So joined a long running campaign a couple of months ago that needed another player. I’ve been playing for 20+ years so am well versed in the game. When I’m not a DM I typically always play casters (I prefer always having the options and utility spells provide). I played a Druid once in 3.5, but have never played one in 5e. I started the game at 17 with everyone else at 20 with epic boons. So far I’ve been able to be very clever about how I’ve approached combat, and have been very effective in fights well beyond my weight class. Now, I’ve reached lvl 20 and Im starting to run out of tactics (I try not to use the same ones very often if I can), and my DM seems to have taken on the personal challenge to bring me down. So if any of you guys have played a lvl 20 Druid I could really use some tactics or really any out of the box strategies you may have come up with.
For your DM to take you down is hard, even with epic level opponents. You’re a full spell caster while you’re wild shaped plus on top of that you can wild shape as a bonus action and be in a form that has a couple of hundred HP every round. You aren’t impossible to kill, but you can take more damage than almost any other character class.
I’m playing a Moon Druid right now but I’m only 7th level. I’m sorry but I don’t have any experience with 20th level yet.
To be honest, I’ve always played Arcane classes, and spell wise the Druid feels limited. However, what you can do when you have unlimited wild shape completely changes the game. I honestly can’t imagine why anyone would pick a different subclass, but I haven’t played the others. However, it comes so late, unless you know you’re going to get there (like I did) then the others are just as viable. So, I hope you get to lvl 20, there’s nothing like jumping in and out of different forms while casting spells, summoning, and tanking everything alongside the martial classes.
Seriously, at level 20? Wildshape into a fire elemental, smash, and move through your enemy, lighting them on fire.
They attack you next round? OK, wildshape into an entirely new elemental form. Hit points reset. Rinse and repeat. You have a pretty much unlimited supply of hit points unless they can do enough damage to take out your wildshape form AND your regular druid form in one round. You can also cast spells in your shaped form and summon literal hordes of nasty animals to come to your aid. (Like a fire elemental with an army of velociraptors or dire wolves as support...)
And if you don't have the warcaster feat to keep concentration on your summoned animals or other spells, you really should...
Do you remember the old Disney movie "The Sword and the Stone"? Unlimited wildshapes means that wizard battle between Merlin and Madame Mim.
You could fly above a formation of enemy troops as a dragonfly, then wildshape into a 20 ton apatosaurus and squash them. Your foes are either dead, suffocating, or prone. You could turn into a giant badger and dig a tunnel underneath a fort, then, once you get a Message or a Sending, burst out inside the gate as an earth or fire elemental and cause mass disarray just inside the gates to make siege for the rest of your party really simple. If they try to focus fire, you, turn into an Air Elemental and Whirlwind them or get out of there.
Love that comparison! I have done the dropping onto enemies before. Typically, l just Earth Glide with the Earth Elemental rather than burrow, but have snuck into strongholds that way before. With 13 save DC that whirlwind rarely works at this point since I rarely am the one fighting the minions. I mostly fight whatever is the biggest thing there and keep it away from the rest of the party. Thank you for the suggestions though. I think I’m more or less looking for spells that might combo well or creative uses there.
Yeah, all that stuff you just mentioned, doesn’t work when you fight CR 20+ regularly. CR 5 elementals will rarely hit let alone smash anything. Fire is resisted by so many things and the damage from it is negligible at best. There are plenty of things capable of dropping me out of wildshapes or kill me outright (finger of death). Yes, I am easily the most hearty of the group, but there are ways around that. Summon animals does you no good at this tier when nothing you can summon with it has magical attacks. You are basically summoning a horde of help actions. I do have Warcaster, the spell list is 75% concentration, you’d be dumb not to.
Perhaps I took you’re “Seriously, at level 20” the wrong way, but let’s assume I’m not a total idiot and do know what I’m doing.
Right. Hmmm, that's a little more difficult since I have not played to 20th level yet. However, I imagine that most really good abilities would entail using terrain-affecting spells combined with your obvious Wildshaped mobility to bypass your own control spells. Stuff like Sleet Storm+Earth Elemental: Tremor Sense&Earth Glide means you can wade into your own AoE and club all those prone foes. If you're fighting in a small valley or basin, flood it with water (1st level spell), become a G. octopus to ink confuse your enemies and get away, then, once you're out of the water, Call Lighting to electrocute everyone still in it. If your DM rewards creative interpretation of rules, that should zap Everybody in the water. Or combine Bones of the Earth spell with Giant Ape form to go Jaws Titan on the ranks of your disoriented, divided foes - whether or not you are underground, the terrain now probably benefits you and any ranged attack allies that you can carry.
(I should note that if you have not already read "Attack on Titan", looking up "Jaws Titan" would probably spoiler a few important aspects of the story. So probably better to look up "gibbon" or "howler monkey" on Youtube to get a sense of the Jaws Titan mobility I'm referring to.)
I'm about to be in a similar situation and stumbled across this thread. What did you figure out?
Dunno if anyone in this thread will respond to you, but I can tell you that Mortiis appears to be using a different version of Wild Shape from any I've played with. The RAW isn't the best so I understand why a DM would rule that a Druid loses their proficiency bonus in beast/elemental form, but I've never personally had a DM rule that way, and if the Druid gets to keep their proficiency bonus, the save DCs you inflict will scale up as you level.
When you reach 20th level, you're basically unkillable. It doesn't matter what class you are, if you're at 20th level, unless you have a Deck of Many Things, you're gonna win any battle. An Archdruid can become a new 6 CR creature every round and still be able to cast spells.
A 20th level Archdruid is unstoppable. That's the reality. No DM should expect their players to lose any combat when they're at max level.
If you summon 24 wolves they are far from useless....even with resistance they are putting out big numbers for damage and will absorb damage that you would otherwise take.
Even a creature with an AC 20 would be taking 85 points of damage from wolves (thanks to ADV from pack tactics) on average. Half that and its still 42 points of damage per round that is completely outside your turn. They would also have to deal out 264 points of damage to kill all the wolves OR attempt to kill you which is a bad idea as you can just re-up wildshape and keep pumping out THP.
Minion on Minion battle makes this strategy very effective as well as you can isolate and remove minions from the battle.
When you reach 20th level, you're basically unkillable. It doesn't matter what class you are, if you're at 20th level, unless you have a Deck of Many Things, you're gonna win any battle. An Archdruid can become a new 6 CR creature every round and still be able to cast spells.
A 20th level Archdruid is unstoppable. That's the reality. No DM should expect their players to lose any combat when they're at max level.
It's not like all capstones are equal in power - nor are all capstones defensive. Druids just get a particularly defensively powerful capstone - I think only Zealot Barbarians get anything directly comparable, where they can't be killed via damage unless that damage is followed up with unconsciousness.
For comparison:
Artificer: +6 to all saves, which can be consumed 1 at a time as a death gate. +8 for Armorers.
Barbarian, Druid: Infinite class feature (rages and wild shapes), whose utility can be modified by subclass.
Bard, Monk: a class resource they get X/short rest regenerates from 0 to X/5 when they "roll initiative". Fails the bag of rats test like all per-initiative abilities do, so can be exploited.
Note: if we ignore the bag of rats failure and use the DMG's assumed math numbers, and assume the player consumes their resources early to make the ability come up, this is an increase from 3X/long rest = 15X/5 to (3X+6X/5 = 21X/5), a 40% increase.
Sorcerer: a class resource they get X/long rest regenerates from 0 to X/5 when they complete a short rest. No native exploits, and in fact so weak 3 levels of Warlock will provide the same benefit by consuming the Warlock spell slots.
Note: based on the DMG's assumed math numbers, this increases the resource from X/long rest to (X+2X/5)/long rest, i.e. a 40% increase, assuming early consumption (this assumption is particularly invalid, in general, due to the limits on spending sorcery points - a sorcerer with 1-3 sp remaining gets no benefit from the capstone, and can't generally pour a bunch of sorcery points into one good spell).
Warlock: a class resource they get X/short rest regenerates from 0 to X 1/long rest, and it takes a minute. No exploits.
Note: based on the DMG's assumed math numbers, this increases the resource from 3X/long rest to 4X/long rest, i.e. a 33% increase, assuming early consumption and assuming the Warlock gets the consumption "right" - can be wasted by consuming all your slots for a fight, then using the capstone, then not hitting a fight before the next short rest.
Cleric: functionally speaking, a class resource they get 1/long rest happens an additional time 1/week (they can do anything on par with a 9th-level spell on their spell list). Since they already get this feature, only unreliably, earlier, this is really an increase from a 20% chance to a 100% chance to use it on any given long rest. Still much better than an additional 9th level spell per week.
Note: based on the DMG's assumed math numbers, this increases the resource from 7 9th-level spells per week + a 1/5 chance of it happening when you need it = 7.2/week to 8/week, an 11.11% increase.
Wizard: functionally speaking, a class resource they get 18/long rest if they want it (two specific L3 spells) now happens an additional 2/short rest times, with some major caveats.
Note: based on the DMG's assumed math numbers, this increases the resource from 18/long rest to 24/long rest, a 33% increase (with some major caveats - this overly simplified math over-values the ability, since you get additional casts of the spell, not additional L3 slots).
Paladin: totally unpredictable; unlike everyone else, Paladins get their capstone directly from their subclass, so every Paladin subclass is a different capstone. In practice, there are three "types":
1/long rest some sort of super buff.
1/long rest some sort of super buff that can also be triggered by consuming an L5 spell slot, so max 3/long rest (Watchers)
Always-on super buff that expires on a per creature and per long rest basis when the paladin does something to the creature (Redemption)
Fighter: roughly 33% increase in attack output - anything that modifies action economy can change this value.
Ranger: 1/turn +3 to +5 hit or damage against a favored enemy or foe.
Under a "basic" assumption of a Ranger with Dex 20, Wis 20, a longbow and Hunter's Mark up (base accuracy +13, damage 13), against AC 19, where the Ranger consumes the ability for damage on the first hit, and if both hits miss but the second hit was a 2-5, instead hits automatically, a 32.76% damage increase, but only against the 3 chosen types (assuming the Ranger doesn't pick two specific humanoid races per pick, which would substantially reduce the odds of the target being applicable) out of the 14 types that exist. It's very challenging to accurately math this, since e.g. beasts don't exist at high CRs but are overwhelmingly common at CR 0. Point is, even against an optimal target and with maxed out WIS, worse than the Fighter.
Rogue: 1/rest, auto-20 a failed ability check or auto-hit a missed attack.
In terms of the combat output, using the DMG's assumed numbers, including 65% accuracy and 3-round fights, this is an increase from landing 13.65 hits to landing 16.65 - a 21.98% increase, only worse, since the additional landed hits are never crits. This benefit goes down if you assume the Rogue is successfully hiding every turn, to 13.96%. Impossible to accurately math, though, because the utility of auto-20 on a failed ability check doesn't fit the DMG's core assumptions. From a combat perspective, strictly worse than Fighter, or Ranger against a Favored Foe. From an overall perspective, worse than Bard - giving a Rogue an inferior version of the Bard capstone that produced 1 inspiration die of size 1d12 but only worked on the Rogue instead of only working on not-the-Rogue (the latter is generally better), and didn't have any Bardic subclass upgrades, would be better than the Rogue capstone.
So as you can see, the Druid capstone is out-of-band excellent, and many capstones are utterly abysmal for level 20 - perhaps explaining why multiclassing is so powerful, since for many builds, you're not actually giving that much up.
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So joined a long running campaign a couple of months ago that needed another player. I’ve been playing for 20+ years so am well versed in the game. When I’m not a DM I typically always play casters (I prefer always having the options and utility spells provide). I played a Druid once in 3.5, but have never played one in 5e. I started the game at 17 with everyone else at 20 with epic boons. So far I’ve been able to be very clever about how I’ve approached combat, and have been very effective in fights well beyond my weight class. Now, I’ve reached lvl 20 and Im starting to run out of tactics (I try not to use the same ones very often if I can), and my DM seems to have taken on the personal challenge to bring me down. So if any of you guys have played a lvl 20 Druid I could really use some tactics or really any out of the box strategies you may have come up with.
For your DM to take you down is hard, even with epic level opponents. You’re a full spell caster while you’re wild shaped plus on top of that you can wild shape as a bonus action and be in a form that has a couple of hundred HP every round. You aren’t impossible to kill, but you can take more damage than almost any other character class.
I’m playing a Moon Druid right now but I’m only 7th level. I’m sorry but I don’t have any experience with 20th level yet.
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To be honest, I’ve always played Arcane classes, and spell wise the Druid feels limited. However, what you can do when you have unlimited wild shape completely changes the game. I honestly can’t imagine why anyone would pick a different subclass, but I haven’t played the others. However, it comes so late, unless you know you’re going to get there (like I did) then the others are just as viable. So, I hope you get to lvl 20, there’s nothing like jumping in and out of different forms while casting spells, summoning, and tanking everything alongside the martial classes.
Seriously, at level 20? Wildshape into a fire elemental, smash, and move through your enemy, lighting them on fire.
They attack you next round? OK, wildshape into an entirely new elemental form. Hit points reset. Rinse and repeat. You have a pretty much unlimited supply of hit points unless they can do enough damage to take out your wildshape form AND your regular druid form in one round. You can also cast spells in your shaped form and summon literal hordes of nasty animals to come to your aid. (Like a fire elemental with an army of velociraptors or dire wolves as support...)
And if you don't have the warcaster feat to keep concentration on your summoned animals or other spells, you really should...
Do you remember the old Disney movie "The Sword and the Stone"? Unlimited wildshapes means that wizard battle between Merlin and Madame Mim.
You could fly above a formation of enemy troops as a dragonfly, then wildshape into a 20 ton apatosaurus and squash them. Your foes are either dead, suffocating, or prone. You could turn into a giant badger and dig a tunnel underneath a fort, then, once you get a Message or a Sending, burst out inside the gate as an earth or fire elemental and cause mass disarray just inside the gates to make siege for the rest of your party really simple. If they try to focus fire, you, turn into an Air Elemental and Whirlwind them or get out of there.
Love that comparison! I have done the dropping onto enemies before. Typically, l just Earth Glide with the Earth Elemental rather than burrow, but have snuck into strongholds that way before. With 13 save DC that whirlwind rarely works at this point since I rarely am the one fighting the minions. I mostly fight whatever is the biggest thing there and keep it away from the rest of the party. Thank you for the suggestions though. I think I’m more or less looking for spells that might combo well or creative uses there.
Yeah, all that stuff you just mentioned, doesn’t work when you fight CR 20+ regularly. CR 5 elementals will rarely hit let alone smash anything. Fire is resisted by so many things and the damage from it is negligible at best. There are plenty of things capable of dropping me out of wildshapes or kill me outright (finger of death). Yes, I am easily the most hearty of the group, but there are ways around that. Summon animals does you no good at this tier when nothing you can summon with it has magical attacks. You are basically summoning a horde of help actions. I do have Warcaster, the spell list is 75% concentration, you’d be dumb not to.
Perhaps I took you’re “Seriously, at level 20” the wrong way, but let’s assume I’m not a total idiot and do know what I’m doing.
Right. Hmmm, that's a little more difficult since I have not played to 20th level yet. However, I imagine that most really good abilities would entail using terrain-affecting spells combined with your obvious Wildshaped mobility to bypass your own control spells. Stuff like Sleet Storm+Earth Elemental: Tremor Sense&Earth Glide means you can wade into your own AoE and club all those prone foes. If you're fighting in a small valley or basin, flood it with water (1st level spell), become a G. octopus to ink confuse your enemies and get away, then, once you're out of the water, Call Lighting to electrocute everyone still in it. If your DM rewards creative interpretation of rules, that should zap Everybody in the water. Or combine Bones of the Earth spell with Giant Ape form to go Jaws Titan on the ranks of your disoriented, divided foes - whether or not you are underground, the terrain now probably benefits you and any ranged attack allies that you can carry.
(I should note that if you have not already read "Attack on Titan", looking up "Jaws Titan" would probably spoiler a few important aspects of the story. So probably better to look up "gibbon" or "howler monkey" on Youtube to get a sense of the Jaws Titan mobility I'm referring to.)
I'm about to be in a similar situation and stumbled across this thread. What did you figure out?
Dunno if anyone in this thread will respond to you, but I can tell you that Mortiis appears to be using a different version of Wild Shape from any I've played with. The RAW isn't the best so I understand why a DM would rule that a Druid loses their proficiency bonus in beast/elemental form, but I've never personally had a DM rule that way, and if the Druid gets to keep their proficiency bonus, the save DCs you inflict will scale up as you level.
When you reach 20th level, you're basically unkillable. It doesn't matter what class you are, if you're at 20th level, unless you have a Deck of Many Things, you're gonna win any battle. An Archdruid can become a new 6 CR creature every round and still be able to cast spells.
A 20th level Archdruid is unstoppable. That's the reality. No DM should expect their players to lose any combat when they're at max level.
If you summon 24 wolves they are far from useless....even with resistance they are putting out big numbers for damage and will absorb damage that you would otherwise take.
Even a creature with an AC 20 would be taking 85 points of damage from wolves (thanks to ADV from pack tactics) on average. Half that and its still 42 points of damage per round that is completely outside your turn. They would also have to deal out 264 points of damage to kill all the wolves OR attempt to kill you which is a bad idea as you can just re-up wildshape and keep pumping out THP.
Minion on Minion battle makes this strategy very effective as well as you can isolate and remove minions from the battle.
It's not like all capstones are equal in power - nor are all capstones defensive. Druids just get a particularly defensively powerful capstone - I think only Zealot Barbarians get anything directly comparable, where they can't be killed via damage unless that damage is followed up with unconsciousness.
For comparison:
So as you can see, the Druid capstone is out-of-band excellent, and many capstones are utterly abysmal for level 20 - perhaps explaining why multiclassing is so powerful, since for many builds, you're not actually giving that much up.