I'm a little unsure on how to utilise this cantrip. On the surface, I thought the idea was that you hit them with it, retreat, and then the enemy has a choice of either pursuing you/attacking someone else and sucking up 1d8 thunder damage, or staying within 5ft of where it started its turn. It's a nice bonus to add to your attack - either extra damage or pinning your opponent to a place that they can't retaliate.
Then I realised that doing that would, in most cases, provoke an Attack of Opportunity, because you have to be within 5ft of them to start the cantrip, then for it to work I'd have to leave that 5ft range which happens to be the range of most attacks, creating an AoO for them, defying the point. Then really, I'm trading an AoO for the opportunity to deal 1d8 thunder...doesn't seem quite so great.
Is that the intent? Or is it just intended as a soft version of compelled duel - fight me, or take 1d8 thunder damage if you go for someone else? Or am I just missing something?
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
I'm a little unsure on how to utilise this cantrip. On the surface, I thought the idea was that you hit them with it, retreat, and then the enemy has a choice of either pursuing you/attacking someone else and sucking up 1d8 thunder damage, or staying within 5ft of where it started its turn. It's a nice bonus to add to your attack - either extra damage or pinning your opponent to a place that they can't retaliate.
Then I realised that doing that would, in most cases, provoke an Attack of Opportunity, because you have to be within 5ft of them to start the cantrip, then for it to work I'd have to leave that 5ft range which happens to be the range of most attacks, creating an AoO for them, defying the point. Then really, I'm trading an AoO for the opportunity to deal 1d8 thunder...doesn't seem quite so great.
Is that the intent? Or is it just intended as a soft version of compelled duel - fight me, or take 1d8 thunder damage if you go for someone else? Or am I just missing something?
That's a good tactic on something like an Arcane Trickster Rogue, where you can take a disengage bonus action. You just have to feel it out and find uses depending on how your DM runs his enemies.
Greenflame Blade is more predictable. If two enemies are together, the extra damage triggers. I would recommend taking both cantrips, and always use GFB when enemies are next to each other.
The other thing to consider is at Level 5+ both of these cantrips do extra damage even if the triggering effect does not happen. They'll just do more damage if the effect triggers.
I'm a little unsure on how to utilise this cantrip. On the surface, I thought the idea was that you hit them with it, retreat, and then the enemy has a choice of either pursuing you/attacking someone else and sucking up 1d8 thunder damage, or staying within 5ft of where it started its turn. It's a nice bonus to add to your attack - either extra damage or pinning your opponent to a place that they can't retaliate.
Then I realised that doing that would, in most cases, provoke an Attack of Opportunity, because you have to be within 5ft of them to start the cantrip, then for it to work I'd have to leave that 5ft range which happens to be the range of most attacks, creating an AoO for them, defying the point. Then really, I'm trading an AoO for the opportunity to deal 1d8 thunder...doesn't seem quite so great.
Is that the intent? Or is it just intended as a soft version of compelled duel - fight me, or take 1d8 thunder damage if you go for someone else? Or am I just missing something?
It's going to depend on what build you have what the ramifications of the attack would be. If you are a swashbuckler rogue 3 or have the Mobile feat, then you have no concern about the AoO since you won't trigger one, which also works for casters that have a bonus action teleport like Misty Step (which comes by default with the Fey Touched feat. For other rogues, monks, goblins or other characters that can either get a bonus action disengage or a second action disengage (Action Surge, creatures affected by Haste, for example) may choose to disengage after attacking.
There are other instances where drawing the AoO might be advantageous. If you have a high AC like an Eldritch Knight, you might rely on that fact to try to lock down/kill a creature while starting on another (perhaps after you've acquired War Magic). If you've got a Cavalier that's marked the creature, an ally with Protection fighting style or Interception Fighting Style, Ancestral Guardians barbarians or other features that trigger off of attacks or hits, it may be beneficial to drop a Booming Blade on the creature, have the enemy burn their reaction on you while giving your ally a way to use their feature (which could include an extra attack that might be worth more than your attack and the potential damage you take).
This list isn't exhaustive of the tactics that you could use to mitigate the danger of drawing an AoO or using it as a risk/reward tactic, but should give you an idea of what things that you can look for, particularly in group settings.
If you have the Crusher feat from Tashas you can push the opponent back 5ft, and the Mobile feat lets you move away w/o provoking.
The creature has to move willingly to trigger the booming blade effects.
But you wouldn't have to disengage to leave their range without provoking an AoO, assuming their range for AoOs is only 5 ft, which is fairly likely if you can move them with Crusher.
It does depend on what class you are. I think this spell was built for use by the Arcane Trickster. Most other classes it will be sub-optimal.
If you are a class that attacks once per round (ex. Rogue try to SA) then you get a lot out of the bonus dmg. Even without the enemy moving Booming Blade will do 1d8 dmg at lvl 5 when you attack and the dmg scales well.
If you are a ranged class (probably a wizard/sorcerer/etc.) this could be an option for melee. It provides a base damage that scales well, but really you should be running away. However, subclasses like Bladesinger/Hexblade/Eldritch Knight might enjoy this because they have unique class features that fit.
On the other hand, if you are a Fighter/Ranger or other front line class that has Extra Attack then this is very situational because you can't use this and extra attack (note: the exception is Bladesinger who can both cast a cantrip and extra attack!).
Other considerations could be:
If you want to have some area control and don't want the enemy to just run away from you. This can be good on casters and ranged enemies.
If you have the Mobile feat or Cunning Action (Rogue) and can disengage after attacking.
If you want Thunder dmg (very good damage type that isn't resisted by many creatures).
It's also just a pure tanking spell that works well for an Eldritch Knight, where you want the enemy to remain in combat with you. It works from levels 1-4 before you get Extra Attack, then again from level 7-10 when you have War Magic. Unfortunately, just Extra Attack is better levels 5-6 and 11+, but it's good prior to that.
I was playing as a Goblin in a campaign a while back and Booming Blade was my go-to attack. The Volo's Goblin can disengage as a bonus action regardless of class, which really opens you up to be able to take advantage of Booming Blade without needing to either multiclass into Rogue or spend an ASI on a feat.
Its also really good if you have the War Caster feat for free extra damage on your AoOs and/or if you're a gish character with a few levels in sorcerer, letting you quicken booming blade as a bonus action.
It does depend on what class you are. I think this spell was built for use by the Arcane Trickster. Most other classes it will be sub-optimal.
If you are a class that attacks once per round (ex. Rogue try to SA) then you get a lot out of the bonus dmg. Even without the enemy moving Booming Blade will do 1d8 dmg at lvl 5 when you attack and the dmg scales well.
If you are a ranged class (probably a wizard/sorcerer/etc.) this could be an option for melee. It provides a base damage that scales well, but really you should be running away. However, something like Bladesinger or Hexblade might enjoy this.
On the other hand, if you are a class that has Extra Attack then this is very situational because you can't use this and extra attack.
Other considerations could be:
If you want to have some area control and don't want the enemy to just run away from you. This can be good on casters and ranged enemies.
If you have the Mobile feat or Cunning Action (Rogue) and can disengage after attacking.
If you want Thunder dmg (very good damage type that isn't resisted by many creatures).
You did mention that it could be interesting on Bladesinger, but then mentioned that it is situational at best with extra attack. It should be mentioned that bladesinger is an exception to the situational at best classification of Extra Attack classes/subclasses because they can cast a cantrip as part of their extra attack.
It should also be mentioned that because of the scaling of the damage of the cantrip, it can remain competitive with extra attack. It's average damage won't top the average damage of the bigger weapons without the bonus damage hitting and likely some way to add your spellcasting modifier to the damage. If you are an Eldritch Knight with a greatsword, 2 attacks at 5th would be 4d6+str mod x2. Assuming 18 strength, that's 22 average damage. 1 attack plus Booming Blade is 2d6 + str mod + 1d8 + (1d8 if they move) or 15.5 (20). A sword and board with a 1d8 attack is 17 average damage. Depending on what you value the creature not moving to be, it can be a much better scenario even losing out on the 6.5 average damage (the situational area of the discussion) but with a 1d8 or lower attack, you are at worst 1.5 average damage below 2 attacks. It's a lot easier to make that situational math come out ahead than the 6.5, which ties into the earlier comment that it's a good tanking cantrip to take on non barbarians. Thus, it may not be better damage wise, it can remain competitive.
If you have the Crusher feat from Tashas you can push the opponent back 5ft, and the Mobile feat lets you move away w/o provoking.
The creature has to move willingly to trigger the booming blade effects.
But you wouldn't have to disengage to leave their range without provoking an AoO, assuming their range for AoOs is only 5 ft, which is fairly likely if you can move them with Crusher.
To maximize the potential of Booming Blade, you would need to deploy the Hit and Run strategy ie make the enemy chase you after you damage them. The cantrip provides the hit part and the player has to figure out the other half of the equation which is the run bit.
Now as already mentioned there are many ways to do this like the Rogue's bonus action Disengage, the Mobile feat and the Crusher feat. Spells and effects like Misty Step also fit the bill. There is also the Pushing Attack maneuver and my personal favorite the spell Zephyr Strike.
Also mentioned is using it with Warcaster on enemies that try to leave your reach, but a cheekier method is hitting them with a Dissonant Whispers spell beforehand.
The way I see it, booming blade provides a way to delay extra attack, but still keep up somewhat in damage.
Say you're a hexblade, and you have to decide between taking thirsting blade or not at lvl 5. Say you attack twice with a longsword, that's 1d8+4, or 8.5 per swing, or 17 a round. If you used booming blade instead, that's just 13 a round. Yes, it's less than 17, but the damage somewhat keeps up. It's definitely better than 8.5, for sure.
In other gish builds, booming blade gives you a method to keep up while you wait until you unlock extra attack. If a paladin dipped two levels into hexblade, they'd have to wait until 7 to get extra attack. Until then, booming blade gives a decent option to fall back on.
Then there are ways to utilize booming blade to keep up in damage. I like using telekinetic for that purpose. Let's assume the same hexblade, he started 17 in CHA and used telekinetic to boost up to 18 at 4, and now he's skipping thirsting blade. But, at lvl 5 every round he uses booming blade for 13 per action, but uses his bonus action for the push. If his target fails the saving throw, they'll be pushed and might move on their turn, taking an extra 9 damage. He goes from 13 DPR to 22 DPR, surpassing a longsword extra attack build.
artificer, sorcerer or wizard readies shocking grasp to attempt to hit just after opponents attack. On a hit opponent can't use reaction and the shocker shockingly steps back. Other artificers, sorcerers or wizards and warlocks attack with booming blade and step back.
There's actually debate on whether Booming Blade can be used as an opportunity attack paired with Warcaster. The problem is that Tasha's errata's Booming Blade to target Self (since you're essentially casting the spell on your own weapon, then using it to attack), but Warcaster only allows spells that Target just the creature that triggered the opportunity attack.
Then there's also debate on whether the creature automatically triggers the booming effect, since it's the act of moving away that triggers the OA, or whether the creature can recognize that it's been hit, then choose to remain in place. Although I suppose it makes sense that a creature doesn't need to complete its movement to trigger on OA, otherwise Sentinel wouldn't be able to pin a target in place.
There's actually debate on whether Booming Blade can be used as an opportunity attack paired with Warcaster. The problem is that Tasha's errata's Booming Blade to target Self (since you're essentially casting the spell on your own weapon, then using it to attack), but Warcaster only allows spells that Target just the creature that triggered the opportunity attack.
Then there's also debate on whether the creature automatically triggers the booming effect, since it's the act of moving away that triggers the OA, or whether the creature can recognize that it's been hit, then choose to remain in place. Although I suppose it makes sense that a creature doesn't need to complete its movement to trigger on OA, otherwise Sentinel wouldn't be able to pin a target in place.
Jeremy Crawford clarified that it does still work.
That doesn't end the debate. Jeremy Crawfords tweets do not count as part of the rules unless they make it into the SAC. (He has actually made a couple of contrdictory tweets). At best you can see it is RAI but for RAW all you have is SCAG.
Honestly, I think it makes more sense that Booming Blade is compatible with Warcaster. As a DM I wouldn't take the rules so 100% literally, and aside from the spell saying that it targets "self", every other aspect of how the spell works makes perfect sense.
I'm a little unsure on how to utilise this cantrip. On the surface, I thought the idea was that you hit them with it, retreat, and then the enemy has a choice of either pursuing you/attacking someone else and sucking up 1d8 thunder damage, or staying within 5ft of where it started its turn. It's a nice bonus to add to your attack - either extra damage or pinning your opponent to a place that they can't retaliate.
Then I realised that doing that would, in most cases, provoke an Attack of Opportunity, because you have to be within 5ft of them to start the cantrip, then for it to work I'd have to leave that 5ft range which happens to be the range of most attacks, creating an AoO for them, defying the point. Then really, I'm trading an AoO for the opportunity to deal 1d8 thunder...doesn't seem quite so great.
Is that the intent? Or is it just intended as a soft version of compelled duel - fight me, or take 1d8 thunder damage if you go for someone else? Or am I just missing something?
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
That's a good tactic on something like an Arcane Trickster Rogue, where you can take a disengage bonus action. You just have to feel it out and find uses depending on how your DM runs his enemies.
Greenflame Blade is more predictable. If two enemies are together, the extra damage triggers. I would recommend taking both cantrips, and always use GFB when enemies are next to each other.
The other thing to consider is at Level 5+ both of these cantrips do extra damage even if the triggering effect does not happen. They'll just do more damage if the effect triggers.
It's going to depend on what build you have what the ramifications of the attack would be. If you are a swashbuckler rogue 3 or have the Mobile feat, then you have no concern about the AoO since you won't trigger one, which also works for casters that have a bonus action teleport like Misty Step (which comes by default with the Fey Touched feat. For other rogues, monks, goblins or other characters that can either get a bonus action disengage or a second action disengage (Action Surge, creatures affected by Haste, for example) may choose to disengage after attacking.
There are other instances where drawing the AoO might be advantageous. If you have a high AC like an Eldritch Knight, you might rely on that fact to try to lock down/kill a creature while starting on another (perhaps after you've acquired War Magic). If you've got a Cavalier that's marked the creature, an ally with Protection fighting style or Interception Fighting Style, Ancestral Guardians barbarians or other features that trigger off of attacks or hits, it may be beneficial to drop a Booming Blade on the creature, have the enemy burn their reaction on you while giving your ally a way to use their feature (which could include an extra attack that might be worth more than your attack and the potential damage you take).
This list isn't exhaustive of the tactics that you could use to mitigate the danger of drawing an AoO or using it as a risk/reward tactic, but should give you an idea of what things that you can look for, particularly in group settings.
If you have the Crusher feat from Tashas you can push the opponent back 5ft, and the Mobile feat lets you move away w/o provoking.
The creature has to move willingly to trigger the booming blade effects.
But you wouldn't have to disengage to leave their range without provoking an AoO, assuming their range for AoOs is only 5 ft, which is fairly likely if you can move them with Crusher.
It does depend on what class you are. I think this spell was built for use by the Arcane Trickster. Most other classes it will be sub-optimal.
Other considerations could be:
For RP purposes this can be quite fun as well.
See this thread on Min-Maxing Booming Blade/GFB.
It's also just a pure tanking spell that works well for an Eldritch Knight, where you want the enemy to remain in combat with you. It works from levels 1-4 before you get Extra Attack, then again from level 7-10 when you have War Magic. Unfortunately, just Extra Attack is better levels 5-6 and 11+, but it's good prior to that.
I was playing as a Goblin in a campaign a while back and Booming Blade was my go-to attack. The Volo's Goblin can disengage as a bonus action regardless of class, which really opens you up to be able to take advantage of Booming Blade without needing to either multiclass into Rogue or spend an ASI on a feat.
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Its also really good if you have the War Caster feat for free extra damage on your AoOs and/or if you're a gish character with a few levels in sorcerer, letting you quicken booming blade as a bonus action.
You did mention that it could be interesting on Bladesinger, but then mentioned that it is situational at best with extra attack. It should be mentioned that bladesinger is an exception to the situational at best classification of Extra Attack classes/subclasses because they can cast a cantrip as part of their extra attack.
It should also be mentioned that because of the scaling of the damage of the cantrip, it can remain competitive with extra attack. It's average damage won't top the average damage of the bigger weapons without the bonus damage hitting and likely some way to add your spellcasting modifier to the damage. If you are an Eldritch Knight with a greatsword, 2 attacks at 5th would be 4d6+str mod x2. Assuming 18 strength, that's 22 average damage. 1 attack plus Booming Blade is 2d6 + str mod + 1d8 + (1d8 if they move) or 15.5 (20). A sword and board with a 1d8 attack is 17 average damage. Depending on what you value the creature not moving to be, it can be a much better scenario even losing out on the 6.5 average damage (the situational area of the discussion) but with a 1d8 or lower attack, you are at worst 1.5 average damage below 2 attacks. It's a lot easier to make that situational math come out ahead than the 6.5, which ties into the earlier comment that it's a good tanking cantrip to take on non barbarians. Thus, it may not be better damage wise, it can remain competitive.
That’s a good point.
To maximize the potential of Booming Blade, you would need to deploy the Hit and Run strategy ie make the enemy chase you after you damage them. The cantrip provides the hit part and the player has to figure out the other half of the equation which is the run bit.
Now as already mentioned there are many ways to do this like the Rogue's bonus action Disengage, the Mobile feat and the Crusher feat. Spells and effects like Misty Step also fit the bill. There is also the Pushing Attack maneuver and my personal favorite the spell Zephyr Strike.
Also mentioned is using it with Warcaster on enemies that try to leave your reach, but a cheekier method is hitting them with a Dissonant Whispers spell beforehand.
The way I see it, booming blade provides a way to delay extra attack, but still keep up somewhat in damage.
Say you're a hexblade, and you have to decide between taking thirsting blade or not at lvl 5. Say you attack twice with a longsword, that's 1d8+4, or 8.5 per swing, or 17 a round. If you used booming blade instead, that's just 13 a round. Yes, it's less than 17, but the damage somewhat keeps up. It's definitely better than 8.5, for sure.
In other gish builds, booming blade gives you a method to keep up while you wait until you unlock extra attack. If a paladin dipped two levels into hexblade, they'd have to wait until 7 to get extra attack. Until then, booming blade gives a decent option to fall back on.
Then there are ways to utilize booming blade to keep up in damage. I like using telekinetic for that purpose. Let's assume the same hexblade, he started 17 in CHA and used telekinetic to boost up to 18 at 4, and now he's skipping thirsting blade. But, at lvl 5 every round he uses booming blade for 13 per action, but uses his bonus action for the push. If his target fails the saving throw, they'll be pushed and might move on their turn, taking an extra 9 damage. He goes from 13 DPR to 22 DPR, surpassing a longsword extra attack build.
artificer, sorcerer or wizard readies shocking grasp to attempt to hit just after opponents attack. On a hit opponent can't use reaction and the shocker shockingly steps back. Other artificers, sorcerers or wizards and warlocks attack with booming blade and step back.
There's actually debate on whether Booming Blade can be used as an opportunity attack paired with Warcaster. The problem is that Tasha's errata's Booming Blade to target Self (since you're essentially casting the spell on your own weapon, then using it to attack), but Warcaster only allows spells that Target just the creature that triggered the opportunity attack.
Then there's also debate on whether the creature automatically triggers the booming effect, since it's the act of moving away that triggers the OA, or whether the creature can recognize that it's been hit, then choose to remain in place. Although I suppose it makes sense that a creature doesn't need to complete its movement to trigger on OA, otherwise Sentinel wouldn't be able to pin a target in place.
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The only thing that the Tasha's Errata of Booming/Green Flame Blade spells achieved was to make it more confusing lol.
Jeremy Crawford clarified that it does still work.
https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/1326596181560942593?s=21
That doesn't end the debate. Jeremy Crawfords tweets do not count as part of the rules unless they make it into the SAC. (He has actually made a couple of contrdictory tweets). At best you can see it is RAI but for RAW all you have is SCAG.
Honestly, I think it makes more sense that Booming Blade is compatible with Warcaster. As a DM I wouldn't take the rules so 100% literally, and aside from the spell saying that it targets "self", every other aspect of how the spell works makes perfect sense.
Watch Crits for Breakfast, an adults-only RP-Heavy Roll20 Livestream at twitch.tv/afterdisbooty
And now you too can play with the amazing art and assets we use in Roll20 for our campaign at Hazel's Emporium