Could you build a single PC that could defeat a party of multiple lower-level PCs? Or if they can't defeat them, at least they can thwart them by indefinitely denying them access to a location or similar.
Maybe with a magic user where some higher level spell just can't be countered by anything of lower level. Of course there's always Counterspell and Dispel Magic which can thwart much higher level spells if you're lucky.
What's the closest you can make it? For example could you make a level 7 character that thwarts a level 5 party?
A level 2 Wild magic sorcerer could roll to cast a fireball centred on themselves, also affecting a party of HIGHER level PCs and roll 48 damage, if they all fail that could wipe out the party if they all fail and up ot about level 5. The sorcerer succeeds the save and casts absorb elements and survives.
A little less extreme is a level 5 character taking out thew rest of the party by casting fireball on them but the chances of it doing enough damage to kill all of them is still fairly low.
If it were possible for a single PC to dominate an entire party using just class abilities, within any practical level gap, it would represent a severe imbalance of the game.
If you are open to introducing additional factors such as Very Rare+ magic items, then it wouldn't be so difficult to thwart a lower level party.
If it were possible for a single PC to dominate an entire party using just class abilities, within any practical level gap, it would represent a severe imbalance of the game.
And with that we bring you the darkness warlock (with invocation to see in magical darkness). throw in that nasty fatigue spell and you're good to go. I've done it.
You basically just need darkness, preferably a race that can cast it through the race so you get an extra use of it.. And the invocation to see in it.
Maybe the skulker feat so you can easily hide, but just the ability to run away into normal darkness inside a dungeon or forest or whatever, and firing eldritch blasts or even using spell sniper to increase the range.
It works, I've done it. They eventually got me by managing to get close enough, but it was a 7 hour battle in total (real time). And I didn't even try to hide very much, just moved around them.
If it were possible for a single PC to dominate an entire party using just class abilities, within any practical level gap, it would represent a severe imbalance of the game.
And with that we bring you the darkness warlock (with invocation to see in magical darkness). throw in that nasty fatigue spell and you're good to go. I've done it.
You basically just need darkness, preferably a race that can cast it through the race so you get an extra use of it.. And the invocation to see in it.
Maybe the skulker feat so you can easily hide, but just the ability to run away into normal darkness inside a dungeon or forest or whatever, and firing eldritch blasts or even using spell sniper to increase the range.
It works, I've done it. They eventually got me by managing to get close enough, but it was a 7 hour battle in total (real time). And I didn't even try to hide very much, just moved around them.
This isn't even as effective as casting a Greater Invisibility spell. Throw in 2 levels of rogue for Cunning Action and you can dash around while flinging fireball or spells that don't even signify where you are. I suspect that you were doing some weird rulings about the players not knowing where the enemy was.
In seven hours nobody had a Dispel Magic? Why did they keep choosing to fight in magical darkness given the set up?
Anyway...
The answer is Yes, absolutely you can do this, with enough level difference.
A level 1 character who catches a whole party with burning hands can deal 18 damage to all members, downing everyone who fails their saving throw. Even a hill dwarf barbarian can't survive that. Of course, pretty unlikely you'll roll the 17-18 you need, but it's possible.
Any level 5 character casting fireball wipes out a level 1-2 party in one spell, and more often than not will easily mop up any survivors in a 3rd level party.
Any level 17 character casting meteor swarm wipes out most parties up to level 8 or 9 even if they all pass their saves.
For the purpose of this exercise, it's worth assuming that the PCBBEG loses initiative, and the party gets a few lucky hits in. Otherwise, the "indefinite denial" function is liable to go out the window pretty fast. A caster going nova can absolutely take out a party quite quickly, but not if they have to endure a volley of attacks first.
If a level 17+ caster casts meteor swarm it guarantees 20 damage (roll straight ones and every succeeds the save) which would be enough to guarantee wiping out a level 1 party and some level 2 parties. Other than that nothing is certain.
A party of levels 1s against a level 20 could have have one player commanding it to grovel or halt while the others slowly take out its hit points. If the high level player keeps failing there is nothing he can do.
I do however agree with surprise (starting with a fireball should be enough to beat a party of level 1-3, and a meteor storm should wipe out a level 8-9 party. Betwwen the two for raw damage the PC probably wants to continue casting fireball but has other options, for example upcasting hold person on the whole party and then casting fireball when the incapacitated ones will auto fail the save. (Particularly useful if the party has few people proficient in wisdom and or have it as a high stat).
@sanvael nope, like I said I didn't hide much, but I was in some ruins and started far away. Slowing spells and running behind corners after casting spells. They did use dispel magic, on that mist magic which deals radiant damage and fatigue. I also used synaptic static on them. And high ground so they had to climb and so on.
If it were possible for a single PC to dominate an entire party using just class abilities, within any practical level gap, it would represent a severe imbalance of the game.
And with that we bring you the darkness warlock (with invocation to see in magical darkness). throw in that nasty fatigue spell and you're good to go. I've done it.
You basically just need darkness, preferably a race that can cast it through the race so you get an extra use of it.. And the invocation to see in it.
Maybe the skulker feat so you can easily hide, but just the ability to run away into normal darkness inside a dungeon or forest or whatever, and firing eldritch blasts or even using spell sniper to increase the range.
It works, I've done it. They eventually got me by managing to get close enough, but it was a 7 hour battle in total (real time). And I didn't even try to hide very much, just moved around them.
The best counter to this spell is the simple Fog Cloud. A 1st level and the warlock can't see through it. There, easily nullified their strategy. Not only it's only a 1st level spell, but any non-warlock caster would also have more spell slots than your warlock. Even the fighters and rogues. Another option is having the Blind Fighting fighting style, though not many will ever pick it unless they know they're going to be fighting that warlock.
As for stopping your party forever, it really depends on the party's level. A 1st-3rd level party will need to be incredibly lucky to beat a 6th level Barbarian. If you fear they'll use some nasty spells on him, just choose the Berserker subclass. Even without Frenzy, the immunity to being charmed is amazing. A 10th level party will be a major challenge for most single heroes, even the 20th level, depending on the class. At that point, you might want to mix in other factors. For example, they don't have to fight in a white, square room. Terrain, traps, other enemies and many other things can make an encounter harder for your party. Maybe the wizard made a very narrow yet very long hall, through which it can cast many line spells to hit all the party? Thunderbolt, Sunbeam, Sunburst, Aaganazzar's Scorcher, Tasha's Caustic Brew... so many options suddenly made deadly simply by adding two walls.
Enter the Eldritch Knight with both For Cloud and Blind Fighting. Also, the point is disabling the warlock. It can't do anything while in the fog cloud, either forcing him to leave it or just locking him out of the fight for a minute. Also, of course, if you're so far that getting into melee is impossible, that is equal to having flying speed. We regard both as something you don't have at the moment because that is a completely different problem.
Yeah, Warlocks benefit from short rest, but they also lose resources fast. If not given any chance to rest at all, they'd be out of resources long before anyone else (except for some rogues who don't have resources, but they don't need them anyway). Spamming Eldritch Blast, while the enemy spams Fireball on you, isn't a pleasant experience.
I would create a (N)PC that had great influence over the population, and have his(her) followers thwart the Party. A Noble Paladin might be a Baron with the resources to thwart the party, or a particularly cunning and charismatic Rogue leader of the Thieves Guild, or an extremely popular Bard with contacts in every settlement for one hundred miles, or a Ranger that has a network of informants and peers that were willing to "hunt" your party without killing your party (so maybe they just kill your pack animals after you are two days away on you trip somewhat stranding you). The possibilities are only limited by your imagination.
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Enter the Eldritch Knight with both For Cloud and Blind Fighting. Also, the point is disabling the warlock. It can't do anything while in the fog cloud, either forcing him to leave it or just locking him out of the fight for a minute. Also, of course, if you're so far that getting into melee is impossible, that is equal to having flying speed. We regard both as something you don't have at the moment because that is a completely different problem.
Yeah, Warlocks benefit from short rest, but they also lose resources fast. If not given any chance to rest at all, they'd be out of resources long before anyone else (except for some rogues who don't have resources, but they don't need them anyway). Spamming Eldritch Blast, while the enemy spams Fireball on you, isn't a pleasant experience.
What kind of low level party spams fireball first of all?
Fog also doesn't lock the warlock into place, the warlock moves away easily.
If a level 17+ caster casts meteor swarm it guarantees 20 damage (roll straight ones and every succeeds the save) which would be enough to guarantee wiping out a level 1 party and some level 2 parties. Other than that nothing is certain.
Technically true, but if my maths are right, the chance of rolling a 1 on every die is 0.0000000000000004%, or 4 in a quadrillion - 4/1,000,000,000,000,000. It's a number that's basically inconceivable to human minds in terms of how large it is. If you got everyone on earth to roll 20d6, they'd have to roll them more than 1 million times each before a single person rolled a 1 on every die.
At that point, this figure is statistically irrelevant in terms of meaningful discussion. In fact, the more dice rolled, the more we can feel confident about the likely result. We can say with certainty that a meteor swarm will wipe out any party up to about 8th level in the same way we can be certain that falling out of a plane at 10,000ft will kill you. It's technically possible that it might not, but the possibility of survival is irrelevant for any meaningful discussion.
It's also true that the average person has fewer than two legs.
There are too many possible min/max multi-class (and some single class) builds capable of TPK with adequate preparation and advantage of intel/terrain. Just look up the various "Best of..." threads in this section of the forum. The Terminator build challenge from last year, for some real impressive survivability against almost any threat. Probably a Chronurgist Wizard with a few Glyph of Wardings set up. Or a Shepherd Druid who gets to pick her summons (or just rolls lucky for them).
Heck, even a Bard with maxed CHA and a few choice Magical Secret picks could TPK a party a few levels lower if they aren't expecting it. For instance:
) Use illusion spells to separate anyone with Dispel Magic from the rest of the party.
) Mass Suggestion.
) Charmed party members force non-charmed party members into a nigh-inescapable death trap.
) Use Glibness to convince surviving party members to drink a deadly poison hidden in Feywine or what have you.
) If not yet TPK, cast Animate Objects and snipe surviving party member until win
Why would you build a PC to do an NPC's job? The Monsters section includes tons of examples of PC classes ported into NPC frameworks. For example, here's the Champion. Just pick one with the appropriate CR for the combat.
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Could you build a single PC that could defeat a party of multiple lower-level PCs? Or if they can't defeat them, at least they can thwart them by indefinitely denying them access to a location or similar.
Maybe with a magic user where some higher level spell just can't be countered by anything of lower level. Of course there's always Counterspell and Dispel Magic which can thwart much higher level spells if you're lucky.
What's the closest you can make it? For example could you make a level 7 character that thwarts a level 5 party?
You don't have to make a PC, just a creature.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
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-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Dice play a big role is anything like that.
An extreme example:
A level 2 Wild magic sorcerer could roll to cast a fireball centred on themselves, also affecting a party of HIGHER level PCs and roll 48 damage, if they all fail that could wipe out the party if they all fail and up ot about level 5. The sorcerer succeeds the save and casts absorb elements and survives.
A little less extreme is a level 5 character taking out thew rest of the party by casting fireball on them but the chances of it doing enough damage to kill all of them is still fairly low.
If it were possible for a single PC to dominate an entire party using just class abilities, within any practical level gap, it would represent a severe imbalance of the game.
If you are open to introducing additional factors such as Very Rare+ magic items, then it wouldn't be so difficult to thwart a lower level party.
And with that we bring you the darkness warlock (with invocation to see in magical darkness). throw in that nasty fatigue spell and you're good to go. I've done it.
You basically just need darkness, preferably a race that can cast it through the race so you get an extra use of it.. And the invocation to see in it.
Maybe the skulker feat so you can easily hide, but just the ability to run away into normal darkness inside a dungeon or forest or whatever, and firing eldritch blasts or even using spell sniper to increase the range.
It works, I've done it. They eventually got me by managing to get close enough, but it was a 7 hour battle in total (real time). And I didn't even try to hide very much, just moved around them.
This isn't even as effective as casting a Greater Invisibility spell. Throw in 2 levels of rogue for Cunning Action and you can dash around while flinging fireball or spells that don't even signify where you are. I suspect that you were doing some weird rulings about the players not knowing where the enemy was.
In seven hours nobody had a Dispel Magic? Why did they keep choosing to fight in magical darkness given the set up?
Anyway...
The answer is Yes, absolutely you can do this, with enough level difference.
A level 1 character who catches a whole party with burning hands can deal 18 damage to all members, downing everyone who fails their saving throw. Even a hill dwarf barbarian can't survive that. Of course, pretty unlikely you'll roll the 17-18 you need, but it's possible.
Any level 5 character casting fireball wipes out a level 1-2 party in one spell, and more often than not will easily mop up any survivors in a 3rd level party.
Any level 17 character casting meteor swarm wipes out most parties up to level 8 or 9 even if they all pass their saves.
For the purpose of this exercise, it's worth assuming that the PCBBEG loses initiative, and the party gets a few lucky hits in. Otherwise, the "indefinite denial" function is liable to go out the window pretty fast. A caster going nova can absolutely take out a party quite quickly, but not if they have to endure a volley of attacks first.
If a level 17+ caster casts meteor swarm it guarantees 20 damage (roll straight ones and every succeeds the save) which would be enough to guarantee wiping out a level 1 party and some level 2 parties. Other than that nothing is certain.
A party of levels 1s against a level 20 could have have one player commanding it to grovel or halt while the others slowly take out its hit points. If the high level player keeps failing there is nothing he can do.
I do however agree with surprise (starting with a fireball should be enough to beat a party of level 1-3, and a meteor storm should wipe out a level 8-9 party. Betwwen the two for raw damage the PC probably wants to continue casting fireball but has other options, for example upcasting hold person on the whole party and then casting fireball when the incapacitated ones will auto fail the save. (Particularly useful if the party has few people proficient in wisdom and or have it as a high stat).
@sanvael nope, like I said I didn't hide much, but I was in some ruins and started far away. Slowing spells and running behind corners after casting spells. They did use dispel magic, on that mist magic which deals radiant damage and fatigue. I also used synaptic static on them. And high ground so they had to climb and so on.
The best counter to this spell is the simple Fog Cloud. A 1st level and the warlock can't see through it. There, easily nullified their strategy. Not only it's only a 1st level spell, but any non-warlock caster would also have more spell slots than your warlock. Even the fighters and rogues. Another option is having the Blind Fighting fighting style, though not many will ever pick it unless they know they're going to be fighting that warlock.
As for stopping your party forever, it really depends on the party's level. A 1st-3rd level party will need to be incredibly lucky to beat a 6th level Barbarian. If you fear they'll use some nasty spells on him, just choose the Berserker subclass. Even without Frenzy, the immunity to being charmed is amazing. A 10th level party will be a major challenge for most single heroes, even the 20th level, depending on the class. At that point, you might want to mix in other factors. For example, they don't have to fight in a white, square room. Terrain, traps, other enemies and many other things can make an encounter harder for your party. Maybe the wizard made a very narrow yet very long hall, through which it can cast many line spells to hit all the party? Thunderbolt, Sunbeam, Sunburst, Aaganazzar's Scorcher, Tasha's Caustic Brew... so many options suddenly made deadly simply by adding two walls.
Varielky
They can't see through it either and blind fighting does nothing since I wasn't in melee range.
You can obviously counter anything if you know what they have.
Fog cloud just would have helped me more since they couldn't target me anyways and I'd just retreat and wait until they exit the fog.
Also warlock benefits more from a short rest and can make sure the party has issues with taking long rests.
Enter the Eldritch Knight with both For Cloud and Blind Fighting.
Also, the point is disabling the warlock. It can't do anything while in the fog cloud, either forcing him to leave it or just locking him out of the fight for a minute. Also, of course, if you're so far that getting into melee is impossible, that is equal to having flying speed. We regard both as something you don't have at the moment because that is a completely different problem.
Yeah, Warlocks benefit from short rest, but they also lose resources fast. If not given any chance to rest at all, they'd be out of resources long before anyone else (except for some rogues who don't have resources, but they don't need them anyway). Spamming Eldritch Blast, while the enemy spams Fireball on you, isn't a pleasant experience.
Varielky
This probably doesn't fit your mold, but ...
I would create a (N)PC that had great influence over the population, and have his(her) followers thwart the Party. A Noble Paladin might be a Baron with the resources to thwart the party, or a particularly cunning and charismatic Rogue leader of the Thieves Guild, or an extremely popular Bard with contacts in every settlement for one hundred miles, or a Ranger that has a network of informants and peers that were willing to "hunt" your party without killing your party (so maybe they just kill your pack animals after you are two days away on you trip somewhat stranding you). The possibilities are only limited by your imagination.
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
What kind of low level party spams fireball first of all?
Fog also doesn't lock the warlock into place, the warlock moves away easily.
Technically true, but if my maths are right, the chance of rolling a 1 on every die is 0.0000000000000004%, or 4 in a quadrillion - 4/1,000,000,000,000,000. It's a number that's basically inconceivable to human minds in terms of how large it is. If you got everyone on earth to roll 20d6, they'd have to roll them more than 1 million times each before a single person rolled a 1 on every die.
At that point, this figure is statistically irrelevant in terms of meaningful discussion. In fact, the more dice rolled, the more we can feel confident about the likely result. We can say with certainty that a meteor swarm will wipe out any party up to about 8th level in the same way we can be certain that falling out of a plane at 10,000ft will kill you. It's technically possible that it might not, but the possibility of survival is irrelevant for any meaningful discussion.
It's also true that the average person has fewer than two legs.
Two ideas:
Sharpshooter or spellsniper on an Aaokra vs low lvl.
A Zealot Barbarian Rage Beyond the Grave vs a group that lacks battlefield control spells.
Attack: [roll]3d20dl2+6[/roll] Damage: [roll](if([roll:-1:critical], =0, 1d8, 2{1d8}.expand()))+4[/roll] Sneakattack: [roll](if([roll:-2:critical], =0, 2d6, 2{2d6}.expand()))[/roll]There are too many possible min/max multi-class (and some single class) builds capable of TPK with adequate preparation and advantage of intel/terrain. Just look up the various "Best of..." threads in this section of the forum. The Terminator build challenge from last year, for some real impressive survivability against almost any threat. Probably a Chronurgist Wizard with a few Glyph of Wardings set up. Or a Shepherd Druid who gets to pick her summons (or just rolls lucky for them).
Heck, even a Bard with maxed CHA and a few choice Magical Secret picks could TPK a party a few levels lower if they aren't expecting it. For instance:
Why would you build a PC to do an NPC's job? The Monsters section includes tons of examples of PC classes ported into NPC frameworks. For example, here's the Champion. Just pick one with the appropriate CR for the combat.
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in awhile.