I'm currently a level 4 battle master fighter (half-elf) and I'm thinking of multiclassing into rogue after level 5, once I get the extra attack. If the campaign continues until level 20, I'm aiming for a fighter 16 / rogue 4 build (for the archetype and extra ASI/feat, since I don't see any benefit in leveling up to 17 in fighter). I haven't quite decided on a rogue archetype yet, but I'm leaning towards swashbuckler.
Current stats (4d6 drop lowest):
STR- 18 DEX- 15 CON- 14 INT- 14 WIS- 12 CHA- 13
The current party is a goliath barbarian, a firbolg death cleric, and a tabaxi monk. My character was made pre-campaign and I was going for a more tank build, but both the barbarian and the cleric have a higher strength stat than me and I really wanted sneak attack damage.
Assuming the campaign continues for a while, what would be the most efficient way to level the character?
One thing to keep in mind with fighter/rogue, this combo has the highest possible ASI count at Fighter 8 (extra at fighter 6) and rogue 12 (extra at 10). This would give you 7 ASIs to throw at feats and stats allowing you a touch more flexibility that way at the expense of pigeonholing your build. You could go with ek8/at12 and possibly get sneak attack on war magic booming blades and your int is reasonable for that thought, but there are other options available (and you went battlemaster anyway). Keep in mind that you'll need a finesse weapon for sneak attack, likely meaning that you're either going rapier (1d8) or two weapon fighting with shortswords (1d6 each, or rapiers with the two weapon feat that allows you to ignore the light weapon restriction). I don't recall how important the bonus action is to battlemaster, so I don't know if two weapon is a viable option there. Finesse doesn't mean that you have to use dex for attack, so your strength being higher is just fine. Since you don't seem as worried about tanking, maybe you can go Mobile Feat and Mage Slayer feat to work on limiting spellcasters and other ranged attackers (if you've gone dueling fighting style or defensive, that could be quite interesting. If you've gone great weapon fighting style, find out if you can switch or go with a different class for your MC. That might be the roll that your monk is filling, though. I guess it would be helpful to know what archetype you're thinking of for rogue and what you're trying to accomplish exactly with you're build. Are you planning on fighting along side the barbarian so you have advantage? Are you content filling in wherever is needed? How important are out of combat encounters to you and/or your campaign?
Let's compare what you are giving up and what you are gaining (I'm going to include the pros and cons that cancel out to be thorough).
Cons, what you miss out on from fighter:
2nd action surge per short rest (level 17)
3rd indomitable per long rest (level 17)
Superiority dice becoming d12s (level 18)
7th ASI (level 19)
4th attack per action (level 20)
4 HP from second wind per short rest (1 per level)
Pros, what you gain from multiclassing rogue:
1 rogue skill proficiency (level 1)
Thieves' tools proficiency (level 1)
2 expertise (level 1)
2d6 Sneak attack per turn (level 1/3)
Thieves' cant (level 1)
Cunning action (level 2)
2-3 roguish archetype features
1st (7 total) ASI (level 4)
Losing 4th attack and especially second action surge is not made up for with sneak attack.
Basically, you will be sacrificing combat efficiency for non-combat versatility slightly depending on which rogue subclass you take. Action surge and indomitable are slightly better than an ASI (you will still have 6 at this point and your stats are already good anyway). I say take 3 levels rogue for the cunning action and subclass.
As for which subclass:
Arcane trickster can cast spells. You will probably find better use for these out of combat than in it (since you will be mostly limited to illusion and enchantment spells). Not much reason to take AT over a level of wizard honestly (just the sneak attack die).
Assassin gets 2 more tools, and can auto crit a surprised enemy. Good nova damage, but requires the entire party to be sneaky to maximize.
Inquisitive would make you somewhat of a tactician. Look for hidden enemies or enemy weaknesses as a bonus action. Be able to use sneak attack without advantage. And can tell if you are being lied to.
Mastermind combined with battle master makes an excellent field commander/warlord build. You can give your allies advantage amd other bonuses on their attacks. You also get 2 more tools and 2 languages, and can perfectly fake an accent.
Scout gives 2 free expertise and reaction disengage, good for an archer build.
Swashbuckler combos well with the fighter's extra attacks to hit multiple enemies safely, but it's usually better to focus on 1 thread until it is dead, so may not help that much. Can also use sneak attack if your enemy is the only thing near you. And a slight bonus to initiative.
Thief lets you use an item as a bonus action (healing potion for example is good), also improves climbing speed.
I like inquisitive, mastermind, or Scout (only if archer) for this multiclass.
Let's compare what you are giving up and what you are gaining (I'm going to include the pros and cons that cancel out to be thorough).
Cons, what you miss out on from fighter:
2nd action surge per short rest (level 17)
3rd indomitable per long rest (level 17)
Superiority dice becoming d12s (level 18)
7th ASI (level 19)
4th attack per action (level 20)
4 HP from second wind per short rest (1 per level)
Pros, what you gain from multiclassing rogue:
1 rogue skill proficiency (level 1)
Thieves' tools proficiency (level 1)
2 expertise (level 1)
2d6 Sneak attack per turn (level 1/3)
Thieves' cant (level 1)
Cunning action (level 2)
2-3 roguish archetype features
1st (7 total) ASI (level 4)
Losing 4th attack and especially second action surge is not made up for with sneak attack.
Basically, you will be sacrificing combat efficiency for non-combat versatility slightly depending on which rogue subclass you take. Action surge and indomitable are slightly better than an ASI (you will still have 6 at this point and your stats are already good anyway). I say take 3 levels rogue for the cunning action and subclass.
As for which subclass:
Arcane trickster can cast spells. You will probably find better use for these out of combat than in it (since you will be mostly limited to illusion and enchantment spells). Not much reason to take AT over a level of wizard honestly (just the sneak attack die).
Assassin gets 2 more tools, and can auto crit a surprised enemy. Good nova damage, but requires the entire party to be sneaky to maximize.
Inquisitive would make you somewhat of a tactician. Look for hidden enemies or enemy weaknesses as a bonus action. Be able to use sneak attack without advantage. And can tell if you are being lied to.
Mastermind combined with battle master makes an excellent field commander/warlord build. You can give your allies advantage amd other bonuses on their attacks. You also get 2 more tools and 2 languages, and can perfectly fake an accent.
Scout gives 2 free expertise and reaction disengage, good for an archer build.
Swashbuckler combos well with the fighter's extra attacks to hit multiple enemies safely, but it's usually better to focus on 1 thread until it is dead, so may not help that much. Can also use sneak attack if your enemy is the only thing near you. And a slight bonus to initiative.
Thief lets you use an item as a bonus action (healing potion for example is good), also improves climbing speed.
I like inquisitive, mastermind, or Scout (only if archer) for this multiclass.
He wouldn't get a 7th ASI, it would be a 6th. 4,6,8,12,16,19 for fighter, swap 19 to rogue 4 and it's still 6. The only way I know to get seven is fighter 8, rogue 12. Fighter: 4,6,8 and rogue 4,8,10,12. Otherwise, good analysis.
He wouldn't get a 7th ASI, it would be a 6th. 4,6,8,12,16,19 for fighter, swap 19 to rogue 4 and it's still 6. The only way I know to get seven is fighter 8, rogue 12. Fighter: 4,6,8 and rogue 4,8,10,12. Otherwise, good analysis.
Fighters get an ASI at level 14 too. Every class gets 5 normally (every 4 levels except 19 instead of 20). Rogues get one extra ASI at level 10. Fighters get 2 extra ASIs ant level 6 and 14.
The main reason I pointed out the number of ASIs was to correct your mistake. And I double checked before I posted it. And I triple checked before posting this.
One thing to keep in mind with fighter/rogue, this combo has the highest possible ASI count at Fighter 8 (extra at fighter 6) and rogue 12 (extra at 10). This would give you 7 ASIs to throw at feats and stats allowing you a touch more flexibility that way at the expense of pigeonholing your build. You could go with ek8/at12 and possibly get sneak attack on war magic booming blades and your int is reasonable for that thought, but there are other options available (and you went battlemaster anyway). Keep in mind that you'll need a finesse weapon for sneak attack, likely meaning that you're either going rapier (1d8) or two weapon fighting with shortswords (1d6 each, or rapiers with the two weapon feat that allows you to ignore the light weapon restriction). I don't recall how important the bonus action is to battlemaster, so I don't know if two weapon is a viable option there. Finesse doesn't mean that you have to use dex for attack, so your strength being higher is just fine. Since you don't seem as worried about tanking, maybe you can go Mobile Feat and Mage Slayer feat to work on limiting spellcasters and other ranged attackers (if you've gone dueling fighting style or defensive, that could be quite interesting. If you've gone great weapon fighting style, find out if you can switch or go with a different class for your MC. That might be the roll that your monk is filling, though. I guess it would be helpful to know what archetype you're thinking of for rogue and what you're trying to accomplish exactly with you're build. Are you planning on fighting along side the barbarian so you have advantage? Are you content filling in wherever is needed? How important are out of combat encounters to you and/or your campaign?
I'd prefer this character to be primarily a fighter, but that's definitely an interesting idea for a future build. There's a lot of fun feats you can play around with when you have 7 ASIs.
In terms of weapons, I took the dueling style with a rapier at first level so that's pretty in line with what I need for a rogue anyways. I don't have a specific combat plan (especially since we have several potential new/returning members who might change the party dynamic over the next few months) but I've definitely been taking advantage of flanking, which should mesh well with sneak attack. I'd say there was about a 60/40 rp combat split- we usually have at least one encounter per session, but there's definitely a lot of out of combat encounters too. I'm not particularly interested in optimizing any stats for it though, I think any deficiencies my character might have in the area would make for more interesting roleplay.
Let's compare what you are giving up and what you are gaining (I'm going to include the pros and cons that cancel out to be thorough).
Cons, what you miss out on from fighter:
2nd action surge per short rest (level 17)
3rd indomitable per long rest (level 17)
Superiority dice becoming d12s (level 18)
7th ASI (level 19)
4th attack per action (level 20)
4 HP from second wind per short rest (1 per level)
Pros, what you gain from multiclassing rogue:
1 rogue skill proficiency (level 1)
Thieves' tools proficiency (level 1)
2 expertise (level 1)
2d6 Sneak attack per turn (level 1/3)
Thieves' cant (level 1)
Cunning action (level 2)
2-3 roguish archetype features
1st (7 total) ASI (level 4)
Losing 4th attack and especially second action surge is not made up for with sneak attack.
Basically, you will be sacrificing combat efficiency for non-combat versatility slightly depending on which rogue subclass you take. Action surge and indomitable are slightly better than an ASI (you will still have 6 at this point and your stats are already good anyway). I say take 3 levels rogue for the cunning action and subclass.
As for which subclass:
Arcane trickster can cast spells. You will probably find better use for these out of combat than in it (since you will be mostly limited to illusion and enchantment spells). Not much reason to take AT over a level of wizard honestly (just the sneak attack die).
Assassin gets 2 more tools, and can auto crit a surprised enemy. Good nova damage, but requires the entire party to be sneaky to maximize.
Inquisitive would make you somewhat of a tactician. Look for hidden enemies or enemy weaknesses as a bonus action. Be able to use sneak attack without advantage. And can tell if you are being lied to.
Mastermind combined with battle master makes an excellent field commander/warlord build. You can give your allies advantage amd other bonuses on their attacks. You also get 2 more tools and 2 languages, and can perfectly fake an accent.
Scout gives 2 free expertise and reaction disengage, good for an archer build.
Swashbuckler combos well with the fighter's extra attacks to hit multiple enemies safely, but it's usually better to focus on 1 thread until it is dead, so may not help that much. Can also use sneak attack if your enemy is the only thing near you. And a slight bonus to initiative.
Thief lets you use an item as a bonus action (healing potion for example is good), also improves climbing speed.
I like inquisitive, mastermind, or Scout (only if archer) for this multiclass.
I completely forgot about the second action surge and third indomitable at 17th. In that case, it definitely makes more sense to stop at three rogue levels overall. The only real benefit of that extra ASI would be another feat, and there's really only so many good ones. Two additional actions + three indomitables per rest seems like a much more powerful upgrade in the long run.
Swashbuckler might fit the character slightly better thematically, but I also really like the assassin's auto crit and the versatility of the mastermind. Definitely something to discuss with the dm later.
—
Going with the fighter 17 / rogue 3 build, what would be the best leveling order? I'd prefer to get the rogue archetype sooner rather than later, especially considering that most campaigns don't make it past level 18, but I don't want to delay any fighter features too much or be a liability to the team. Any further help greatly appreciated!
I'm currently a level 4 battle master fighter (half-elf) and I'm thinking of multiclassing into rogue after level 5, once I get the extra attack. If the campaign continues until level 20, I'm aiming for a fighter 16 / rogue 4 build (for the archetype and extra ASI/feat, since I don't see any benefit in leveling up to 17 in fighter). I haven't quite decided on a rogue archetype yet, but I'm leaning towards swashbuckler.
Current stats (4d6 drop lowest):
STR- 18 DEX- 15 CON- 14 INT- 14 WIS- 12 CHA- 13
The current party is a goliath barbarian, a firbolg death cleric, and a tabaxi monk. My character was made pre-campaign and I was going for a more tank build, but both the barbarian and the cleric have a higher strength stat than me and I really wanted sneak attack damage.
Assuming the campaign continues for a while, what would be the most efficient way to level the character?
One thing to keep in mind with fighter/rogue, this combo has the highest possible ASI count at Fighter 8 (extra at fighter 6) and rogue 12 (extra at 10). This would give you 7 ASIs to throw at feats and stats allowing you a touch more flexibility that way at the expense of pigeonholing your build. You could go with ek8/at12 and possibly get sneak attack on war magic booming blades and your int is reasonable for that thought, but there are other options available (and you went battlemaster anyway). Keep in mind that you'll need a finesse weapon for sneak attack, likely meaning that you're either going rapier (1d8) or two weapon fighting with shortswords (1d6 each, or rapiers with the two weapon feat that allows you to ignore the light weapon restriction). I don't recall how important the bonus action is to battlemaster, so I don't know if two weapon is a viable option there. Finesse doesn't mean that you have to use dex for attack, so your strength being higher is just fine. Since you don't seem as worried about tanking, maybe you can go Mobile Feat and Mage Slayer feat to work on limiting spellcasters and other ranged attackers (if you've gone dueling fighting style or defensive, that could be quite interesting. If you've gone great weapon fighting style, find out if you can switch or go with a different class for your MC. That might be the roll that your monk is filling, though. I guess it would be helpful to know what archetype you're thinking of for rogue and what you're trying to accomplish exactly with you're build. Are you planning on fighting along side the barbarian so you have advantage? Are you content filling in wherever is needed? How important are out of combat encounters to you and/or your campaign?
Let's compare what you are giving up and what you are gaining (I'm going to include the pros and cons that cancel out to be thorough).
Cons, what you miss out on from fighter:
Pros, what you gain from multiclassing rogue:
Losing 4th attack and especially second action surge is not made up for with sneak attack.
Basically, you will be sacrificing combat efficiency for non-combat versatility slightly depending on which rogue subclass you take. Action surge and indomitable are slightly better than an ASI (you will still have 6 at this point and your stats are already good anyway). I say take 3 levels rogue for the cunning action and subclass.
As for which subclass:
I like inquisitive, mastermind, or Scout (only if archer) for this multiclass.
He wouldn't get a 7th ASI, it would be a 6th. 4,6,8,12,16,19 for fighter, swap 19 to rogue 4 and it's still 6. The only way I know to get seven is fighter 8, rogue 12. Fighter: 4,6,8 and rogue 4,8,10,12. Otherwise, good analysis.
Fighters get an ASI at level 14 too. Every class gets 5 normally (every 4 levels except 19 instead of 20). Rogues get one extra ASI at level 10. Fighters get 2 extra ASIs ant level 6 and 14.
The main reason I pointed out the number of ASIs was to correct your mistake. And I double checked before I posted it. And I triple checked before posting this.
Apologies. Those extra ASIs are hiding everywhere. Still leaves 7 as the max, but gives more options to get it for certain.
Thanks for the help everyone!
I'd prefer this character to be primarily a fighter, but that's definitely an interesting idea for a future build. There's a lot of fun feats you can play around with when you have 7 ASIs.
In terms of weapons, I took the dueling style with a rapier at first level so that's pretty in line with what I need for a rogue anyways. I don't have a specific combat plan (especially since we have several potential new/returning members who might change the party dynamic over the next few months) but I've definitely been taking advantage of flanking, which should mesh well with sneak attack. I'd say there was about a 60/40 rp combat split- we usually have at least one encounter per session, but there's definitely a lot of out of combat encounters too. I'm not particularly interested in optimizing any stats for it though, I think any deficiencies my character might have in the area would make for more interesting roleplay.
I completely forgot about the second action surge and third indomitable at 17th. In that case, it definitely makes more sense to stop at three rogue levels overall. The only real benefit of that extra ASI would be another feat, and there's really only so many good ones. Two additional actions + three indomitables per rest seems like a much more powerful upgrade in the long run.
Swashbuckler might fit the character slightly better thematically, but I also really like the assassin's auto crit and the versatility of the mastermind. Definitely something to discuss with the dm later.
—
Going with the fighter 17 / rogue 3 build, what would be the best leveling order? I'd prefer to get the rogue archetype sooner rather than later, especially considering that most campaigns don't make it past level 18, but I don't want to delay any fighter features too much or be a liability to the team. Any further help greatly appreciated!
I'd go 5 levels in rogue to get uncanny dodge to help with spells with area effects.you know like fire ball.then rest in fighter