Working on a Raven Queen themed Assassin, I know it wont ever likely be a power house damage dealer but to be able to play without feeling too ****** in the group and making up for less damage in utility. open to class order changes and even total levels in each.
Haunted one Shadar Kai Survival, Investigation, Common, Undercommon
There is no 'Close Quarters shooter' fighting style, unless you're talking homebrew, in which case we need details. Also, I'd say you should take at least 5 levels in either the ranger or fighter, for Extra Attack. And if you pick fighter, you might as well go for 6 to get the bonus feat - or if you're only going to level 12, gets you to the feats faster.
Also, unless you get a fairly good WIS score, I wouldn't go for any spell that requires a save DC (eg ensnaring strike). I'd go for either zephyr strike, which can give you advantage on a single weapon attack (goes great with sneak attack, no second person needed, and you still don't have to worry about opportunity attacks) or absorb elements, depending on how good your defenses are.
I thought i had come across it in a weekly UA and saw it listed somewhere not Homebrew. Looking closer its not, so instead i'll just take Defense for +1 AC. and I'm more likely to drop 1 lvl fighter to do 5th Gloom Stalker for Rope Trick.
You should be fine in the damage department regardless. Personally I'd drop one of the three classes - any one really, depending on what you're looking for most in the character. Increasing either of the two remaining ones to lvl 8 would work quite nicely, though Rog 6/Ftr 6 and Rog 7/Rgr 5 are good splits too.
If you're looking for utility, you should probably start with Rogue. Can't beat the number of skill proficiencies that nets you; you'd still end up with the same number you have now even if you dropped Ranger and one more if you dropped Fighter. If you do stick with these three classes it's a net gain of one.
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so the whole goal is to be as close to the ideal I have in my mind of how a Shadar-Kai would be like. the Darkness bonuses from Gloom, the disconnect of a body pseudo filled by Echo Knight with a flavor/visual adjustment (ie instead of an echo of past/future self, a Shadow of self still in the Fell aiding me) and the Phantom grants me the kind of soul/memory collecting of the dead that fits the Raven Queen's servants. I do want that extra attack. and stated I would probably drop 1 fighter for 1 ranger to get it and Rope Trick, as the Echo with the Sentinel feat I'm only able to use 1/3 of it so its kind of an expensive shoehorned perk to help with squeaking a little bit more potential dmg..
so the whole goal is to be as close to the ideal I have in my mind of how a Shadar-Kai would be like. the Darkness bonuses from Gloom, the disconnect of a body pseudo filled by Echo Knight with a flavor/visual adjustment (ie instead of an echo of past/future self, a Shadow of self still in the Fell aiding me) and the Phantom grants me the kind of soul/memory collecting of the dead that fits the Raven Queen's servants. I do want that extra attack. and stated I would probably drop 1 fighter for 1 ranger to get it and Rope Trick, as the Echo with the Sentinel feat I'm only able to use 1/3 of it so its kind of an expensive shoehorned perk to help with squeaking a little bit more potential dmg..
I get wanting to illustrate every aspect of your concept, it just feels like you end up spreading yourself very thin. Is the Invisibility from Shadow Touched particularly Shadowfell-like? I don't know. I'd think you're more about hiding in the shadows than going magically invisible. Sentinel doesn't work at all unless you're going to switch to a melee weapon: an opportunity attack is a melee attack by definition. That's two feats I'd shift to the 'maybe' pile - Sentinel to the 'probably not' pile really. Getting that extra attack or an extra sneak attack die will do much more for shoring up your damage potential anyway.
As for Phantom, it's not like you can't simply flavour this yourself without needing the actual class to back it up. Your Ranger spells could be wrested from souls your trapped for instance, or they could cloak you when you try to hide (Stealth proficiency) or guide your eyes towards danger (Perception proficiency). You can incorporate a lot into your character without it all having to be on the nose.
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direct from TCoE for Shadow Touched "Your exposure to the Shadowfell's magic has changed you, granting you the following benefits:" - this is the One feat I'm admittedly going to be stubborn about because adding a free 1st lvl Illusion/Necromancy spell based on my party needs Is just too tempting to pass up.
So the wording on Sentinel "Whenever you hit a creature with an opportunity attack, its speed drops to 0 for the rest of the turn. This stops any movement they may have been taking."
and the Manifest Echo "When a creature that you can see within 5 feet of your echo moves at least 5 feet away from it, you can use your reaction to make an opportunity attack against that creature as if you were in the echo's space."
one thought was that I use the stealth tools to sneak up and pop him behind the enemy, to my knowledge it makes no noise/does not alert to its manifestation, therefore no one should notice it unless they turn around. so when the enemy goes to move towards the party I should be able to utilize this aspect. However I do agree it is very niche and likely not going to get as much mileage as I'd hope out of it. but as a bonus action to pop him in within 15 feet of anywhere to potentially get an AoO on a retreating/charging enemy and halting them seemed like a very nice control tool.
If you have been able to find a resource on this as I've tried looking. I cant find any errata or clarification on when you do get the opportunity attack from enemy moving away from Echo, on what weapon/attack you get. As far as my and my general DM are interpreting it is just like how me shooting an arrow would then manifest from them. it would be the same cause for the opportunity attack.
Again I wholly agree Sentinel is the weakest choice of feats atm, and I'm fairly sold on dropping a level in Fighter for the Ranger one to shore up the extra attack.
I do appreciate the dialog though! in case it seems as I'm being over argumentative.
That's where I found the idea for it. and it has the same precepts i have listed. only the first part works. other two require them to be from me only.
one thought was that I use the stealth tools to sneak up and pop him behind the enemy, to my knowledge it makes no noise/does not alert to its manifestation, therefore no one should notice it unless they turn around.
Not being noticed is the DM's call, but by the rules an opportunity attack must be a melee attack. From the PHB:
"You can make an opportunity attack when a hostile creature that you can see moves out of your reach. To make the opportunity attack, you use your reaction to make one melee attack against the provoking creature."
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When a creature that you can see within 5 feet of your echo moves at least 5 feet away from it, you can use your reaction to make an opportunity attack against that creature as if you were in the echo's space.
Mm, no, it very clearly says you're using your reaction so that you make the OA (which has been defined in the PHB as a melee attack) as if you were in the space the echo occupies. You use the echo as a portal and your hand comes through and smacks the enemy, basically.
When a creature that you can see within 5 feet of your echo moves at least 5 feet away from it, you can use your reaction to make an opportunity attack against that creature as if you were in the echo's space.
Except for the Echo's effect what? This doesn't contradict what I said. It's still an opportunity attack, and opportunity attacks are by definition still melee attacks. You can't use your bow to make this attack, and a reaction doesn't allow you to draw a weapon as part of it. An unarmed strike is possible, but I don't think that's worth it. You could still apply Sentinel if you hit, but the damage will be peanuts and unarmed strikes don't have the Finesse quality so your chances of hitting are probably going to be low.
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Working on a Raven Queen themed Assassin, I know it wont ever likely be a power house damage dealer but to be able to play without feeling too ****** in the group and making up for less damage in utility. open to class order changes and even total levels in each.
Haunted one Shadar Kai
Survival, Investigation, Common, Undercommon
Gloom Stalker Ranger 1-4
Stealth, Perception, Athletics
Archery Fighting style
Favored Foe Alternative
Deft Explorer Alternative; 2x Stealth checks, Elvish, Sylvan
Spells: Hunters Mark, Ensnaring Shot
Sharpshooter Feat
Echo Knight Fighter 5-8
Defensive Fighting style
Sentinel Feat
Phantom Rogue 9-12
Acrobatics.
2x Perception, Investigation checks.
Shadow Touched Feat
*Edited to remove Homebrew item.
There is no 'Close Quarters shooter' fighting style, unless you're talking homebrew, in which case we need details. Also, I'd say you should take at least 5 levels in either the ranger or fighter, for Extra Attack. And if you pick fighter, you might as well go for 6 to get the bonus feat - or if you're only going to level 12, gets you to the feats faster.
Also, unless you get a fairly good WIS score, I wouldn't go for any spell that requires a save DC (eg ensnaring strike). I'd go for either zephyr strike, which can give you advantage on a single weapon attack (goes great with sneak attack, no second person needed, and you still don't have to worry about opportunity attacks) or absorb elements, depending on how good your defenses are.
Birgit | Shifter | Sorcerer | Dragonlords
Shayone | Hobgoblin | Sorcerer | Netherdeep
I thought i had come across it in a weekly UA and saw it listed somewhere not Homebrew. Looking closer its not, so instead i'll just take Defense for +1 AC. and I'm more likely to drop 1 lvl fighter to do 5th Gloom Stalker for Rope Trick.
You should be fine in the damage department regardless. Personally I'd drop one of the three classes - any one really, depending on what you're looking for most in the character. Increasing either of the two remaining ones to lvl 8 would work quite nicely, though Rog 6/Ftr 6 and Rog 7/Rgr 5 are good splits too.
If you're looking for utility, you should probably start with Rogue. Can't beat the number of skill proficiencies that nets you; you'd still end up with the same number you have now even if you dropped Ranger and one more if you dropped Fighter. If you do stick with these three classes it's a net gain of one.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
so the whole goal is to be as close to the ideal I have in my mind of how a Shadar-Kai would be like. the Darkness bonuses from Gloom, the disconnect of a body pseudo filled by Echo Knight with a flavor/visual adjustment (ie instead of an echo of past/future self, a Shadow of self still in the Fell aiding me) and the Phantom grants me the kind of soul/memory collecting of the dead that fits the Raven Queen's servants. I do want that extra attack. and stated I would probably drop 1 fighter for 1 ranger to get it and Rope Trick, as the Echo with the Sentinel feat I'm only able to use 1/3 of it so its kind of an expensive shoehorned perk to help with squeaking a little bit more potential dmg..
I get wanting to illustrate every aspect of your concept, it just feels like you end up spreading yourself very thin. Is the Invisibility from Shadow Touched particularly Shadowfell-like? I don't know. I'd think you're more about hiding in the shadows than going magically invisible. Sentinel doesn't work at all unless you're going to switch to a melee weapon: an opportunity attack is a melee attack by definition. That's two feats I'd shift to the 'maybe' pile - Sentinel to the 'probably not' pile really. Getting that extra attack or an extra sneak attack die will do much more for shoring up your damage potential anyway.
As for Phantom, it's not like you can't simply flavour this yourself without needing the actual class to back it up. Your Ranger spells could be wrested from souls your trapped for instance, or they could cloak you when you try to hide (Stealth proficiency) or guide your eyes towards danger (Perception proficiency). You can incorporate a lot into your character without it all having to be on the nose.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
direct from TCoE for Shadow Touched "Your exposure to the Shadowfell's magic has changed you, granting you the following benefits:" - this is the One feat I'm admittedly going to be stubborn about because adding a free 1st lvl Illusion/Necromancy spell based on my party needs Is just too tempting to pass up.
So the wording on Sentinel
"Whenever you hit a creature with an opportunity attack, its speed drops to 0 for the rest of the turn. This stops any movement they may have been taking."
and the Manifest Echo
"When a creature that you can see within 5 feet of your echo moves at least 5 feet away from it, you can use your reaction to make an opportunity attack against that creature as if you were in the echo's space."
one thought was that I use the stealth tools to sneak up and pop him behind the enemy, to my knowledge it makes no noise/does not alert to its manifestation, therefore no one should notice it unless they turn around. so when the enemy goes to move towards the party I should be able to utilize this aspect. However I do agree it is very niche and likely not going to get as much mileage as I'd hope out of it. but as a bonus action to pop him in within 15 feet of anywhere to potentially get an AoO on a retreating/charging enemy and halting them seemed like a very nice control tool.
If you have been able to find a resource on this as I've tried looking. I cant find any errata or clarification on when you do get the opportunity attack from enemy moving away from Echo, on what weapon/attack you get. As far as my and my general DM are interpreting it is just like how me shooting an arrow would then manifest from them. it would be the same cause for the opportunity attack.
Again I wholly agree Sentinel is the weakest choice of feats atm, and I'm fairly sold on dropping a level in Fighter for the Ranger one to shore up the extra attack.
I do appreciate the dialog though! in case it seems as I'm being over argumentative.
For the clarification on Echo opportunity attacks, check out this FAQ from the fighter forum. Search for the word 'Sentinel.'
Birgit | Shifter | Sorcerer | Dragonlords
Shayone | Hobgoblin | Sorcerer | Netherdeep
That's where I found the idea for it. and it has the same precepts i have listed. only the first part works. other two require them to be from me only.
Not being noticed is the DM's call, but by the rules an opportunity attack must be a melee attack. From the PHB:
"You can make an opportunity attack when a hostile creature that you can see moves out of your reach. To make the opportunity attack, you use your reaction to make one melee attack against the provoking creature."
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
except for the Echo's effect.
Mm, no, it very clearly says you're using your reaction so that you make the OA (which has been defined in the PHB as a melee attack) as if you were in the space the echo occupies. You use the echo as a portal and your hand comes through and smacks the enemy, basically.
Birgit | Shifter | Sorcerer | Dragonlords
Shayone | Hobgoblin | Sorcerer | Netherdeep
Except for the Echo's effect what? This doesn't contradict what I said. It's still an opportunity attack, and opportunity attacks are by definition still melee attacks. You can't use your bow to make this attack, and a reaction doesn't allow you to draw a weapon as part of it. An unarmed strike is possible, but I don't think that's worth it. You could still apply Sentinel if you hit, but the damage will be peanuts and unarmed strikes don't have the Finesse quality so your chances of hitting are probably going to be low.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].