how it will play out by lvl 10.
What lvls should I get feats and when to asi?
I know revenant blade is a must but what other feats may have the best synergy?
And I love that blade singer echo night strategy so much i think I'll save it for an alternate character lol
But im married to making illusions real for this guy.
Seriously though that bladesinging is sounding nice in the future.
Also where am I getting the medium armor from? Rogue has medium armor or? I thought only light armor
Fighter grants medium armor proficiency when you multiclass into it.